Plo gel

[theslime]

I would appreciate your feedback on this product. Would it be as effective as a homebrewed gel or more effective? It has different ingredients. Anyone used somehing like this before? http://www.ironapothecary.com

 

[diamonddave]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20031

This is a thread that discusses it in some detail. You have to get to about message #25 or so before this gel is discussed. It's a good read, none the less.

dd

 

[Strateg0s]

There is a much better formulation (Phlojel Ultra) available at Phlojel.us.

There is a sizeable discussion of it at Avant Labs, do a search.

 

[former_SlimJim]

That kit in the iron apothecary looks like the older two-part Plo products. The Phlojel "Ultra" is supposed to be much better. I searched all over the net about the product and have only found good reviews. I have never used it before, but I ordered some for my next cycle. I'll be using it next week. Here is the link to the thread on avant labs.... http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=12587

 

[theslime]

Unfortunately, I don't live in the US and phlojel only delivers in the us.

 

[former_SlimJim]

Brock on this board has used both t-gel and Phlojel Ultra. He felt the Phlogel Ultra worked better. It's very cheap too in comparison. See post #11 in this link.... http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20916

 

[former_SlimJim]

Unfortunately, I don't live in the US and phlojel only delivers in the us.

You can get it out of Canada from this supplier......http://www.globaldrugs.com/pharmacy/natnrx.htm Scroll down in the list until you find "Phlogel Ultra". I've never bought off them before, but I see they have it listed.

 

[vafla]

You can get it out of Canada from this supplier......http://www.globaldrugs.com/pharmacy/natnrx.htm Scroll down in the list until you find "Phlogel Ultra". I've never bought off them before, but I see they have it listed.

is that the

"PLO PREMIXED TRANSDERMA 500G US$ 69.80"?

 

[former_SlimJim]

is that the

"PLO PREMIXED TRANSDERMA 500G US$ 69.80"?

No. What I am refering to is only the following two items:

"PHLOJEL ULTRA 100G US$16.64"

or

"PHLOJEL ULTRA 450G US$69.80"

The PLO and other Phlojel products are NOT the same although I am the wrong guy to tell you what the differences are. If you want to try and figure out the differences here is J.A.R. Pharmaceutical's website for their Phlojel products. http://www.phlojel.com For prohormone transdermal delivery, the "Phlojel Ultra" is the product to use.

 

[theslime]

Thanks for the link. How many grams of test base can you put per 100 g of gel?

 

[Strateg0s]

90g in 450g, so 20g in 100g. 200mg/ml using the methods described in the thread at Avant Labs.

 

[former_SlimJim]

To get 200mg/ml, Triceptor recommends you make a paste out of the ph by mixing it with some ethyl alcohol before adding it to the gel - otherwise you may get some clumping. You can get 150mg/ml without using the ethyl. By the way, 1g of gel is 1ml if you haven't already figured that out.

 

[Strateg0s]

Hey, FSJ, what estimate do you have for the efficiency of delivery, of either T-Gel/Dermabolics or the Phlojel Ultra? If you've seen my article in MindAndMuscle.net you've seen how I calculate this. If you've also used injectibles, your feedback could be invaluable.

 

[theslime]

Thanks guys. I still have a few questions:

1. I have some peg-400 left. Could I use that instead of the ethyl alcohol? There is no everclear where I live. If so, how much?

2. Once the substance is in, do you just mix it with a spoon until it is the right consistency?

3. What dosage is recommended? Absorption?

4. How do you measure it? Wouldn'T it clog a push tube?

 

[former_SlimJim]

Hey, FSJ, what estimate do you have for the efficiency of delivery, of either T-Gel/Dermabolics or the Phlojel Ultra? If you've seen my article in MindAndMuscle.net you've seen how I calculate this. If you've also used injectibles, your feedback could be invaluable.

I did alot of searching on this product and other transdermals over the last couple of weeks. I vaguely remember something about estimating efficiency so I probably did read your article. If my memory serves me right, Triceptor stated the delivery of test was 60% using Phlojel Ultra and that was from of a study done evaluating its use in test therapy for hypogonadal men. If the 60% is true, that would make it better than the alcohol based products. I have never pinned or done any other transdermals so I'm not going to be of much help in comparing the product to other transdermals or methods. I've only done oral ph's to this point.

 

[Strateg0s]

I think 50% was a high estimate. A number of factors influence the degree of penetration. Par Deus, who knows more about transdermals than almost anyone, is convinced that with the addition of DMSO, 40-50% penetration can be achieved using his formula (which has been bought and now sold as Dermabolics, and cloned by everyone else). I think that Phlojel Ultra plus d-limolene, octyl s___ (drawing a blank), DMSO, and the proper method of application, 50% could be expected.

 

[former_SlimJim]

Strat,

I did read your article I just didn't realize it was yours. I reread it last night while I was trying to find some more absorption references. That's an excellent writeup by the way. The only direct reference that I have for the lecithin organogels like PJU is here... http://www.jabfp.org/cgi/reprint/14/1/22 They stated the absorption efficiency varied per patient from 50% to as low as 6% but they don't say how they came to that conclusion. Plus they varied the site of application, amount of test applied, and test concentration in the gel so it's hard to say what is optimum.

Probably the most interesting info I gleaned from the study was the use of the scrotum as the site of application. It appears to be the best site for absorption by this study and they also reference another study of Testoderm -

"Alza researchers originally developed their first patch, Testoderm, to be applied to the shaved scrotum. They found that, compared with other skin sites, the scrotal skin is about five times more efficient at absorbing percutaneously applied steroids."

Also, there is a preferential conversion of test to DHT when it is applied to the scrotum, which could be benefical in reducing estro sides. -

"The dihydrotestosterone levels in the study patients varied greatly from patient to patient. It was obvious, however, from looking at the data that the site of application was the primary determinant of the dihydrotestosterone levels. The 5-a-reductase enzymes are highly concentrated in the skin of the scrotum and those patients who applied the gel to that area had the highest levels. It is possible, therefore, to control the level of dihydrotestosterone by choosing the site of application."

Do you know of anyone that has tried this yet?

 

[Strateg0s]

That would be one HUGE advantage of using Phlojel, but NOT with 1-test. Otherwise, we're talking about "the fire down below" in a bad way. I didn't bring this up in my discussion of transdermals because, well, most people wouldn't be terribly interested in maximizing the efficiency of transdermals to that extent. So, 3-alpha, 4-AD, 4-oht, and the others if so desired, nordiol, 14add, etc. -- these would all be great candidates for this application, 3-alpha in particular.

From the study you linked to, it seems clear that you would be best served by a lower concentration compounding, 3ml of 3% delivered way more anabolic effect than 1ml at 10%. This is obvious, the more transdermal you apply, the better the penetration will be.

Of course, with penetration enhancers like d-limoline and octyl salicylate added to Phlojel Ultra, penetration would be already improved quite a bit. I am not sure that DMSO + scrotal application is a good idea, but then again, I can't say.

 

[ersatz]

Most of the people using dht derivatives in a trans want it for gyno treatment and don't really want it to go systematic so I don't see how this area of application helps. Also given the relative proximity to the prostrate isn't this a bad idea?

 

[Strateg0s]

Yeah this wouldn't be the idea for people who want a gyno treatment. The people I have in mind are those who are keen on using something like M5AA, MDHT, or 5aa-cyp. 3-alpha in the above described transdermal, applied down there, could be a very very cost effective alternative. As to the proximity to the prostrate, if you have prostate issues, be sure to read Patrick Arnold's "Give DHT a Break" in MindAndMuscle.net #23.

 

[former_SlimJim]

Most of the people using dht derivatives in a trans want it for gyno treatment and don't really want it to go systematic so I don't see how this area of application helps. Also given the relative proximity to the prostrate isn't this a bad idea?

The researchers commented on that also,

"An elevated dihydrotestosterone level has been a source of some concern, because of its perceived effects on prostate growth. Even so, researchers reviewing the effects of the Testoderm scrotal patch and other nonscrotal patches have found few problems with prostatism. Other researchers have actually shown a 15% decrease in prostate size on patients using a pure dihydrotestosterone gel. Of great interest is the ability to reduce such side effects as gynecomastia by having a nonaromatizable androgen (dihydrotestosterone) as a major component of the androgen pool. Further research into using dihydrotestosterone as replacement therapy is in progress."

What I noticed in the study was that the patients applying to the scrotum had DHT levels about 3 times higher than the others while their estro levels were close to the same. This in theory should promote leaner, harder gains. Of course, this would only apply to test or a ph that was suceptible to 5- alpha reductase.

 

[vafla]

I'm still not conviced DHT is that good for our purposes (body composition), regardless of what PA says. I want to see this backed up by real world results AND science. I think there's WAY too much 5-AR down there, and this could be corobarated easily with a search in Pubmed

 

[theslime]

Do you guys know how much dht would be considered a good dose? I'm curious about this.

 

[ersatz]

I would think that 30-40mg/day dht would be a good dose. Out of the group of dht precursors I would highly recommend 3-alpha as IMO it's by far the most potent. It has to be used in a trans and contrary to what PA said in his article and the idea of using it on your balls I would highly advise against it. I used it for gyno treatment and it worked really well but I did notice a slight swelling in the prostrate.

 

[triceptor]

Where are you located. We have recently filled a few orders in the UK and have a decent air rate.

Unfortunately, I don't live in the US and phlojel only delivers in the us.