[theslime]

I would appreciate your feedback on this product. Would it be as effective as a homebrewed gel or more effective? It has different ingredients. Anyone used somehing like this before? http://www.ironapothecary.com

[diamonddave]

Where can I get a good gel?

This is a thread that discusses it in some detail. You have to get to about message #25 or so before this gel is discussed. It's a good read, none the less.

dd

[Strateg0s]

There is a much better formulation (Phlojel Ultra) available at Phlojel.us.

There is a sizeable discussion of it at Avant Labs, do a search.

[former_SlimJim]

That kit in the iron apothecary looks like the older two-part Plo products. The Phlojel "Ultra" is supposed to be much better. I searched all over the net about the product and have only found good reviews. I have never used it before, but I ordered some for my next cycle. I'll be using it next week. Here is the link to the thread on avant labs.... http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=12587

[theslime]

Unfortunately, I don't live in the US and phlojel only delivers in the us.

[former_SlimJim]

Brock on this board has used both t-gel and Phlojel Ultra. He felt the Phlogel Ultra worked better. It's very cheap too in comparison. See post #11 in this link.... Phlojel feedback?

[former_SlimJim]

Originally Posted by theslime

Unfortunately, I don't live in the US and phlojel only delivers in the us.

You can get it out of Canada from this supplier......http://www.globaldrugs.com/pharmacy/natnrx.htm Scroll down in the list until you find "Phlogel Ultra". I've never bought off them before, but I see they have it listed.

[vafla]

Originally Posted by former_SlimJim

You can get it out of Canada from this supplier......http://www.globaldrugs.com/pharmacy/natnrx.htm Scroll down in the list until you find "Phlogel Ultra". I've never bought off them before, but I see they have it listed.

is that the

"PLO PREMIXED TRANSDERMA 500G US$ 69.80"?

[former_SlimJim]

Originally Posted by vafla

is that the

"PLO PREMIXED TRANSDERMA 500G US$ 69.80"?

No. What I am refering to is only the following two items:

"PHLOJEL ULTRA 100G US$16.64"

or

"PHLOJEL ULTRA 450G US$69.80"

The PLO and other Phlojel products are NOT the same although I am the wrong guy to tell you what the differences are. If you want to try and figure out the differences here is J.A.R. Pharmaceutical's website for their Phlojel products. http://www.phlojel.com For prohormone transdermal delivery, the "Phlojel Ultra" is the product to use.

[theslime]

Thanks for the link. How many grams of test base can you put per 100 g of gel?

[Strateg0s]

90g in 450g, so 20g in 100g. 200mg/ml using the methods described in the thread at Avant Labs.

[former_SlimJim]

To get 200mg/ml, Triceptor recommends you make a paste out of the ph by mixing it with some ethyl alcohol before adding it to the gel - otherwise you may get some clumping. You can get 150mg/ml without using the ethyl. By the way, 1g of gel is 1ml if you haven't already figured that out.

[Strateg0s]

Hey, FSJ, what estimate do you have for the efficiency of delivery, of either T-Gel/Dermabolics or the Phlojel Ultra? If you've seen my article in MindAndMuscle.net you've seen how I calculate this. If you've also used injectibles, your feedback could be invaluable.

[theslime]

Thanks guys. I still have a few questions:

1. I have some peg-400 left. Could I use that instead of the ethyl alcohol? There is no everclear where I live. If so, how much?

2. Once the substance is in, do you just mix it with a spoon until it is the right consistency?

3. What dosage is recommended? Absorption?

4. How do you measure it? Wouldn'T it clog a push tube?

[former_SlimJim]

Originally Posted by Strateg0s

Hey, FSJ, what estimate do you have for the efficiency of delivery, of either T-Gel/Dermabolics or the Phlojel Ultra? If you've seen my article in MindAndMuscle.net you've seen how I calculate this. If you've also used injectibles, your feedback could be invaluable.

I did alot of searching on this product and other transdermals over the last couple of weeks. I vaguely remember something about estimating efficiency so I probably did read your article. If my memory serves me right, Triceptor stated the delivery of test was 60% using Phlojel Ultra and that was from of a study done evaluating its use in test therapy for hypogonadal men. If the 60% is true, that would make it better than the alcohol based products. I have never pinned or done any other transdermals so I'm not going to be of much help in comparing the product to other transdermals or methods. I've only done oral ph's to this point.

[Strateg0s]

I think 50% was a high estimate. A number of factors influence the degree of penetration. Par Deus, who knows more about transdermals than almost anyone, is convinced that with the addition of DMSO, 40-50% penetration can be achieved using his formula (which has been bought and now sold as Dermabolics, and cloned by everyone else). I think that Phlojel Ultra plus d-limolene, octyl s___ (drawing a blank), DMSO, and the proper method of application, 50% could be expected.

[former_SlimJim]

Strat,

I did read your article I just didn't realize it was yours. I reread it last night while I was trying to find some more absorption references. That's an excellent writeup by the way. The only direct reference that I have for the lecithin organogels like PJU is here... http://www.jabfp.org/cgi/reprint/14/1/22 They stated the absorption efficiency varied per patient from 50% to as low as 6% but they don't say how they came to that conclusion. Plus they varied the site of application, amount of test applied, and test concentration in the gel so it's hard to say what is optimum.

Probably the most interesting info I gleaned from the study was the use of the scrotum as the site of application. It appears to be the best site for absorption by this study and they also reference another study of Testoderm -

"Alza researchers originally developed their first patch, Testoderm, to be applied to the shaved scrotum. They found that, compared with other skin sites, the scrotal skin is about five times more efficient at absorbing percutaneously applied steroids."

Also, there is a preferential conversion of test to DHT when it is applied to the scrotum, which could be benefical in reducing estro sides. -

"The dihydrotestosterone levels in the study patients varied greatly from patient to patient. It was obvious, however, from looking at the data that the site of application was the primary determinant of the dihydrotestosterone levels. The 5-a-reductase enzymes are highly concentrated in the skin of the scrotum and those patients who applied the gel to that area had the highest levels. It is possible, therefore, to control the level of dihydrotestosterone by choosing the site of application."

Do you know of anyone that has tried this yet?

[Strateg0s]

That would be one HUGE advantage of using Phlojel, but NOT with 1-test. Otherwise, we're talking about "the fire down below" in a bad way. I didn't bring this up in my discussion of transdermals because, well, most people wouldn't be terribly interested in maximizing the efficiency of transdermals to that extent. So, 3-alpha, 4-AD, 4-oht, and the others if so desired, nordiol, 14add, etc. -- these would all be great candidates for this application, 3-alpha in particular.

From the study you linked to, it seems clear that you would be best served by a lower concentration compounding, 3ml of 3% delivered way more anabolic effect than 1ml at 10%. This is obvious, the more transdermal you apply, the better the penetration will be.

Of course, with penetration enhancers like d-limoline and octyl salicylate added to Phlojel Ultra, penetration would be already improved quite a bit. I am not sure that DMSO + scrotal application is a good idea, but then again, I can't say.