Let's talk about local delivery (AGAIN)!!
04-15-2004 10:29 AM
Let's talk about local delivery (AGAIN)!!
I'm not the best scientist to refute or back up these claims, but Big Cat has definitely raised the bar (it seems) on topical discussion here, comments??
04-15-2004 10:57 AM
Bump for thoughts of those who can back up or refute what he's saying.
04-15-2004 02:18 PM
so basically what he's saying is if you apply the dmso and wait 5 to 10 minutes than apply say a t-gel solution your absorption rate would increase. Any bros of great knowledge please offer your input please, because if this is true it would make a dermal cycle a great choice.
04-15-2004 02:31 PM
Yes he is saying tha,t but more importantly he saying the BA mix would support localized delivery of the pro/hormone.
Originally Posted by BROTHER AT ARMS
04-15-2004 03:16 PM
pretty much, yeah. He's saying that BA would act as the carrier, and the rest (acetone and isopropanol) evaporates and acts as a funneling systemf or the BA to then penetrate ( something to that effect).
Originally Posted by jminis
"Nimni's idea was simple : make the compound that needs to be delivered stable and amphiphillic and you can get substantial local delivery, with very minimal systemic delivery. This gives a predominantly localized effect, with minimum systemic (side-)effects. As research has previously demonstrated, benzyl alcohol can form micelles with organic ingredients, like most drugs used, in an aqueous environment. That means if you dissolve the products in benzyl alcohol you form an amphiphillic complex that can pass the skin and is taken up locally in the subcutaneous tissue to a great extent. Simply using benzyl alcohol and your product would already allow for local delivery, especially since benzyl is also a good penetrant of the skin due to its amphiphillic properties. But Nimni's system consisted of two phases. The second phase being a mixture of acetone and isopropanol. Both these solvents are very volatile and have both been shown to enhance skin permeation (Onken and Moyer, 1963). The idea is that the acetone and isopropanol make the skin more permeable and then evaporate, creating a sort of funneling effect that leaves the product entirely dissolved in the less volatile benzyl alcohol, which forms the amphiphillic micelles and carries the product across the skin. It transfers as it were, from one phase to another, and hence was dubbed the trans-phase delivery system by Nimni and his associates (Nimni et al, 1997)."
04-16-2004 01:59 PM
Hmmm, I suppose another important question would be-
Would you have any skin left after dosing all those chems for a few weeks?
04-19-2004 09:35 AM
well that's what I'm wondering - even if acetone would prove to be a good helper here, what are the consequences to the skin?!
04-23-2004 06:10 PM
Quite mild. i'd be more worried about the DMSO. Since it is applied prior, it makes it hard to not overdose it, and overdosing can cause severe skin irritation and some nasty breath.
This is just the beginning by the way, this is just to demonstrate that your average company owner finds something and runs with it, without knowing all the details or trying to make the best possible product. However i'm currently in the midst of adressing the Penetration enhancement problem, i'm convinced I can make a PE complex that comprises less than 2% of the delivery vehicle and that can increase absorption considerably compared to any known system of percutaneous penetration enhancement.
All of what was adressed in the BB.com thread was previously adressed here at AM. It may have been a bit shaded and not so easy to read because Par Deus chose to interfere and call me some names in between, but its all there. The BB.com thread has nothing new in it.
04-25-2004 01:00 PM
After reviewing the literature, I do agree with alot of what big cat says, there are a few things im concerned about but I will adress them later.
I do think that the benzyl alcohol will work good as a local delivery system for fat loss agents, but to use it in a formula to deliver androgens is another story. I dont think we are going to keep the androgen from being delivered systematically in a large portion. Sure, the BA is going to help keep some of the androgen local, but wiht the other PE's alot is going to be absorbed systematically (defeating the purpose). I also feel that delievering the androgen locally is not going to be an effective way of producing "selective muscle growth". In my opinion, if you read pars article on this, you will see many flaws in it. I mean no disrespect to par, but I have to disagree with most of his theories behind the localization.
04-25-2004 03:21 PM
I agree with you, the compounds are too lipophillic for sufficient local delivery to actually call it local delivert. I have several compounds that would not only be more suitable for local delivery, but will elicit a more localized anabolic response as well. However, these 'flaws' do not mean that local delivery of androgens is entirely without effect. just that it is not ideal.
05-03-2004 11:20 PM
The acetone scares me as i dont think it is a good compound to be putting into the bloodstream, as well as on my skin. Even nail polish removers are quick to make note of the fact that they are acetone free, so I am sure that it can not be that good of a substance. I am not saying that it will not work, I just think that the consequences might outweigh the benefits. Any possible substitures Big Cat???? Or is the use of acetone, not really something to be worried about
05-04-2004 02:47 PM
Not something to worry about, I get acetone on my skin at the lab almost every day when I'm drying material. So I'm not likely to look for a substitute, but yes, I imagine there are several substitutes. In fact if you don't care about the superior permeation enhancement of acetone to other volatile ingredients (I imagine pretreatment with DMSO would make it that much less important anyway) then basically any volatile substance that dissolves organic compounds and has a different evaporation rate than isopropanol would work. And if you scour the literature, i'm quite sure you'll find a few others that have some sort of permeation enhancement as well as the desired properties for the funneling effect.
Then again, I imagine regular DMSO treatment probably is more detrimental to the skin than acetone ...
As far as it getting into the blood, it doesn't to any significant degree since it evaporates too fast. Only if you occlude the site of application would it significantly pass the skin and enter the blood.
05-04-2004 07:36 PM
Bump for Chemo
05-17-2004 06:55 PM
just wanted to throw in input. i know its not localized as u guys are talking about but for those that are curious...i have been prepping the skin with a light layer of dmso 5 minutes before applying superone +. in comparison to my last cycle when i did not use the dmso, this present cycle feels a hell of a lot more different on skin. far more skin irritation but i can mange through that. on a good note however, the "1 test burn" is more enhanced this cycle. i feel that stuff a hell of alot more than last time. as sucky as it might be to be burning all day im thinkin that maybe it just means that more is penetrating the skin. well, thanks big cat for the idea. i'll let u know how things go in a few weeks
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