Primordial Performance TD Carrier Capacity

[D-termine]

So I just went through almost a month of waiting on Cozmar for my Soakt, what a monumental waste of time. Anyhow, I have some Boldenone base I'll trying to mix up with some PP TD carrier. I ordered up yesterday and got a tracking number the same day. Speedy service FTW!

After I ordered I was looking over the description on PP's website and noticed that the carrier only holds 5-6 grams? ****, I was able to get 12g of Test Base to hold in Penetrate no problem. I was pushing it yes, but it held requiring little more than a shake from time to time.

Has anyone pushed the upper limits of this stuff yet? I already paid double what I was hoping to pay for a carrier, now I find out the capacity to hold actives is possibly half that of Penetrate?

-D

 

[joeymutz]

If you post this under primordial's sub forum you may get some answers from the reps there they may not check the trasdermal section as often. I personally haven't used it but I was looking into it. I will be following your log over an M&M to see how well it works for you.

 

[D-termine]

Didn't see they had a subforum. I've already been chatting with PP over on MM. He was returning my messages rather quickly until I asked about the capacity of the carrier... I don't want company reps telling me their spin, I'd like to hear from fellow forum goers.

 

[joeymutz]

Good point. Hopefully you'll get some answers from someone here who has used it. what are you going to be running test or EQ?

 

[B5150]

Didn't see they had a subforum. I've already been chatting with PP over on MM. He was returning my messages rather quickly until I asked about the capacity of the carrier... I don't want company reps telling me their spin, I'd like to hear from fellow forum goers.

The idea that you can get so much into solution with the Penetrate doesn't necessarily mean that you get that much more to pass through the epidermis. The idea of have so high a concentration does make dosing that much more convenient and saves on carrier. Quite honestly though, over saturation does not necessarily mean it is all being absorbed.

As far as PP formula goes, he will tell you how it has a 40% or more absorption rate. I am still to see data that his formula does so and I'll believe it when I see it.

In their case the idea of keeping the concentration low does improve the potential for the greatest absorption rate possible. This would be the case with any carrier.

The standard rate used by the industries leading carrier developer Avant Labs was a 50mg/ml concentration. It is advised to use that as a guideline for saturation vs absorption. Of course some do experiment with higher concentrations.

 

[D-termine]

I make a 50mg/ml concentration with Test and planned on doing something similar with Boldenone. The 50mg/ml of Test worked great. I may be getting my hands on some Dermabolics as well, so we will see how this all plans out.

 

[D-termine]

So I went ahead and tried compounding yesterday. 10g @ 286g/mol. Did this all over the stove inside a glass beaker at a temp less than boiling but hot.

I hit it with a Mortar and Pestle first and slowly added in the powder. It did not mix. I should have tried 5g and added a gram at a time after that. My bad. This was after receiving this message from PP;

"I can tell you than the solubility potential of our current topical is better than penetrate."

Then today in response to an older message I sent him;

"Some ingredients can go beyond the 6g limit... others cant go above 5g... the MW doest have much to do with it though."

So my bad?

What I'm thinking is that I need to add more solvent to this... Eric told me to go ahead and throw some more isopropyl alcohol in... I also have some DMSO on hand with SoakT en route. If absolutely necessary, I would order more carrier from PP. Anything to avoid wasting my active.

Any ideas guys? I'm open to guinea pig for y'all.

 

[B5150]

Do what I told you to do in the PM I sent you.

 

[D-termine]

Do what I told you to do in the PM I sent you.

I simply refuse do stick anything in that orifice but thnx anyways

 

[D-termine]

Well, it only took a week of ****ing around with the mix, but after ~30ml of DMSO and ~30ml of Isopropyl Alcohol added to the mix of PP's TD and my 10g of Boldenone, I have something usable.

You have to hot water bathe it for 5-10 mins prior to use, and even then I'm only getting 90-95 percent absorption (my guess based on level of grittiness).

All in all, I would NEVER use this carrier for a TD application again, let alone an expensive powder. The "solubility potential" as Eric put it is NOT "superior" or even close to equal to Penetrate; and I can only thank God and stock up on Penetrate now that it is back in stock.

 

[B5150]

I have news - http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutraplanet/111714-penetrate-coming.html

The days of packing what we used to be able to pack into solution are gone. At least in this case with this product. Although I do believe that a low volume concentration of active to solution should yield reasonable absorption rates PP simply is not capable of holding higher volumes of active in solution.

This is not all together a bad thing because a lower concentration potentiates greater absorption efficacy, which of course is still undetermined and speculation, as I have yet to see any data to support any OTC carriers claims for absorption, with the exception of AndroGel which of course is a prescription drug.

Unfortunately what Eric said and what you have experience appear to not be one in the same. I am sorry.

 

[D-termine]

Penetrate is back in stock and plug and play. 12g without so much as a hiccup. I'd stock up while it's still around if TD's are your fancy, I know I'll be working the corner extra hard tonight to get my 'dermal dough!

FAIL

 

[B5150]

Did you read what I linked you?

the formula will be new and improved, based upon Primordial Performance's ultra-superior technology!

 

[B5150]

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/nutraplanet/penetrate-8oz-8-oz.html

INGREDIENTS: Distilled water, grape spirits*, aloe vera*, ethoxy diglycol, dimethyl isosorbide, butylene glycol, jojoba oil, emu oil, squalene, tocopherol acetate, chamomile extract* (matricaria recutita), isopropyl myristate, green tea extract* (camellia sinensis), cetyl palmitate, sorbitan palmitate, sorbitan olivate, glyceryl stearate, PEG 100 stearate, glycerin, dimethicone, strontium nitrate, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, d-Limonene, tetrahydropiperine†, potassium sorbate, sodium benzoate, sodium PCA, sodium hydroxide.

* Certified Organic
† US Patent 6,849,645

Ingredients:

Distilled water, grape spirits*, aloe vera*, ethoxy diglycol, dimethyl isosorbide, butylene glycol, jojoba oil, emu oil, squalene, tocopherol acetate, chamomile extract* (matricaria recutita), isopropyl myristate, green tea extract* (camellia sinensis), cetyl palmitate, sorbitan palmitate, sorbitan olivate, glyceryl stearate, PEG 100 stearate, glycerin, dimethicone, strontium nitrate, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, d-Limonene, tetrahydropiperine†, potassium sorbate, sodium benzoate, sodium PCA, sodium hydroxide.

* Certified Organic
† US Patent 6,849,645

See any similarities?

You'll save $10 bucks by going with NutraPlanet. It's a great deal at NP!

 

[D-termine]

See any similarities?

You'll save $10 bucks by going with NutraPlanet. It's a great deal at NP!

Apparently my reading comprehension is ****, or I was just seeing what I wanted to see. Even got rep points from Dsade LOL.

So just to be clear, Penetrate is now Primordial Performances carrier? Can I just quit this thread? God.

I guess to be less of a ****, what is this product good at carrying? Less actives? Anyone? Ubiquitous silence?

 

[GotTest]

See any similarities?

You'll save $10 bucks by going with NutraPlanet. It's a great deal at NP!

This is absolutely GREAT news!
Form dissolves MUCH better in PP's topical than it did the OLD Penetrate.
Also Penetrate was far more "greasy" feeling than PP's topical.

I'll give the new Penetrate a go just to save the money.

 

[BodyWizard]

So just to be clear, Penetrate is now Primordial Performances carrier?

I guess to be less of a ****, what is this product good at carrying? Less actives? Anyone? Ubiquitous silence?

Apparently, DHEA and resveratrol work well in it :laugh: I remember someone saying formestane goes well with it, too.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Apparently my reading comprehension is ****, or I was just seeing what I wanted to see. Even got rep points from Dsade LOL.

So just to be clear, Penetrate is now Primordial Performances carrier? Can I just quit this thread? God.

I guess to be less of a ****, what is this product good at carrying? Less actives? Anyone? Ubiquitous silence?

With most ingredients, you will get better solubility with our PP carrier compared to the more basic iso-propyl/PG topical formulas on the market, such as the older penetrate and Dermabolix matrix.

Boldenone base is a difficult compound to dissolve, so I wouldn’t be surprised if you couldn’t push past 5-6gm per bottle on this. Even with the lesser mg/ml concentration you should still be getting more boldenone into the system than a basic iso-propyl/PG mix… simply due to the better co-solvents and more aggressive permeant’s.

Have you had a chance to start the cycle?

-Eric

 

[D-termine]

With most ingredients, you will get better solubility with our PP carrier compared to the more basic iso-propyl/PG topical formulas on the market, such as the older penetrate and Dermabolix matrix.

Boldenone base is a difficult compound to dissolve, so I wouldn’t be surprised if you couldn’t push past 5-6gm per bottle on this. Even with the lesser mg/ml concentration you should still be getting more boldenone into the system than a basic iso-propyl/PG mix… simply due to the better co-solvents and more aggressive permeant’s.

Have you had a chance to start the cycle?

-Eric

The only thing making me hesitant to bitch (for which I'll gladly eat my words later if I'm wrong) is that I've never mixed Bold before, only Test. I have a few peeps I need to talk to wrt to that. I'll have some Penetrate and Dermabolics soon, so I'll be trying out both of them.

I still think that claims have yet to proven that your carrier has that much better absorption rates than the Derm/Pene products. I estimate, and this is on the low to medium end imo, 25 percent absorption with those.

I'm won't get into the math, but Penetrate and Dermabolics have no issues holding 10+ grams so far as I know. If yours holds only 5g, then the delivery would have to be a solid 40%+ to even entice me.

How you plan to prove your product has such superior absorption rates, I have no idea.

I started the cycle and I wanted to log it. However after all the tomf*ckery I've had to do to the solution, I have no idea how much is dissolved or being absorbed.

 

[BodyWizard]

I'm won't get into the math, but Penetrate and Dermabolics have no issues holding 10+ grams so far as I know. If yours holds only 5g, then the delivery would have to be a solid 40%+ to even entice me.

I've become convinced that the higher the concentration, the poorer the delivery; I offer this as an observation, not as a fact, but it's based on experimenting w/ different concentrations of different compounds in different carriers: in every case, the higher the concentration, the more residue: it seems to me that residue is mainly wasted active. Nothing efficient about wasted active.

 

[B5150]

so I wouldn’t be surprised if you couldn’t push past 5-6gm per bottle on this. Even with the lesser mg/ml concentration you should still be getting more boldenone into the system than a basic iso-propyl/PG mix… simply due to the better co-solvents and more aggressive permeant’s.

Most compounds with a MW of less than 300 will be absorbed at a 30-40% rate over 12 hours.

1. Weigh out 5-6 grams of ingredients. Adding more than 6 grams of ingredients will most likely not dissolve in the solution, and therefore will not absorb through the skin.

* Adding 6gm will give you ~27mg/ml
* Adding 5gm will give you ~23mg/ml

Most of us are in agreement with the idea that a lower concentration will optimize absorption. Anyone who has gone high concentration knows, as BW mentioned, that active sits on the surface of your skin and gets wasted.

The question here is: where is your evidence to support a 30-40% absorption rate? Known absorption rate is a great thing for the consumer because he can accurately assess his response to a precise dose. But again, where are you getting the precise number of 30-40% absorption?

 

[dsade]

I found the most ideal results vs. skin residue with the Avant carrier and 1-t/4-ad to be about 9 grams per 8 ounces

 

[BodyWizard]

given the differing solubilities, at what split?

 

[B5150]

I think it was SuperONE that pushed the concentration beyond 50mg/ml (for an OTC not homebrewed). A think most their others OTC were ≤50mg/ml IIRC.

I believe they had very superior absorption yet I cannot recall them ever providing an absolute for their absorption rate.

 

[dsade]

given the differing solubilities, at what split?

around 2.5 to 1 , 4-ad to 1-t

 

[B5150]

I think it was SuperONE that pushed the concentration beyond 50mg/ml (for an OTC not homebrewed). A think most their others OTC were ≤50mg/ml IIRC.

I believe they had very superior absorption yet I cannot recall them ever providing an absolute for their absorption rate.

I need to correct myself here.

These products came in 8 ounce bottles. So most this is .5 (or half) of what I posted. IIRC ONE, 4AD were initially something like 6g/240ml

Topical Delivery System for Anabolic Hormones

At last, we are making our superior topical gels available to the public, so you can make your own homebrews with whatever ingredients you choose. So, you can quit wasting precious androgen with the much inferior "Finasol" formulation. While you are at it, extract some testosterone from Synovex, as outlined in Dazed's article, and throw it in there as well. Or, if you prefer the legal route -- throw 12 grams of 1-test in there for a sick version of ONE.

It's been so long I cannot recall the advent of this experimentation any longer

 

[dsade]

It's been so long I cannot recall the advent of this experimentation any longer

Plausible deniability?

 

[B5150]

If necessary.

 

[dsade]

If necessary.

I have no idea of what you are speaking, kind sir.


/these aren't the roids you're looking for..he may go about his business.

 

[B5150]

A-roid is a Yankee. Yes?

 

[dsade]

A-roid is a Yankee. Yes?

not for long, I suspect.

 

[Eric Potratz]

The only thing making me hesitant to bitch (for which I'll gladly eat my words later if I'm wrong) is that I've never mixed Bold before, only Test. I have a few peeps I need to talk to wrt to that. I'll have some Penetrate and Dermabolics soon, so I'll be trying out both of them.

I still think that claims have yet to proven that your carrier has that much better absorption rates than the Derm/Pene products. I estimate, and this is on the low to medium end imo, 25 percent absorption with those.

I'm won't get into the math, but Penetrate and Dermabolics have no issues holding 10+ grams so far as I know. If yours holds only 5g, then the delivery would have to be a solid 40%+ to even entice me.

How you plan to prove your product has such superior absorption rates, I have no idea.

I started the cycle and I wanted to log it. However after all the tomf*ckery I've had to do to the solution, I have no idea how much is dissolved or being absorbed.

I thought you said you had put bold into the Penetrate?

I was having a real hard time believing that you actually got 10gm of BOLD in a bottle of the older stuff... but now this makes sense. Wait until you try it.

-Eric

 

[Eric Potratz]

Most of us are in agreement with the idea that a lower concentration will optimize absorption. Anyone who has gone high concentration knows, as BW mentioned, that active sits on the surface of your skin and gets wasted.

The question here is: where is your evidence to support a 30-40% absorption rate? Known absorption rate is a great thing for the consumer because he can accurately assess his response to a precise dose. But again, where are you getting the precise number of 30-40% absorption?

We don’t really make precise claims on absorption %.

We say most ingredients under 300 MW get 30-40%.

Now, 30% would be occurring on most areas of the skin over a 12-24hr peroid, which is pretty close to what is occurring with advanced TD’s carrying testosterone. (for instance)

40% (or higher) would be occurring around thin-skinned areas such as the scrotum which has been found to be up to 5x more permeable than the stomach skin.

Pharmacokinetics of a new testosterone transdermal delivery system, TDS-testosterone in healthy males.
Z Chik et al.
Clinical Pharmacology (2005)

Compounded percutaneous testosterone gel: use and effects in hypogonadal men
C. B. Cutter
J Am Board Fam Pract, Jan 2001; 14: 22

Hypogonadal impotence treated by transdermal testosterone.
McClure RD, Oses R, Ernest ML.
Urology 1991;37:224–8.

Testoderm TTS, Testoderm, and Testoderm with
adhesive [package inserts]. Mountain View, Calif:
Alza Pharmaceuticals, 1998.

-Pp

 

[GotTest]

Forgot I threw up little review on PP vs Penatrate...in regards to Form:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/transdermals/107785-pps-topical-solution.html#post1624987

 

[MAxximal]

So I just went through almost a month of waiting on Cozmar for my Soakt, what a monumental waste of time. Anyhow, I have some Boldenone base I'll trying to mix up with some PP TD carrier. I ordered up yesterday and got a tracking number the same day. Speedy service FTW!

After I ordered I was looking over the description on PP's website and noticed that the carrier only holds 5-6 grams? ****, I was able to get 12g of Test Base to hold in Penetrate no problem. I was pushing it yes, but it held requiring little more than a shake from time to time.

Has anyone pushed the upper limits of this stuff yet? I already paid double what I was hoping to pay for a carrier, now I find out the capacity to hold actives is possibly half that of Penetrate?

-D

I know this thread is old but did you received your packagae from the site?

 

[joeymutz]

PP's solution is hands down the best out there. i had no clumps but i was using test base and i don't believe that tends to clump.

 

[MAxximal]

PP's solution is hands down the best out there. i had no clumps but i was using test base and i don't believe that tends to clump.

Penetrate from Nutra is the same or not?

 

[joeymutz]

it is the same

 

[BioAS]

So is Cozmar still up and running or not. I tried emailing them using their contact email addie and it bounced back.

Are these guys still in business?

 

[MAxximal]

So is Cozmar still up and running or not. I tried emailing them using their contact email addie and it bounced back.

Are these guys still in business?

really i don`t know but the website still runnings ¿WTF?
:surprised: :wtf:

 

[GotTest]

So is Cozmar still up and running or not. I tried emailing them using their contact email addie and it bounced back.

Are these guys still in business?

Customer service is TERRIBLE.