ok who is stronger?
- 01-07-2008, 09:38 AM
ok who is stronger?
simple question guys. my buddy is 5'4 and weighs 135. he benches 195 as his max. i am 6'4 and weigh 190 and bench 270 as mine. if you do the old fashion max weight divided by body weight then he comes out on top. but arnt there other factors here? i would really like to shut him up. for Christ sake he only has to lift the bar 4 inches off his chest.!!
- 01-07-2008, 12:26 PM
You lift more, ergo you are stronger, it's as simple as that. Also, if your arms are longer, then he has a mechanincal advantage over you. The idea bench press build is barrel chested (so your arms are closer to 90 degrees when all the way down), and short limbed (to provide the smallest levers).
- 01-07-2008, 12:28 PM
Don't be a Sally, there can be only one. You know what you must do MacLeod."I am legally blind and if I can Squat,deadlift and over all get myself to the gym then anyone can get their a$$ in gear and get strong!!" - malleus25
01-09-2008, 05:36 PM
A bench press isn't quit a class III lever, it may be a class II, nonetheless, the range of motion would be the biggest factor here. You have further distance to push in order to complete the lift. His full range of motion may equate to a half press for you, and you could probably half press more then your actual 1RM.
If he were 5'4 and you were 5'6 or even 5'8, I wouldn't argue range of motion, but damn, you're 10 inches taller, his full range of motion for a bench press is like a twitch for you bro.
NSCA - CSCS
01-09-2008, 05:56 PM
if going by strength-to-weight:
135 benching 195 is pushing 144% of his weight.
190 benching 270 is pushing 142% of his weight.
the first guy is stronger - by just a little bit.
Last edited by Hank Vangut; 01-16-2008 at 09:11 AM.
01-09-2008, 06:13 PM
We live in a time where our planet suffers from two epidemics simultaneously - starvation and obesity.
Look at all these little kids taking care of the music biz, don't their business take good care of me.
I have the fire, I have the force, I have the power to make my evil take it's course.
01-12-2008, 10:31 PM
Dont be crazy. If a midget benches 155lbs and is only 77lbs in his little midget frame, it doesnt make him stronger then the 6'8" 300 pounder that benches 500lbs.
01-12-2008, 11:33 PM
Simple ratios man, strength isn't absolute, it's relative. He's stronger than you. ****, an Ant is 'stronger' than you, and I, and any human. This biomechanical jargon is overcomplicating a very simple thing.
01-13-2008, 02:00 AM
There are so many factors to this and its so close I would say it could really go either way depending on what your taking account of.
01-13-2008, 04:32 AM
I was gonna suggest fighting to determine that (lol), but that wouldn't really solve anything either. You'd only be asking for trouble and hurting your friend. Even the strongest and biggest guys could get their asses kicked. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Also, fighting is just based on reflexes and experience. I think that strength and size are other factors to take into consideration, but they're definitely not everything.
But, yes. You can lift more, therefore you're stronger.
01-15-2008, 09:25 PM
Ok, here... A 400# boulder falls on your foot and you cant get it off. You look around the room for some help, obviously looking for the "strongest" guy in the area. Are you going to pick the guy that benches 195, or the guy that benches 270?
270, thank you.
01-15-2008, 09:33 PM
Strength is relative, not absolute. In muscular terms, it is measured using intensity, the amount of relative force applied against a resistance. The resistance on the musculature of the 135 person is higher, ergo the relative intensity/force and strength of the 135 person is higher.
01-16-2008, 04:48 AM
Strength isn't relative. The guy who can lift more is stronger. None of this weight class stuff. When it comes down to the real world, not some arbitrary contest with rules, the guy who lifts more is stronger. That's what "stronger" means.
If these two guys the OP is talking about walk into someone's wedding reception, and the little guy gets on the microphone and explains to everyone that he can lift more than this big dude, and explains the math to them, they'll all laugh, and say."but the big guy can lift more than you. You aren't stronger than he is."
If these two guys walk into a kindergarten classroom and tell the kids that one guy can bench 100lbs, and the other guy can bench 200lbs, then ask the class who they think is stronger, they'd tell you the bigger guy who lifts more.
Strength can not be relative. That's the rules. and the definition.
P.S.-I'm with Maverick and the 400# boulder. I'd pick the big guy who benches 270. Why? Cause he's stronger than the little guy is.
The Truth is, there is no Truth.
01-16-2008, 05:08 AM
01-16-2008, 10:15 AM
01-16-2008, 11:53 AM
The maximum force that can be developed in a muscle or group of muscle during a single maximal contraction.
force a muscle(s) produces against a resistance
It isn't such a difficult concept to grasp, but maybe I'm not relating it properly.
We all use the term 'intensity' in our training program. Now, despite people thinking this is a mindset, or training style, in strict terms it is the percentage of the body's maximum lifting capacity lifted with each repetition. Keyword there: the body. I.e., the 135lb dude is exerting more maximum force with his musculature than the bigger dude i.e., he is stronger.
Strength, as I said, is nothing more than a measure of force OR (by the definition in the dictionary) intensity. So, like I said, 135lb'er is stonger.
I see where you are coming from, and I can suppose it goes both ways, but I am actually somewhat surprised you are so flabbergasted that I am using a ridiculously common definition of strength. This is similar to biologists determining the 'strongest' animal; while the Elephant can 'lift the most' of any animal on other, they resoundingly describe the Rhino., Beetle as the strongest animal on Earth because it can lift 850 times its own body weight.
So, like I said in the beginning, it's simple ratios.
And who said the thing about the Kindergarten kids? That's like saying "go into a Kindergarten class and have them explain wave-particle theory, and what they say is right".
01-16-2008, 04:24 PM
So: who is stronger? The guy who benches 270
Who is stronger relative to bodywieght? The guy who benches 190.
And I understand the inconsistency in the kindergarten analogy. I was trying to say that relative strength doesn't count for anything in the real world. stronger is stronger when it comes to actually moving boulders off feet.
The Truth is, there is no Truth.
01-16-2008, 04:33 PM
Google the strongest animal, and tell me of your results.
01-16-2008, 05:00 PM
If we were being technical, I'd say the guy who can push the most weight relative to his bodyweight was the strongest (relative strength guy), but when it comes to a couple guys at the gym making strength comparisons, I believe they are considering absolute strength, who evers pushing the most weight regardless to size, bodymass, length of extremities.
I think you both made clear points, I followed both your logics and the one making a point for relative strength made perfect sense in explaining the relative strength POV, and the guy making the differentiation of absolute strength from relative in that its a simple matter of the highest number made sense for the absolute strength argument. But the two have their own distinct definitions and quantifying factors.
In a weight lifting contest, the winner is the one with the most absolute strength, Bench + Squat + Dead, it's a matter of who put up the highest numbers, however, they also give out awards for relative strength, which normally goes to the smaller guys. Relative strength awards always goes to smaller guys. 400lb men dead lifting 800lbs is good, 180lbs man dead lifting 500lbs is fricken amazing. Who is stronger? Overall the 400lbs guy if you ask 90% of the population because absolute strength is the generic definition for strength. I, personally, lean toward strength in terms of relativity (ratios: bodymass, length of extremities), but again, a couple guys at the gym standing around a bench press wondering who is stronger is most likely considering absolute strength, so in that circle of friends, whoever pushed the most weight, will be considered the strongest. Even if it is a midget with a 2 inch ROM to complete the lift.
It's no coincidence that "most" competitive weight lifters are under 6" with short, stalky limbs. Biomechanics does play a role.
NSCA - CSCS
01-16-2008, 05:05 PM
Like the animal metaphor. The elephant is stronger, because it can lift more in total. The rhinocerous beetle has the greater relative strength, because it can lift more in relation to its bodyweight.
All that I'm saying is that this whole thing isn't going anywhere until Fasthumpman gets on here and tells us which one he meant. Although I have a feeling that this is exactly the arguement that he and his friend were having. Symantics.
The Truth is, there is no Truth.
01-16-2008, 05:11 PM
01-16-2008, 05:14 PM
I would just do what they do in Powerlifting to deicide which is the stronger lifter, based on bodyweight. This way dosent take into consideration, leverages, age, or lifting experience. But are you really trying to make this into a science experiment? The largest Powerlifting federation the IPF uses it I think it is good enough. The 270 bench is clearly better based on the Wilks Formula. Mark
6'4" 190 270 bench= 79.99
5'4" 135 195 bench= 74.10
01-16-2008, 05:31 PM
01-16-2008, 05:36 PM
Who is stronger? I guess you are into WEIGHT LIFTING rather than body building. In bodybuilding, it is all about who your body looks - size, density, propostions - etc. In weight lifting, there are rules - see the attached. You guys would not even compete in the same class. You should forget the 1 rep max, and workout together for the most intense workouts - and you will both grow, I the end I doubt your goal is to beat him. Focus on your own progress and I assure you that you will be happier about it. Good Luck to you
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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This article is about the sport of weightlifting. For the muscle-building activity involving weights, see weight training. For using weights to develop physique, see bodybuilding.
A weightlifter about to jerk 180 kg
A weightlifter about to jerk 180 kg
Weightlifting (Olympic style) is a sport in which competitors attempt to lift heavy weights mounted on steel bars called barbells, the execution of which is a combination of power, flexibility, concentration, skill, will power, discipline (very important), athleticness, fitness, technique, mental and physical strength. The term "weightlifting" is often informally used to refer to weight training. Olympic weightlifting trains the athlete for functional strength, utilizing the body's major muscle groups. For this reason, the Olympic lifts (or simplified versions such as the power snatch or clean) are extensively used in training for other sports such as American Football.
* 1 The lifts
* 2 Training
o 2.1 Snatch (weightlifting) assistant exercises
o 2.2 Clean and Jerk assistant exercises
o 2.3 Other general exercises
+ 2.3.1 Relative exercises compared to a lift
o 2.4 Training
* 3 Competition
* 4 Top lifters
o 4.1 Specific Qualities of a top weightlifter
* 5 Records
* 6 See also
* 7 References
* 8 External links
 The lifts
The sport of Olympic Weightlifting consists of two events (lifts)—the "snatch", in which competitors must lift the barbell over their heads from the floor in one continuous movement, and the "clean and jerk" where competitors first "clean" the barbell from the floor to an intermediate position, "racking" the bar in a front squat, then standing up in the concentric portion of the front squat, and finally "jerking" the barbell to a position above their head. In both cases, for a successful lift, competitors must hold the bar steady above their heads, with arms and legs straight and motionless. A third lift, the "clean and press" or simply "press", was practiced in the Olympics until 1972. The clean and press differs from the clean and jerk, in that the weight is pressed directly up from the chest with the arms only, while remaining standing, while the jerk off uses the legs' power to assist the arms part of the way up, followed by the body sinking downward into a split or squat to complete the extension of the arms, before once again standing. The press was eliminated due to the difficulty in judging whether the lift was performed correctly: lifters were bending so far backward as to turn it into a "standing bench press".
Three judges oversee the successful completion of the lift. Once a competitor has met the requirements in their opinion, each judge shines a white light. When at least two white lights are shown, the lift is regarded as successful and the competitor may return the bar to the platform. If the competitor fails to achieve a successful lift in the opinion of a judge, a red light is shown. The bar must be lifted to at least knee level within 60 seconds of the bar being loaded or the lift does not count. If the competitor is making two consecutive lifts then they are permitted 135 seconds for the second lift.
This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards.
Please improve this article if you can. (December 2007)
In training for the snatch and the clean and jerk, lifters practice other exercises to assist particular parts of these lifts.
The snatch has three constituent parts:
* the pull,
* the quick drop, and
* the squat
The clean and jerk is a combination of two lifts: each having component parts:
The clean has:
* the pull,
* the drop, and
* the squat
and the jerk is made up of:
* the dip,
* the drive, and
* the split
In addition to practicing the individual parts of these lifts, weightlifters may practice the following training lifts.
 Snatch (weightlifting) assistant exercises
* First Pull (assisted by high pull)
* Second Pull (assisted by high pull)
* The Shrug
* The Jump and Quick Drop
* The Overhead Squat
 Clean and Jerk assistant exercises
* High Pulls
* Hang Jump Shrug
* Pull Under and Jump
* Front Squat
* Jump Dips
* Split Jerks
* Romanian Dead Lift aka. RDLs
 Other general exercises
* Squats, including front squats
* Snatch balances (Quick Drop) and jerks etc
* Deadlifts and presses are
 Relative exercises compared to a lift
For a clean and jerk of 150 kg
The more you break the lift down into its component parts, the heavier each part should be. The figures below are an example for a 150 kg clean and jerk:
* Clean: 160.0 kg
* Jerk: 160.0 kg
* Clean Pull: 175.0 kg
* Front Squat: 175.0 kg
* Back Squat: 200.0 kg
* Deadlift: 210.0 kg
* Snatch (relative): 120.0 kg This should be approximately 80% of the clean and jerk weight
An Olympic weightlifter will train every day for a few hours. However, in normal circumstances, a lifter may train a maximum 3 or 4 times per week for an hour or two.
Competitors compete in one of eight (seven for women) divisions determined by their body mass. These classes are currently: men's: 56 kg (123.5 lb), 62 kg (136.7 lb), 69 kg (152.1 lb), 77 kg (169.8 lb), 85 kg (187.4 lb), 94 kg (207.2 lb), 105 kg (231.5 lb) and 105+ kg, and women's: 48kg (105.8 lb.), 53 kg (116.8 lb), 58 kg (127.8 lb), 63 kg (138.9 lb), 69 kg (152.1 lb), 75 kg (165.3 lb), and 75+ kg. In each weight division, competitors compete in both the snatch and clean and jerk, and prizes are usually given for the heaviest weights lifted in the snatch, clean and jerk, and the two combined.
The order of the competition is up to the lifters—the competitor who chooses to attempt the lowest weight goes first. If they are unsuccessful at that weight, they have the option of reattempting that lift or trying a heavier weight later (after any other competitors have made attempts at that weight or any intermediate weights). Weights are set in 1 kilogram increments (previously 2.5kg increments), and each lifter can have a maximum of three lifts, regardless of whether lifts are successful or not.
The competitive sport is controlled by the International Weightlifting Federation (IWF). Based in Budapest, it was founded in 1905.
01-16-2008, 05:46 PM
01-16-2008, 05:53 PM
"Debates" like this have always driven me nuts. I apologize for keeping it going. It's just tough with things like this, when the point being discussed is ill-defined to begin with. It's even more fun on a board full of testosterone-crazed geeks like us.
The Truth is, there is no Truth.
01-16-2008, 06:44 PM
01-16-2008, 06:54 PM
01-17-2008, 10:29 AM
You get different answers becuase people see strength in different ways.
You are stronger because you can get more work done.
Your 5"4' friend is strong for his size but not stronger than you.
The people that say that you're weaker are the people doing the weight/strength ratio.
If you can beat him up, then you're stronger. :P
01-17-2008, 12:08 PM
01-18-2008, 05:50 AM
You are missing the point here, all of you !!! We can debate biomechanics and the theory of relativity until the end of time however, if the issue of “who’s the alpha male?” is so important to sort out , then you first have to find out how much can either of you :dl:! Forget the bloody bench press, absolute or relative, the deadlift is the true measure of strength. Deadlifting engages more muscles than ANY other exercise, squats included. Also, unlike squats and bench presses where you start at the top of the movement and can therefore use momentum and rebound to get the weight back up, on the deads you start at the bottom. Hence, there is no cheating on the deads, you are either able to lift the weight off the ground or you are not !
01-18-2008, 11:28 AM
01-18-2008, 11:32 AM
01-18-2008, 11:51 AM
01-18-2008, 05:02 PM
01-18-2008, 05:40 PM
Just go the old fashion way here.. Find a narrow entrance to a hallway, so you can face each other. Put a stick between the both of you find out who can press the stick into the other's chest
01-18-2008, 06:48 PM
01-19-2008, 06:21 PM
01-19-2008, 07:39 PM
01-19-2008, 07:51 PM
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