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    Best Routine For Mass??


    There is a million different opinions out there for building mass, whether it be pyramid, 5 x 5, whatever...For straight mass, what is everyone's opinion on the best routine..Include set/rep numbers..rep type (explosive/negative)..

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    I think that diet is more important. Eating right is 90% of the battle. Anyone can go into the gym and blast away on the weights but whoever goes home and throws down the right amount of macro's will prevail. You asked for opinions, that is mine

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    Quote Originally Posted by revodrew
    I think that diet is more important. Eating right is 90% of the battle. Anyone can go into the gym and blast away on the weights but whoever goes home and throws down the right amount of macro's will prevail. You asked for opinions, that is mine
    I agree with this. For pure mass building (especially in the first 2 to 3 years of training when gains come the quickest), diet is what can make or break you. A good diet and pretty good training will lead to gains, but awesome & intense training with a poor diet will not work.

    Having said that, the best mass building program FOR ME was the Mike Mentzer / Dorian Yates "Heavy Duty" training. You can also refer to it as HIT as Phil216 said.

    I don't belong to the 20 to 25 sets per bodypart camp at all.

    To blast through plateaus, I've done cycles of eccentric-only training (which I mentioned in another thread recently).

    There's lots of info on the Web so I won't go into any of the above. It's just what worked best for me.

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    Yeah I 100% agree about the diet thing..I should've clarified...Which training regime best supplements a proper diet

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    Focus on getting the diet and training portion down before worrying about supps. Believe me HIT is the way to go if your goal is to build size and strenght.
    Last edited by phil216; 02-05-2006 at 08:00 AM. Reason: typo

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    TUT has pretty good merit. Im in the process of doing this type of workout program at the moment.

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    I'm on MAX-OT training right now, its giving me decent results, but not phenomenal...
    I'm going to try a Time-Under-Tension program soon as I get off cycle, I've heard some decent reviews on this type of training

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    I have been using HIT and I'm down to doing 2 sets once every 7 or so days and my strength has gone up dramatically. In the past month I have added 40lbs to my deadlift.

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    Has anyone else noticed that each person swears by something, and they all seem to work for them. That's becasue you will gain muscle as long as your diet is in check, so essentially all of these programs will work for putting on muscle as long as you don't overtrain.

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    Yeah that is true..But I do think each program has it's strongpoints depending on what you are trying to accomplish, and as my diet is pretty good (4000 cals when bulkling 8 meal split, 2 shakes and whole, clean foods) I was just tryin to figure out which workout plan would best compliment this..

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsl
    Has anyone else noticed that each person swears by something, and they all seem to work for them. That's becasue you will gain muscle as long as your diet is in check, so essentially all of these programs will work for putting on muscle as long as you don't overtrain.
    Also everyones bodies are diff cant say that what works for me works for you but a few rules to keep gaining.
    1) intensity, i always train hard, not neccessarily heavy but hard
    2)focus, work the muscles you intend too
    3)vary your work outs, dont do the same thing over and over with out changing some aspect. change weight, rep ranges, foot placement, smith, dumbell, barbell etc
    4) time your meals for optimal growth, after your workout your cells are primed to pack away glucose. PROTEIN!!
    5) dont overtrain, 45 min is usually plenty for a single group. ID rather go 65% than go %110 and actually end up behind. Less is more but dont be lazy withthis principle.
    6)listen to your body, you know when its growing, you know when its hurting, you know when its time to change, all the advice inthe world wont change that.
    thats my .02$ Squats,Rows,deads,bench 4 major movements everyone should do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msucurt
    TUT has pretty good merit. Im in the process of doing this type of workout program at the moment.

    I second this...

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    What's the duration of your concentric and eccentric stages of the lift?..I have usually trained with 4 seconds for each stage with smooth steady motion and contraction between them, but have heard some do a 20 second rep

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    mullet, basically it looks like this:

    barbell curl: 3:2 ration.

    Meaning this eccentric for 3 secs.....concentric for 2 secs.

    meaning more Time Under Tension (TUT) for your muscles.

    msucurt

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    Trust me on this HIT is the way to go. Intensity is what stimulates the growth mechanism of the body not volume. Volume is a negative as for each and every additional set you do above the least amount required to stimulate te growth mechanism it is that much harder to recover let alone grow, which takes time. Beyond that training must be infrequent say once every 4-7 days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phil216
    Trust me on this HIT is the way to go. Intensity is what stimulates the growth mechanism of the body not volume. Volume is a negative as for each and every additional set you do above the least amount required to stimulate te growth mechanism it is that much harder to recover let alone grow, which takes time. Beyond that training must be infrequent say once every 4-7 days.
    Tension with progressive load initiates myofibullar hypertrophy (for the most part).

    HIT is one way this can be accomplished but its not close to being optimal.
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    go to a powerlifting forum and do one of there simple routines, eat a lot, and do low impact cardio, you'll grow like a weed

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    So Bobo, what do you think about a TUT routine with a 4:4 ratio with all compound movements (where possible) except for the last exercise of each day? For all the compounds I wanna do a 5 x 5 routine and progress the weights each workout I complete the fifth rep of each set without complete failure. Also I won't be using a 5 x 5 on arms instead a 4 x 8 and changing my arm routine halfway through. It will be a five day split, working one muscle each day, once a week for optimal recovery..Considering none of this matters without my diet it will be as follows

    Meal 1 7:00
    Multi
    Fish Oils
    4 pieces of whole wheat bread w/natural peanut butter
    4 egg whites, one whole egg
    1 banana
    1 orange
    3 strips of lean ham

    Meal 2-9:00
    4 strips of bacon
    1 apple
    large glass of skim milk
    whole wheat english muffin with slice of turkey-100 grams

    Meal 3-11:30
    Homemade protein bar with 2 tbsp natural pb/2 scoops of whey/ 1/4 cup of oats
    1 carton of of egg whites straight (mmmmmm)

    Meal 4-1:30-2:00
    Half pound whole wheat pasta w/ fat free pasta sauce and light mozzarella
    1 chicken breast
    1 glass of milk
    Fish oils

    Meal 5 Try to make it 3:30 because I usually lift at 4:30
    1 chicken breast w/two slices of whole wheat bread and light cheese

    Meal 6-Postworkout
    Powershake, 2 scoops of whey blended with strawberries and oats

    Meal 7 6:30
    1 lb lean ground or steak, drain or trim fat
    Large, large salad
    Two apples
    Wrap beef in tortilla shell
    Fish oils

    Meal 8-Before Bed
    2 scoops of whey with water

    So that's it..I weigh around 170 and want to be at least 180 after a 8 week bulk, I am considering taking Super, and if so any alterations I would need in that instance would be appreciated..This will be my training split

    Mon-Back
    Deads(conventional grip, w/ shrug at top) 5 x 5 (possibly superset with chins)
    BB Rows 5 x 5
    Bench Rows 5 x 5
    Alternate Seated Cables and Lat Pulldowns 4 x 8 with a drop set

    Tues-20 min cardio

    Wed-Chest
    DB Decline 5 x 5
    Flat BB Bench 5 x 5
    Incline BB Bench 5 x 5
    Incline DB 5 x 5
    Incline Flys 4 x 8 I have a weaker upper chest and that is reason for incline target

    Thurs-Arms (all supersets)
    Preacher Straight Bar Curl/Overhead extensions 4 x 8
    Preacher Hammers/Straight Bar Pressdown 4 x 8
    One Arm DB Preacher/Bench Dips 4 x 8
    Every other workout I will end with a giant set of Smith Machine Curls (75% one rep max), Incline Hammers, and Overhead Extensions

    Fri-Legs
    Squats (ass to grass) 5 x 5 w/ negative set every other week
    Quad Extensions 4 x 8
    Ham Curls 4 x 8
    Calf Raises 4 x 8

    Sat-Shoulders
    DB Military/BB Military 5 x 5
    Seated Front Raises 4 x 8
    Seated Laterals 4 x 8

    I will do a ten minute interval warm-up each day at 2 min-50% 6 min 85% and 2 min cooldown and abs three times a week in morning..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo

    oh no he di'n't (said with best angry black woman voice)...lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
    So Bobo, what do you think about a TUT routine with a 4:4 ratio with all compound movements (where possible) except for the last exercise of each day? For all the compounds I wanna do a 5 x 5 routine and progress the weights each workout I complete the fifth rep of each set without complete failure. Also I won't be using a 5 x 5 on arms instead a 4 x 8 and changing my arm routine halfway through. It will be a five day split, working one muscle each day, once a week for optimal recovery..Considering none of this matters without my diet it will be as follows

    Meal 1 7:00
    Multi
    Fish Oils
    4 pieces of whole wheat bread w/natural peanut butter
    4 egg whites, one whole egg
    1 banana
    1 orange
    3 strips of lean ham

    Meal 2-9:00
    4 strips of bacon
    1 apple
    large glass of skim milk
    whole wheat english muffin with slice of turkey-100 grams

    Meal 3-11:30
    Homemade protein bar with 2 tbsp natural pb/2 scoops of whey/ 1/4 cup of oats
    1 carton of of egg whites straight (mmmmmm)

    Meal 4-1:30-2:00
    Half pound whole wheat pasta w/ fat free pasta sauce and light mozzarella
    1 chicken breast
    1 glass of milk
    Fish oils

    Meal 5 Try to make it 3:30 because I usually lift at 4:30
    1 chicken breast w/two slices of whole wheat bread and light cheese

    Meal 6-Postworkout
    Powershake, 2 scoops of whey blended with strawberries and oats

    Meal 7 6:30
    1 lb lean ground or steak, drain or trim fat
    Large, large salad
    Two apples
    Wrap beef in tortilla shell
    Fish oils

    Meal 8-Before Bed
    2 scoops of whey with water

    So that's it..I weigh around 170 and want to be at least 180 after a 8 week bulk, I am considering taking Super, and if so any alterations I would need in that instance would be appreciated..This will be my training split

    Mon-Back
    Deads(conventional grip, w/ shrug at top) 5 x 5 (possibly superset with chins)
    BB Rows 5 x 5
    Bench Rows 5 x 5
    Alternate Seated Cables and Lat Pulldowns 4 x 8 with a drop set

    Tues-20 min cardio

    Wed-Chest
    DB Decline 5 x 5
    Flat BB Bench 5 x 5
    Incline BB Bench 5 x 5
    Incline DB 5 x 5
    Incline Flys 4 x 8 I have a weaker upper chest and that is reason for incline target

    Thurs-Arms (all supersets)
    Preacher Straight Bar Curl/Overhead extensions 4 x 8
    Preacher Hammers/Straight Bar Pressdown 4 x 8
    One Arm DB Preacher/Bench Dips 4 x 8
    Every other workout I will end with a giant set of Smith Machine Curls (75% one rep max), Incline Hammers, and Overhead Extensions

    Fri-Legs
    Squats (ass to grass) 5 x 5 w/ negative set every other week
    Quad Extensions 4 x 8
    Ham Curls 4 x 8
    Calf Raises 4 x 8

    Sat-Shoulders
    DB Military/BB Military 5 x 5
    Seated Front Raises 4 x 8
    Seated Laterals 4 x 8

    I will do a ten minute interval warm-up each day at 2 min-50% 6 min 85% and 2 min cooldown and abs three times a week in morning..
    I think Bobo gets paid to answer these problems, Fla nutrition.

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    4:4 ratio is too high. You are concentrating more on sarcoplasmic hypertophy then. Having anything over 3 with the ECC portion is pointless IMO. The CON doens't need to be over 2 at all.

    Having the same number of calories per day is also pointless since energy expenditure for each day is different based on activity level.

    Those are the 2 biggest point/problems I see.
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    you're also doing a lot of volume and making it a lot more complicated than you really need to be

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    4:4 ratio is too high. You are concentrating more on sarcoplasmic hypertophy then. Having anything over 3 with the ECC portion is pointless IMO. The CON doens't need to be over 2 at all.

    Having the same number of calories per day is also pointless since energy expenditure for each day is different based on activity level.

    Those are the 2 biggest point/problems I see.
    Alright, thanks I'll drop it down to a 3:2 and I'll cut down wasteful calories on my rest days, that is a good point and I didn't realize they would be wasted there..Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
    Alright, thanks I'll drop it down to a 3:2 and I'll cut down wasteful calories on my rest days, that is a good point and I didn't realize they would be wasted there..Thanks
    Don't stick with one ratio. Vary them.
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    Kay, thanks Bobo, your help is appreciated..Should they be varied from workout week to week no matter my progress?Or only vary them when I hit plateau?

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    Week to week.
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    I was watching a video by Milos Sarcev and he was focusing on Bench, and doing a 2 second contracted pause at the end of the eccentric motion..Would you reccomend that on top of the 3 second eccentric motion.?

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    No.
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    Bobo:

    What makes you feel HIT is not optimal?

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    Mainly the lack of variation, TUT and incorporation of time periods that allow for different types of hypertrophy. Some also find the lack of rest periods difficult because it taxes the cardiovascualr system which causes a lack of permformance when it comes to training.

    It works for a lot of people especially strength wise but its not optimal when you looking specifically for size.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Some also find the lack of rest periods difficult because it taxes the cardiovascualr system which causes a lack of permformance when it comes to training.
    Is that why every HIT football S+C coach that I hear speak talks about how 'we'll beat you in the 4th quarter?'

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    I have been following the consolidation routine which has me training just once every 7 days, performing just 2 sets per training session to failure and the results have been very good. My strength is up tremendously over the past month and I have gained a little weight but I'm really not looking to get much heavier. My deadlifts are up 40lbs and my squats have improved at a similiar rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phil216
    I have been following the consolidation routine which has me training just once every 7 days, performing just 2 sets per training session to failure and the results have been very good. My strength is up tremendously over the past month and I have gained a little weight but I'm really not looking to get much heavier. My deadlifts are up 40lbs and my squats have improved at a similiar rate.
    SO you do 2 sets a week?

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    Yeah I had looked at HIT, but I think that serves a far better purpose in relation to strength, as I am going for optimal muscle mass, and not neccessarily strenght, I think I am gonna use a TUT principled workout

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    i have found that 3 sets of 10 to 12 reps is doing well for me. when i was doing the 5 reps thing my joints hurt like hell. my strength and size has gone up with higher reps. I totally agree with the diet, I have my calories at approx 3500 and I am getting nice gains from it.
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    The key to any training is how you make adjustments. That is where the progress will happen. I can give you a program based on the same princicples everyone gets (since there are a million 6ft 175lb guys out there) but its how you progress week to week and where you take it after that which will make the difference. The majority of people come to me because of plateaus. How many calories are you adding based progress and are you eating enough for certain days. If you train legs your energy expenditure is higher than if you are just doing arms. Its those little things people overlook and its nothing complicated or tough. Its just brekaiung them down into boring numbers and figuring out that its not that difficult or complicated. Most of my clients received VERY similiar programs based on the same types of training and food but where you take it from there is up to you (your creativity plays a role). You have to make little tweaks as you progress and often they aren't even that large (what I do DURING your time makes the most difference). THAT is how you progress, not by drstiaclly changing ratios and completely revamping your training. That certainly can help but you have to constantly adjust throughout the weeks which will really make it work. If you don't, any program incuding mine, is worthless.
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    I have to say from firsthand experience over the last 9 weeks that Bobo is right here.
    I've been following a strength routine for years. I gained alot of functional strength, and I'm a pretty big guy as well...

    but I swear man since I've gotten on Bobo's CUTTING PLAN I've gained size while I've also gained definition, which is blowing my mind right now. My strength waned early in the program, but that is coming right back as well. Anybody with the money to spend needs to see for themselves the results they can get.

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    Thats because the first 2 weeks are the toughest. After that you can start making some of the food changes (and training changes) because I have an idea of how you react. Some people can go long periods of positive progess withouth changes and some need them the first week but if you don't make those little changes over time then the program is rather pointless. I jsut told someone they could have venison and they flipped out
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

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