is 5/3/1 for me - fellow PL help me please!

[Matthew1237]

Hey all, I'm just wondering if 5/3/1 would be a good program for me - I see a lot of positive stuff about wendlers 5/3/1 as far as it being a very easy and straightforward program to follow - I've read a large chunk of 5/3/1 and beyond 5/3/1. I see some people make pretty damn good progress - while others do not. I would like to try it but I hear it's something you have to commit to for several months before really seeing some solid progress. But obviously before you guys can help me much - I'll tell you a bit more about me.

I'm currently cutting - I am at about 163.5 lbs at 5'6" - I've been training consistently for 20 months now. My best lifts were at 170 I did 365 deadlift, 340 squat, and a 260 bench - so my numbers are still quite low. I started off doing bodybuilding style training, arnolds blueprint, then moved back to my teenage routes of HST, high frequency full body or upper/lower and now onto more of a push/pull approach. When I started powerlifting this past july - I went back 5x5 which I had done for a little bit and really enjoyed - I did this until I stalled out roughly at a 190x5 bench, 270x5 squat, and a 295x5 deadlift. Which to me seemed like an awfully fast stopping point for linear progression - mind you I was cutting then as well.

Since then I've tried Sheiko and then through my course of studying lots of different powerlifting routines - realized that the main principle of most is doing the big 3 lifts 2-3 times a week each and using submaximal training. Wendlers program seems to hit all these points - the only thing that scares me about it is the big commitment period before seeing much for results - but more than anything else - is the incredibly low frequency of training. I've always trained about 6 days a week, hitting lifts multiple times in a week, but with this routine you're only training 4 times a week and hitting lifts 1 time a week - which seems ass backward to everything else I've ever read. I mean obviously some people are getting results from this program and it's quite popular, but - it just feels incredibly foreign to me. I also like to do a lot of different bodybuilding exercises (just to keep a well rounded physique as well) which I feel like would not benefit from such infrequent training. Thats pretty much where I'm stuck and not sure what to do.. would love to have some advice - or feedback from those who have tried 5/3/1 especially from those who have perhaps done 5/3/1 as well as high frequency training.

 

[Matthew1237]

SweetLou321 Rodja jswain34 NurseGray MARK_ Hyde RegisterJr NomZ capo180

 

[Rodja]

You're going to find that most PL programs (DUP being an exception) are going to be 4x/week at most.

Any program requires months of commitment and you constantly bouncing from template to template isn't going to help. Pick one and commit to it for at least a year. Don't do a meet in that time and concern yourself with technique more than anything else. You can have the best programming in the world, but it won't matter at all if your technique is subpar.

 

[Matthew1237]

Yah I am sure that is very true haha - I am just so indecisive, I stuck with 5x5 for a long time but every since I stalled on it I've had trouble finding a program that suits me which has been causing me to bounce around. My problem is I enjoy being able to go the gym 6 or so days a week but then it's kind of up to me to find the right balance, things that I've learned for me personally so far is - going hard on deadlifts and squats on the same day doesn't really work, my lower back needs more recovery than almost anything else, and upper/lower splits tend to fail due to the insane length it takes to train upper vs lower (way more muscle groups)

 

[Rodja]

Yah I am sure that is very true haha - I am just so indecisive, I stuck with 5x5 for a long time but every since I stalled on it I've had trouble finding a program that suits me which has been causing me to bounce around. My problem is I enjoy being able to go the gym 6 or so days a week but then it's kind of up to me to find the right balance, things that I've learned for me personally so far is - going hard on deadlifts and squats on the same day doesn't really work, my lower back needs more recovery than almost anything else, and upper/lower splits tend to fail due to the insane length it takes to train upper vs lower (way more muscle groups)

I can knock out an upper-body session in about 90 minutes. Two presses, two rows, and one thing for biceps and triceps. Delts vary, but we're not talking about a group that requires great amounts of effort. Lower body is done in about the same time unless it's a geared session.

 

[Matthew1237]

Yah that usually an issue for me - thats again why I try to go for frequency - I usually hit the gym with my GF , and we're both in taking university courses, so its hard to find that much time - I mean it can be doable - but an hour works a bit more, because by the time we get ready, eat, drive there and back and eat again it's another 60-90 minutes tacked on to a 90 minute workout. I broke down the percentages on wendlers program though, at least to duplicate and modify in something that may be more my own speed - to be completely honest - and I could be wrong - but I don't really care about press enough to give it its own day. I still do the exercise but its usually more of an accessory than a main movement. Is this poor thinking? I feel like I'd rather just have another bench day and work on bench than having a press day. Seems like it would be more beneficial to powerlifting - but I'm not much more than a new intermediate at best so what do I know XD

My preferred exercises are typically:Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Cable Rows, Chins, Press, Incline Bench, Cable Flys, Lat Pullovers, Lunges, Lying Leg Curls, Side Laterals, Reverse Fly, 1 bicep & tricep exercise or superset. Dips are more of a dream exercise for me - used to be able to do them when I was younger but they always tend to **** my shoulder up, but maybe thats just because I go too hard on them, might try and give them a shot again.

 

[Rodja]

Yah that usually an issue for me - thats again why I try to go for frequency - I usually hit the gym with my GF , and we're both in taking university courses, so its hard to find that much time - I mean it can be doable - but an hour works a bit more, because by the time we get ready, eat, drive there and back and eat again it's another 60-90 minutes tacked on to a 90 minute workout. I broke down the percentages on wendlers program though, at least to duplicate and modify in something that may be more my own speed - to be completely honest - and I could be wrong - but I don't really care about press enough to give it its own day. I still do the exercise but its usually more of an accessory than a main movement. Is this poor thinking? I feel like I'd rather just have another bench day and work on bench than having a press day. Seems like it would be more beneficial to powerlifting - but I'm not much more than a new intermediate at best so what do I know XD

My preferred exercises are typically:Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Cable Rows, Chins, Press, Incline Bench, Cable Flys, Lat Pullovers, Lunges, Lying Leg Curls, Side Laterals, Reverse Fly, 1 bicep & tricep exercise or superset. Dips are more of a dream exercise for me - used to be able to do them when I was younger but they always tend to **** my shoulder up, but maybe thats just because I go too hard on them, might try and give them a shot again.

Wouldn't going to train two fewer days save far more time than extended the session by ~30 minutes?

The OHP doesn't get enough credit for its ability as a foundation lift. It teaches how to press from a dead stop while engaging practically every muscle group in the body. For lats, focus on BB/DB rows as opposed to cables and/or pulldowns.

 

[Matthew1237]

Wouldn't going to train two fewer days save far more time than extended the session by ~30 minutes?

The OHP doesn't get enough credit for its ability as a foundation lift. It teaches how to press from a dead stop while engaging practically every muscle group in the body. For lats, focus on BB/DB rows as opposed to cables and/or pulldowns.

Perhaps I'll give it it's own day - I dunno - I just feel like I can add it onto a bench day and still get a good amount of work done with it - last time I tried to progress it rapidly I found it gave me some shoulder/scapula discomfort after a while. But that may mean I just need more stretching. As for cable rows I just do them as to not strain my lower back too much, I found sometimes after doing them my lower back and hips in conjunction with doing squats and deadlifts would just get overloaded after a week or two where as when doing cable rows my lower back and hips are a bit more supported, I suppose I could just rock DB rows and support myself on a bench =D that would work!

Maybe I just need to learn what the hell a rest day is LOL - I honestly try not to take that many - maybe 1-2 days a week max. I just always learned that it's better to chronically stimulate the muscles than to do a bunch in one day. I can't find the link to them but there was a few studies that showed that even when volume was the same, say 9 sets of 5 in one day vs 3 sets of 5 three days a week, the frequent sessions showed a better ability to produce strength and size. But maybe I'm just being a big damn nerd lol

 

[NomZ]

Agreed with Rodja on a few points. Pick one and stick with it.

5/3/1 is fine, but you need to make it work with the frequency being lower and increasing the accessory volume. I also always benched twice a week on 5/3/1 and squatted twice a week.

 

[Matthew1237]

Agreed with Rodja on a few points. Pick one and stick with it.

5/3/1 is fine, but you need to make it work with the frequency being lower and increasing the accessory volume. I also always benched twice a week on 5/3/1 and squatted twice a week.

Yah - today I literally just went and broke down the percentages on all the sets as that's more or less what any powerlifting program breaks down to. Would you mind giving me a brief layout of the way you ran it? Or did you just add bench into the press day and light squats on the deadlift day?

 

[Famine]

http://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator

The 5-3-1 calculator has 21 different templates that will create programs for you, even telling you what weight to lift to make proper gains. And if you've read some of the 531 literature, you know that you can swap out any of the auxiliary movements as long as you're hitting the same muscle. On top of that, you can change all sorts of settings to make the workouts easier or more difficult by using more or fewer de-load days, joker sets, and down sets. You could literally do a different workout every month for the next few years if you wanted to.

As for the time it takes to make gains...don't take this the wrong way, but I'm leery of that statement. This is not an immediate satisfaction sport. It takes years to obtain goals. Anything that claims awesome gains inside of a month is BS. That being said, I've used a dozen different programs over the years, and 531 has allowed me to make the most significant gains.

 

[NomZ]

Yah - today I literally just went and broke down the percentages on all the sets as that's more or less what any powerlifting program breaks down to. Would you mind giving me a brief layout of the way you ran it? Or did you just add bench into the press day and light squats on the deadlift day?

Bench press after OHP.

Moderate volume squat triples before deadlifts as a pre-fatigue.

 

[Matthew1237]

http://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator

The 5-3-1 calculator has 21 different templates that will create programs for you, even telling you what weight to lift to make proper gains. And if you've read some of the 531 literature, you know that you can swap out any of the auxiliary movements as long as you're hitting the same muscle. On top of that, you can change all sorts of settings to make the workouts easier or more difficult by using more or fewer de-load days, joker sets, and down sets. You could literally do a different workout every month for the next few years if you wanted to.

As for the time it takes to make gains...don't take this the wrong way, but I'm leery of that statement. This is not an immediate satisfaction sport. It takes years to obtain goals. Anything that claims awesome gains inside of a month is BS. That being said, I've used a dozen different programs over the years, and 531 has allowed me to make the most significant gains.

Yah!!! That calculator is the absolute ****ing beez kneez, that's what I've actually been looking at for the past few days. And no worries about the comment, I don't take it personal and know that it's definitely a lifestyle rather than a monthly endeavor. I guess more so what I was referring the few people that said they did a few cycles and made little to no progress, I mean I did sheiko 29 and 30 and added a solid amount to all my lifts in two months - but that could be more of a drive and effort thing with people who failed to make progress. This stuff is kind of my life - always has been despite the break I took in university, I guess that's why I'm so picky about things, I really want to succeed and compete and possibly even become an IPF lifter/ IFBB pro (in that order) I just enjoy everything lifting related.

Bench press after OHP.

Moderate volume squat triples before deadlifts as a pre-fatigue.

Ahh okay that's what I was guessing.

 

[Famine]

Yah!!! That calculator is the absolute ****ing beez kneez, that's what I've actually been looking at for the past few days. And no worries about the comment, I don't take it personal and know that it's definitely a lifestyle rather than a monthly endeavor. I guess more so what I was referring the few people that said they did a few cycles and made little to no progress, I mean I did sheiko 29 and 30 and added a solid amount to all my lifts in two months - but that could be more of a drive and effort thing with people who failed to make progress. This stuff is kind of my life - always has been despite the break I took in university, I guess that's why I'm so picky about things, I really want to succeed and compete and possibly even become an IPF lifter/ IFBB pro (in that order) I just enjoy everything lifting related.


Ahh okay that's what I was guessing.

Ahh, I see what you're saying about those who didn't make gains. And I think I see why. It does take a while to play with the 1RM numbers to create a workout that is actually taxing on the body, yeah, totally get it now. My 1RM numbers that I put into the calculator are a lot bigger than my actual 1RM.

TIP: When using the calculator, I play with the 1RM numbers so that the single lift during week 3 is just a little bigger than what I think I can do. That usually gives me a pretty tough workout. And the first three warm up sets for the big 4 movements are usually pretty light; I sometimes bump those up a little.

I'm glad you like the calculator. I've created a lot of good routines from it.

 

[jswain34]

Use the training max. This isn't a game of immediate gratification. I read an article where Wendler talks about people using their real max vs the training max. The training max has it's place, and i highly recommend it. You'll have good days and bad days in the gym and the purpose of the TM is to adjust for that. You'll set PRs on good days and on bad days you still get quality work in.

Wendler works, i used it for the better part of 2 years and it built the majority of my total as well as my muscle mass. If you want to up the frequency of the comp lifts, do it, that makes total sense to me. Id say bench/squat twice a week and deadlift once. I like the idea of pre fatiguing deads with squats as Nomz mentioned. Add in some form of bench after OP and boom you're set. I followed the dave tate periodization bible for assistance work and loved it. Its simple, but you'll make strength and hypertrophy gains.

Edit:

The week 3 1+ set isnt for hitting a max single. Thats what the additional (optional) joker sets are for. If you feel like youve got a 1 rep PR in you then go for it, if not, you hit your 1+ set and move on.

Dunno if you have read this, but he covers a lot in this article:

https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/531-how-to-build-pure-strength

 

[RegisterJr]

I agree with JSwain in using a TM instead of a >100% every singles week. Most singles week I 1+ or hit my 95% for a few singles.

 

[Famine]

What I was saying about the 1RM numbers is if you're using the calculator online. If I put in 340 pounds as my 1RM on the calculator, it has me doing a single rep during week three of 295. I can't bench 340 pounds, but that's the number I have to put in to reach the TM of 295. That's what I was referring to. You have to play with the numbers.

 

[herderdude]

What I was saying about the 1RM numbers is if you're using the calculator online. If I put in 340 pounds as my 1RM on the calculator, it has me doing a single rep during week three of 295. I can't bench 340 pounds, but that's the number I have to put in to reach the TM of 295. That's what I was referring to. You have to play with the numbers.

It's not week three that Wendler is worried about. It's week 33, or week 333. It's a long term thing. Nobody that's truly strong got there overnight, it's the result of a good, long-term plan. That's 5/3/1, a long term plan.

By the way, most people on week three of 5/3/1 get about 4-6 reps of their top set. Its designed to challenge you with reps at heavy weight. Not pure heavy weight.

 

[Audioph1x]

Yeah the last "1+" in week 3 does not mean try and hit 1+ of your TM. It means hit AMRAP for the last prescribed weight for "1+". You should be hitting that weight for at least a clean triple.