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  1. Elite Member
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    bump on my question for Bobo or str8

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    It depends on the protein source. If its a whole food with high fat content is will easily slow digestion but if its powders then they will be processed at a faster rate (although somewaht different depedning on source)

    If you are eating a meal then a good lean source of slow protein is good pre-workout then post workout you DEFINETLY want a fast source (whey).

    If you pre workout meal consists of a shake then a good whey/casein mix would be good.

    There are just a lot of variables to take into account.
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    That's interesting but which do you think is better? It seems that there are two ways to look at this. One has you taking whey/simple carbs preworkout which may inhibit a little GH release (also might actually make you tired) but the other has you taking whey/simple carbs post workout which may kick you out of the so-called "fat burning state". It seems to me that it is best to stay low GI both pre and post workout.
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    I was talking about protein sources, not carbs.

    The carb discussion is completely different and been beaten to death.
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    I go w/ a regular whey from GNC (got it on sale) w/ dextrose pre-WO, then BCAA's plus some other aminos during WO, then the same whey w/ low GI post-WO. Probably 70 g total from all 3.

    You think this sounds ok? The pre shake is about 20 mins before.
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    I don't like high GI pre-workout simply because you can crash in the middle of your workout. I prefer a whole meal consisting of low-mod GI 45-60 minutes pre workout then if you need some energy before hand, some fruit is perfect.

    If you can't ge tthat meal in the a 50/50 dextrose/fructose mix is good.
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    Yeah, I know about the crash. Have felt it when I took the dex/whey shake too far in advance. But, I've got all this dex (about 8 lbs or so) left when I bought a case of 12 for high GI post-WO. So, I figure I'll get rid of it by taking 20 g pre-WO along w/ 5 g +10 g sucrose during WO.

    Anyway, thanks for the knowledge about low GI post-WO. And the CEE/HMB/Arg/Lys synergy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I don't like high GI pre-workout simply because you can crash in the middle of your workout. I prefer a whole meal consisting of low-mod GI 45-60 minutes pre workout then if you need some energy before hand, some fruit is perfect.

    If you can't ge tthat meal in the a 50/50 dextrose/fructose mix is good.

    I totally agree with this. I have experimented on myself with different pre/post meals. The best that I've found (no crashes and good recovery) is if I eat a whole food meal about 1-1.5 hours pre-workout consisting of clean carbs and protein. Post workout, I've found that pounding a straight whey shake on the way home and then eating whole food about 30-60 minutes after that. If I have my metabolism in high gear, then I may even eat 15-20 minutes after a post workout shake
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    I personally have found just a half scoop of WPI 10-20min pre with at most 10g of non-fructose carbohydrate. Usually though I prefer to totally omit the carb. But since I don't workout till the afternoon I usually already have 1 or 2 meals in me and a good amount of carbs. Post workout I also don't go high carb/glycemic. My shake consists of: 1 scoop whey, 1 banana, 2 raw eggs, natural jam (15g carb), some frozen blueberries. The carbs probably don't go higher than 40g.

    I guess what I'm saying is high GI carbs have never felt quite right to me. Having carb pre workout feels "dirty", slow in a sense. Besides, isn't it likely that part of the WPI pre will get used as glucose?
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    Yes but why would you want that?

    I would throw some form of carb in there or just eat some fruit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    Besides, isn't it likely that part of the WPI pre will get used as glucose?
    But why would you want your WPI to be used as glucose? That stuff is expensive. Why not just use some carbs, which are cheap as hell.
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    Because usually I would have enough glycogen/circulating glucose to serve as energy. The small amount of amino acids just act as an anticatabolic. Then, if (and I think that's a big if) I don't the amino CAN be used in place whithout the added insulin response that carbs would create. I mean, I'm talking 10-20 minutes preworkout here. Also, I wouldn't really want fruit floating around in my stomach while I'm lifting.
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    Its pretty simple. The last time you want to limit carbs is before a workout. Its just doesn't make sense at all. The small amount of amino acids will more than likely be converted into glucose. Carbs are probably more anti-catabolic at this point. The last thing you want to do is increase gluconeogensis. Your worry about insulin release at this point really has no basis. Amino's are insulinogenic so the insulin release is happening regardless.

    Most fruits digest fairly rapidly. If you can't handle a banana or something along that lines then something is wrong. Limiting carbs before a workout just doesn't make any sense at all.

    The bottom line is that if you taking WPI with no carbs pre-workout you can bet almost 100% is being converted into glucose. Its simply is a waste of whey.
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    Okay. I've always heard the opposite: carbs are a priority after a workout and should be limited before a workout. Since most of the WPI would get turned to sugar, does this also hold true for things like BCAA (with no carbns) supplementation? This is really interesting because, like I said, it is so different from what I'm used to hearing.
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    Who told you that? That is completely false. Why would you ever want to limit your primary energy source before any glycogen dependent exercise? You want amino acids to be used for their real function (building blocks) not be converted in glucose as fuel. Catabolic activity will be increased if gluconeogenesis is increased and without adding any carb source pre workout that will DEFINETLY happen.

    Any amino acids will be converted into glucose if inadequate fuel sources are not present.

    Serisouly, whoever told you that no carbs pre workout is better has no idea what tehy are talking about. Adequate carbs should be maintained throughout the day to keep glycogen content adequate but more importantly should be centered around any activity to reduce catabolic activity.
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    What do you think of the school of thought that suggests that the overall hormonal response to exercise is more important than the temporary anticatabolic effects one acheives through taking carbs preworkout? Essentialy, they say that taking carbs preworkout will limit the GH release one gets from intense training and therefore not maximize testosterone response. Have you ever read Natural Hormonal Enhancement by Rob Faigin? It talks about these things and is actually a really good read and well researched.

    Also--just to clear up my understanding of what you're saying--do you find that it is still necessary to take carbs preworkout even if the trainee has already had several meals that included carbohydrates?
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    The hormonal responses that occur during training will happen regardless whether you take protein or carbs. It isn't going to change any results by one simple meal. Plus the GH response and testosterone response have nothing to do with each other at all.

    The whole "school of though" doesn't sound like a school at all. It sounds like fiction. I would like to see the research because the majority of these so called natural hormone books rely on taking tidbits out of context and stretching them to fit their personal beliefs. You tell someone that there is an increase in GH and they will love hearing that when in reality it has zero bearing on anything because its a simple response when energy substrate is low and insulin is low. GH is a lipolytic hormone more than anything, not an anabolic one. People think than increasing GH increases gains and it doesn't. Its a myth. Of course the GH release will increase when no carb source is present because it will create a more catabolic environment when preforming glycogen dependent exercises. TO counter this the body increases GH production to attempt to counter the increases catabolic activity. You simply don't want this condition during resistant training. Its counterproductive to any goal in bodybuilding. It makes no sense at all.

    Anyone telling you that limiting carbs pre workout is actually good for you in terms of muscle gain is simply....well I won't say it.


    You don't seem to understand that whatever you take pre-workout the eventual fate and results is predominantly glucose because of what is to performed during the workout. So what is the point of wasting protein?

    If you have a whole meal consisting of low-mod GI 45-60 minutes pre workout the need for an immediate carb source right before workout is not needed because glyocgen stores are adequate if you have a slow-mod release of energy substrate. Protein is best used with a carb, not without.
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    As for Robert Faigin, he is carb scared and just another one of these low carb enthusiasts.


    " In order to get out of the sugar-burning mode, you must see to it that glucose is unavailable to your metabolism. This means not only incoming glucose in the form of carbohydrate, but also glucose stored inside your body as glycogen. "


    Why in the world would you EVER want that? First of all glucose will always be present in your body. Brain function relies on it and if you were without it, you'd be dead.

    Plus if you reduce your carb intake to 20g/day like he suggests dring your first 7 day peroid then guess what they fate is of about 50% of the protein you ingest? Glucose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Why in the world would you EVER want that? First of all glucose will always be present in your body. Brain function relies on it and if you were without it, you'd be dead.
    But can't ketones be used in place of glucose? I'm just going off of what I read in Faigin's book. Although I'm not trying to defend his work or anything, I just find it strange that if his research (all 1500 references) really was taken out of context why would the book be endorsed by so many educated people including an entire University? I really don't know why I'm arguing with you other than for the sake of knowing about this a little more in depth.

    Bobo, you definitely deserve the title "head clown" and I mean that in a good way. Maybe you could point me in the right direction with some book recommendations?
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    Ketones actually will be broken down into the same thing glucose will, ATP but your body will never eliminate glucose. It simply will never survive. The only other thing brain functions can operate with is manose but that is whole different subject.

    His book is nothing new. Its the same thing as any low carb advocate will say. Its simply the same old arguement. You could read every book by Lyle and get the same stuff or any book dedicated to a ketogenic diet.

    Why would people endorse something? Money.

    Now OTOH everything I have said is actually taught at EVERY University. If doens't need endorsements because its accepted fact.

    It comes down to this. What he says in a techincal aspect can be viewed as being correct but he does what so many people do. They concentrate on the minutia while forgetting about the big picture especially when it comes to bodybuilding.

    I could easily make a case why low carb diets could work. I could site every Duke University study and make the arguement sound legit. In fact, I did it for a long time but the simplt fact is that low carb diets will stall out much faster than a 40/40/20 diet. I have done it every way possible and 90% of my clients come from failed low carb diets. They can get you to a point but then fail miserably at lower bf%. Your body simply needs carbohydrates for so many functions.
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    In fact, a good friend of mine finished 2nd in nationals about 3 months ago in Florida and he never went below 350g carbs per day. That should tell you something
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    I love it. All tose BB'ers out there struggling on their low-carb diet, and here I am and other trianee's of Bobo's losing weight, and eating carbs!

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    Bobo,

    Not to sound condesending here, but while I agree with what you're saying, I KNOW people who have achieve a very low level bodyfat for competition while using a low/no carb diet (with a cheat day for spiking metabolism) for an extended period of time (12-16 weeks).

    2 people were doing this "clean" as in no illegal drugs and 4 others were doing this "enhanced".

    All of them faired well in their competitions. One who was dieting naturally won the Muscle Mania in Toronto a few years ago and another got their Pro Card at the Canadians last year.

    Like I said, I don't disagree with your theory but the low/no carb diet CAN work just like anything else other there. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

    Now... on a side note here. The guy who won Muscle Mania a few years ago and was doing it cleanly... did come in at the best shape of his entire life. This year when competing for the Canadians and then the Worlds in Moscow he followed a high carb, moderate protein and no fat diet for his contest prep. Didn't come in as good of condidition as the muscle mania (still looked amazing) but had a much, much easier time of dieting while doing it because of the carbs.

    Two different approaches and two successful results.
  24. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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    The final weeks of a pre-contest diet usually is low carb to eliminate water and to give a more finished look but almost 99% of bodybuilders that compete never start out their diet low carb, ever. At least the pro's don't. Its a gradual process of tapering down everything over a peroid of time.


    Ask around. I have 3 pro's that I consistently talk to about this locally.

    Plus, who said they don't work. I specifically said they have a much better chance of stalling out.

    And they do.


    And please, its not my "theory". What I have stated is nutritional fact. The "low carb" way is based more on theory than anything. I also know people that eat Mcdonalds and stay a very low bf% so the guy you mentioned above is not the norm at all but more likley an exception to the rule. There will always be people like that. Last time I checked I watched Ronnie Coleman drench his chicken in bb'cue sauce.


    But as far as the majority goes, the low carb way will work only to a point. These guys market their books as accepted fact that will work for everyone and that isn 't remotely true.


    For every one of the guys you can mention above, I can name 10 that would never do follow a low carb diet 16 weeks and they all compete and all have tried it. Sustained low carb for the majority will fail when it comes to bodybuilding. And I'm talking about maintaing every bit of muscle and strenght WHILE dieting and achieving a low bf%. You can achieve weight loss with practially any diet to a point but to get to single digit and low bf% the majority of people will fail on low carb diets. Hell I took the MOD at C-K-D.com and showed him and now he will never touch low carb again.
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  25. Doctor Science
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    If you want to go low gi post workout, oats are a poor choice, you would be better off with potatoe or rice.

    haha this one was definitely my favorite!!!!! lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryansm
    I love it. All tose BB'ers out there struggling on their low-carb diet, and here I am and other trianee's of Bobo's losing weight, and eating carbs!
    I'm sitting here enjoying my protein and oats as I'm reading this. I completely agree with Bobo's assessment that low carb diets will eventually fail. I will never go low carb again. My workouts suffer a lot less because of this as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    In fact, a good friend of mine finished 2nd in nationals about 3 months ago in Florida and he never went below 350g carbs per day. That should tell you something
    Just curious- A minimum of 350 grams is pretty high. I'm assuming he's a fairly large dude?
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    Nope. 185lbs.
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    How the hell did you pull that off? I guess I will find out soon enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NPursuit
    I'm sitting here enjoying my protein and oats as I'm reading this. I completely agree with Bobo's assessment that low carb diets will eventually fail. I will never go low carb again. My workouts suffer a lot less because of this as well.
    Isn't life grand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Nope. 185lbs.
    I'm guessing he did a ton of cardio.
  32. SJA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    I'm guessing he did a ton of cardio.

    .....and conditioning workouts
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    His cardio was sitting on a bike for 2 hours per day at VERY low intensity.

    And remember, just because he could do it, doens't mean you could. You have to remember, this guy has been training for 17 years. The amount of muscle density he has is MUCH higher than the majority of people.

    Its not like he's 6 foot either. He is 5'8
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  34. SJA
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    Why on a bike and why such low intensity? I'm guessing that he has a very high metabolism and you were afraid of catabolism?

    .....and what were his workouts like? Circuit/conditioning or rest periods?
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    Because that is what works best for him.

    He's 39 years old. His metabolism isn't that fast.

    His workout are nothing special.


    That about all I can say about that. There is no magic beans or magic pills. He's all natural and has been for 17 years.

    He is where he's at because of hard work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryansm
    How the hell did you pull that off? I guess I will find out soon enough.

    FYI I am not training him. I have given him suggestions that he has incorporated but this is not someone I train. He's just a good friend. He doens't need me at all.
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    By liftbig74 in forum Supplements
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    Last Post: 02-22-2008, 01:45 PM
  5. So all these are the exact same?...
    By nosnmiveins in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-22-2008, 10:25 PM

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