Overrated movements

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    Overrated movements


    So there was a heated discussion between some people at the gym last night. They were discussing movements that were overated. Movements that everyone does but aren't all that good, effective, or just hard to do properly. So I was wondering what everyones opinons are on exercises that may be overated based on the above criteria.

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    Cleans.
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    I'll argue for cleans all day, everyday. It's not for everyone but that's because of coordination and technique, not because it isn't effective
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdb2 View Post
    I'll argue for cleans all day, everyday. It's not for everyone but that's because of coordination and technique, not because it isn't effective
    Thanks, because I like 'em and have gotten quite a bit of trap mass from them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdb2 View Post
    I'll argue for cleans all day, everyday. It's not for everyone but that's because of coordination and technique, not because it isn't effective
    I didn't say they weren't effective.

    Did you read the criteria at all?
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    Cable tricep extensions. I get nothing out of them.
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    -Tricep Kick backs of any sort, most people just work calves and rotator cuffs with them...
    -BB or DB upright rows , overrated and better rear-delt, trap and scapular activation exercises without the high risk of injury.
    -Crunches , should spend more time building the core with other movements rather than just crunches, i.e. Planks (variations) , Oblique work with bands , heavy squats, etc...
    -Seated Machine Leg extensions , this is just my opinion but I think it got popular due to the love for it from BBers but I think for mass, and strength development, far better knee extension movements exist i.e. Front Squat, Hack Squat, Lunges, etc...

    Hm...just to name a few i guess...
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    Anyway, for most people (average gymrats) cleans aren't effective.

    There is no eccentric portion (where most muscle damage and growth comes from) and they are very technical, making then hard to learn on your own.

    They're great for athletes, when performed properly. But the majority of gym goers will not get a lot from them, and most likely will not be doing them correctly (let alone programming them into a routine correctly)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Anyway, for most people (average gymrats) cleans aren't effective.

    There is no eccentric portion (where most muscle damage and growth comes from) and they are very technical, making then hard to learn on your own.

    They're great for athletes, when performed properly. But the majority of gym goers will not get a lot from them, and most likely will not be doing them correctly (let alone programming them into a routine correctly)
    This reminds me of an old Rodja post I read about Cleans from him. He was schooling someone who claimed they were his Muscle builders on a west-side hybrid power day since they were needed as a power movements. His precise words were a lot like that...that without an eccentric portion it's not really a hypertrophy movement but rather a explosive and CNS involving lift? Something the like if I recall correctly.

    Anyhow I agree...are they Overrated? Yes, specially since Crossfitters all around the country do them so poorly and sadly lately and think they will get huge by doing sets of 10+ sad-cleans...(specially when they are highly technical and cns taxing lifts that should be kept in a 2-5? range of reps with proper rest in between to avoid the major risk of injury)
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    A hang clean is pretty simple to pick up and execute properly. A full power clean, however, is far from it and requires considerable time. However, that itself doesn't make them overrated as a properly executed bench press also takes 1000s of reps to truly get the form as well.

    Regarding the eccentric phase, it is the phase that causes the most damage, but it's closer to a 55/45 split and is only a portion of what causes hypertrophy. Frequency and volume are going to be primary factors that elicit hypertrophy more so than cadence, but that's OT.
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    ( For beginners or intermediates) hammer strength equipment and machines. I hate seeing this with noobs in the gym, if you haven't learned proper form on bench press you have no place on a hammer strength bench.

    Swiss ball anything, balancing exercises are dangerous and any benefit you get from them is way to small compared to the injuries you can receive by doing them.

    Smith machine, same as hammer strength except in my opinion it also adds way to much stress on the joints because your body can't adjust like a free weight bar, your body is going where the weight is telling you.

    Kettle bells..... Because there are dumbbells
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    This reminds me of an old Rodja post I read about Cleans from him. He was schooling someone who claimed they were his Muscle builders on a west-side hybrid power day since they were needed as a power movements. His precise words were a lot like that...that without an eccentric portion it's not really a hypertrophy movement but rather a explosive and CNS involving lift? Something the like if I recall correctly.

    Anyhow I agree...are they Overrated? Yes, specially since Crossfitters all around the country do them so poorly and sadly lately and think they will get huge by doing sets of 10+ sad-cleans...(specially when they are highly technical and cns taxing lifts that should be kept in a 2-5? range of reps with proper rest in between to avoid the major risk of injury)
    I can't say I've seen it. Although, it would surprise me that he would say that.

    I couldn't definitively say about rep ranges, I just recently started studying programming for the Olympic lifts (more specifically Olympic lifters).
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    A hang clean is pretty simple to pick up and execute properly. A full power clean, however, is far from it and requires considerable time. However, that itself doesn't make them overrated as a properly executed bench press also takes 1000s of reps to truly get the form as well.

    Regarding the eccentric phase, it is the phase that causes the most damage, but it's closer to a 55/45 split and is only a portion of what causes hypertrophy. Frequency and volume are going to be primary factors that elicit hypertrophy more so than cadence, but that's OT.
    I can agree that a hang clean is easier to learn, but I don't agree that it is easy. I see people every single day that do terrible hang cleans/power cleans/snatches/etc.
    I still think for the average gym goer any clean is overrated. There are more effective and less technical ways to achieve the same result (specifically for hypertrophy, strength, and power).

    I was generalizing. It is more complex than just eccentric causing hypertrophy, but there are still better ways to build muscle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigcountry08 View Post
    ( For beginners or intermediates) hammer strength equipment and machines. I hate seeing this with noobs in the gym, if you haven't learned proper form on bench press you have no place on a hammer strength bench.

    Swiss ball anything, balancing exercises are dangerous and any benefit you get from them is way to small compared to the injuries you can receive by doing them.

    Smith machine, same as hammer strength except in my opinion it also adds way to much stress on the joints because your body can't adjust like a free weight bar, your body is going where the weight is telling you.

    Kettle bells..... Because there are dumbbells
    You think kettlebells are overrated lol?

    I think KBs are awesome.
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    kettlebells are ok but primal bells are awesome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I can't say I've seen it. Although, it would surprise me that he would say that.

    I couldn't definitively say about rep ranges, I just recently started studying programming for the Olympic lifts (more specifically Olympic lifters).


    I can agree that a hang clean is easier to learn, but I don't agree that it is easy. I see people every single day that do terrible hang cleans/power cleans/snatches/etc.
    I still think for the average gym goer any clean is overrated. There are more effective and less technical ways to achieve the same result (specifically for hypertrophy, strength, and power).

    I was generalizing. It is more complex than just eccentric causing hypertrophy, but there are still better ways to build muscle.
    Nearly every compound lift is technical and difficult to learn to perform properly. A squat is extremely technical, but that is not a reason to neglect it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    Nearly every compound lift is technical and difficult to learn to perform properly. A squat is extremely technical, but that is not a reason to neglect it.
    Would you really say that a clean is as effective for hypertrophy/strength gains as a full squat?

    Risk vs reward. They are both technical compound lifts, but the reward greatly outweighs the risk in the squat. I don't believe it does for a clean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Would you really say that a clean is as effective for hypertrophy/strength gains as a full squat?

    Risk vs reward. They are both technical compound lifts, but the reward greatly outweighs the risk in the squat. I don't believe it does for a clean.
    You're deviating from the point and anything with considerable gain comes with considerable risk and ****ty technique will always cause problems. Again, most people don't squat, bench, or pull correctly because they haven't taken the time to truly understand the lifts and realize that they're each full-body movements. Even small things lift footwear are neglected when it comes to learning these lifts as different lifts use different shoes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    You're deviating from the point and anything with considerable gain comes with considerable risk and ****ty technique will always cause problems. Again, most people don't squat, bench, or pull correctly because they haven't taken the time to truly understand the lifts and realize that they're each full-body movements. Even small things lift footwear are neglected when it comes to learning these lifts as different lifts use different shoes.

    http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask...extension.html

    http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask...htm#question02
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    And your point is?
    What my point has been this entire time.

    There are better alternatives for hypertrophy/strength/power/athleticism than the Olympic llifts.
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    Overrated lift in my opinion is dumbbell front raises. Front delts get enough work
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I didn't say they weren't effective.

    Did you read the criteria at all?
    "So there was a heated discussion between some people at the gym last night. They were discussing movements that were overated. Movements that everyone does but aren't all that good, effective, or just hard to do properly. So I was wondering what everyones opinons are on exercises that may be overated based on the above criteria."


    I did, indeed, read the criteria. It's just my opinion that they are not overrated. Are they appropriate for all training goals? No and you clearly understand that. I do think you can make a fair argument based on, if nothing else, empirical evidence that they can be effective for hypertrophy, however. The upper back and posterior chain of people who regularly perform olympic lifts is extremely well developed even if you attribute a lot of the overall leg development to the high volume of squatting they perform. Is it best suited for hypertrophy? Not in my opinion, but i still consider it a valuable tool

    We just disagree which may be more common discussing oly lifting than anything in this game so it's not unexpected
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    They were discussing movements that were overated. Movements that everyone does but aren't all that good, effective, or just hard to do properly.
    It is going to depend on your goals but, in general, if it is something, as you say, everyone does!? I have to agree with curls. Absolutely everyone does them and in fact it is the first thing a person does when they grab a light DB. Personally, you can get really good bicep strength & development from chins, rows, pullups, etc etc. I rarely if ever curl anymore. Years ago I would have called you crazy saying curls.
    I can't say exercises like kickbacks are OVER rated, because I don't even think they should be rated at all HAHAHAHA so there, from what my goals are anyway.

    Cleans are a great exercise and if you are an oly lifter, they are one of the 2 lifts, so how could they ever be considered over rated!?

    That all said, I was gonna put in the Turkish Get Up, but no, "kneeling squats"...! Doesn't everybody do em???????? Har har

    I even think WSB abandoned those.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBlack View Post
    It is going to depend on your goals but, in general, if it is something, as you say, everyone does!? I have to agree with curls. Absolutely everyone does them and in fact it is the first thing a person does when they grab a light DB. Personally, you can get really good bicep strength & development from chins, rows, pullups, etc etc. I rarely if ever curl anymore. Years ago I would have called you crazy saying curls.
    I can't say exercises like kickbacks are OVER rated, because I don't even think they should be rated at all HAHAHAHA so there, from what my goals are anyway.

    Cleans are a great exercise and if you are an oly lifter, they are one of the 2 lifts, so how could they ever be considered over rated!?

    That all said, I was gonna put in the Turkish Get Up, but no, "kneeling squats"...! Doesn't everybody do em???????? Har har

    I even think WSB abandoned those.

    Yeah not many people at my gym anyway do oly type lifts

    The main arguements were over Barbell bench press, pull ups, front shoulder raises, barbell shoulder press, leg presses and movements like these




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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    front shoulder raises,
    Then agree ^. Although I should not even comment on a lift I have done maybe 3 times in my entire life.
    Compound lifts utilizing the most body mass first and foremost.
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    Any exercise that doesnt help you accomplish your goals is "overrated". Gotta look at bang for your buck and cost vs benefit when selecting lifts/loading parameters/rest between sets/ect...and now does the lift you selected (and other specifics listed previously) interfere with other lifts...what about order...what about progression...the process goes on and on. See, this is why proper programming is so damn important for the lifter who wants long term gains and injury prevention. Idk just my .02
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    Anything with 'smith machine' in front of it?

    Begin flaming in
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    GO...
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    Quote Originally Posted by napalm View Post
    Anything with 'smith machine' in front of it?

    Begin flaming in
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    What about smith machine lunges? ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by napalm View Post
    Anything with 'smith machine' in front of it?

    Begin flaming in
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    Rack chins in a smith ain't so bad haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    What my point has been this entire time.

    There are better alternatives for hypertrophy/strength/power/athleticism than the Olympic llifts.
    Because DeFranco says so? Ok, buddy...

    If you would actually read his explanation that isn't conjugate driven, it's because they take a lot of time to perfect, which is very true, but that's an asinine reason to toss them out completely. It takes years to perfect a bench press, too, but that would be a moronic reason to exclude it from a template. DeFranco is not a technician as clearly evidenced by the technique used by many of his athletes and it is dangerous and irresponsible (one of my major beefs with CrossFit) to implement something in which the coach is not proficient.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    Because DeFranco says so? Ok, buddy...

    If you would actually read his explanation that isn't conjugate driven, it's because they take a lot of time to perfect, which is very true, but that's an asinine reason to toss them out completely. It takes years to perfect a bench press, too, but that would be a moronic reason to exclude it from a template. DeFranco is not a technician as clearly evidenced by the technique used by many of his athletes and it is dangerous and irresponsible (one of my major beefs with CrossFit) to implement something in which the coach is not proficient.
    I was under the impression that DeFranco was a well respected coach, but I can understand how you getting a degree makes everything coaches who have more experience training athletes than you obsolete. I have read it. I've stated my reasons for believing the cleans are overrated. And posted a well respected coaches own opinions on oly lifts.

    But go ahead and live in your own little fantasy world where everything you post on AM is taken as the God's honest truth because you have a degree and coaches who train real athletes have no real experience because they don't agree with everything the all powerful Rodja has to say.

    I don't deny that you are an intelligent guy, and very well educated on lifting. But don't be so arrogant to think your opinion is the only one that has any merit to it.

    Also, keep in mind I never said they were worthless. I said for MOST gym goers there are better ways to achieve the same (or better) results. With all of the years I've been training I have seen way more crappy cleans than I have crappy squats or bench presses. Hell, even Jason has admitted that he hasn't quite gotten the technique for cleans quite yet and from what I've seen of his programming (at least for my case) doesn't implement the BB oly lifts because of how technical they are. But squats, benches, and deads were used frequently. But I'm sure that's all irrelevant though because he must be a moron for not having me doing oly lifting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I was under the impression that DeFranco was a well respected coach, but I can understand how you getting a degree makes everything coaches who have more experience training athletes than you obsolete. I have read it. I've stated my reasons for believing the cleans are overrated. And posted a well respected coaches own opinions on oly lifts.

    But go ahead and live in your own little fantasy world where everything you post on AM is taken as the God's honest truth because you have a degree and coaches who train real athletes have no real experience because they don't agree with everything the all powerful Rodja has to say.

    I don't deny that you are an intelligent guy, and very well educated on lifting. But don't be so arrogant to think your opinion is the only one that has any merit to it.

    Also, keep in mind I never said they were worthless. I said for MOST gym goers there are better ways to achieve the same (or better) results. With all of the years I've been training I have seen way more crappy cleans than I have crappy squats or bench presses. Hell, even Jason has admitted that he hasn't quite gotten the technique for cleans quite yet and from what I've seen of his programming (at least for my case) doesn't implement the BB oly lifts because of how technical they are. But squats, benches, and deads were used frequently. But I'm sure that's all irrelevant though because he must be a moron for not having me doing oly lifting.
    Wendler is a respected coach and is a huge proponent of cleans; for everyone that is a detractor, you will find a fan. Again, what's your point that DeFranco is a fan? That's his opinion and he has every right to have that. Do I think he's being slightly short sighted with that position? Yes, but that's my opinion. At no point did I even imply that my position is superior to DeFranco's.

    I know for a fact that Zir does Oly lifts as he has posted videos of himself doing them and they're definitely not the kind of thing that you can coach online; you have to be there to cue the lifter and change the technique from rep to rep. Funny how you decided to just turn what was a discussion into a sardonic and personal attack. You had a point going until you decided to go that route and then completely undermined yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    Because DeFranco says so? Ok, buddy...

    but that's an asinine reason to toss them out completely. but that would be a moronic reason to exclude it from a template. DeFranco is not a technician as clearly evidenced by the technique used by many of his athletes and it is dangerous and irresponsible
    These all seem to imply your position is superior to his.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    Wendler is a respected coach and is a huge proponent of cleans; for everyone that is a detractor, you will find a fan. Again, what's your point that DeFranco is a fan? That's his opinion and he has every right to have that. Do I think he's being slightly short sighted with that position? Yes, but that's my opinion. At no point did I even imply that my position is superior to DeFranco's.

    I know for a fact that Zir does Oly lifts as he has posted videos of himself doing them and they're definitely not the kind of thing that you can coach online; you have to be there to cue the lifter and change the technique from rep to rep. Funny how you decided to just turn what was a discussion into a sardonic and personal attack. You had a point going until you decided to go that route and then completely undermined yourself.
    I know he does them (he wouldn't be able to say he doesn't have his form 100% if he didn't do them).

    Interesting that you would call this a discussion. Especially considering you go into almost every thread where someone has a different opinion than you with the attitude that your stance is superior. Doesn't leave a lot of room for "discussion"
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    These all seem to imply your position is superior to his.


    I know he does them (he wouldn't be able to say he doesn't have his form 100% if he didn't do them).

    Interesting that you would call this a discussion. Especially considering you go into almost every thread where someone has a different opinion than you with the attitude that your stance is superior. Doesn't leave a lot of room for "discussion"
    That's your interpretation. I actually applaud DeFranco for not including a lift in which he lacks technical proficiency, but I guess you completely missed that point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    That's your interpretation. I actually applaud DeFranco for not including a lift in which he lacks technical proficiency, but I guess you completely missed that point.
    It is definitely my interpretation. I've never spoken to you in real life, so I can't know how you would sound when discussing this (or any other topic) in person.

    Over the internet, you seem arrogant (sometimes).

    I don't think I missed that point, I think it just wasn't there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    It is definitely my interpretation. I've never spoken to you in real life, so I can't know how you would sound when discussing this (or any other topic) in person.

    Over the internet, you seem arrogant (sometimes).

    I don't think I missed that point, I think it just wasn't there.
    It's there, but you missed it by focusing on turning on the flamethrower.
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    Frontal raise db or bb
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Interesting that you would call this a discussion. Especially considering you go into almost every thread where someone has a different opinion than you with the attitude that your stance is superior. Doesn't leave a lot of room for "discussion"
    How is your position any different? In addition to vehemently arguing against cleans, you're reverting to personal attacks as well. I'd say that's the pinnacle of arrogance.

    Regarding the thread; I agree wholeheartedly that the smith machine is fully overrated for any exercise, but if I have to pick a specific exercise that I see people do, I'm going with flyes. I think flyes are STOOOOPID.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swanson52

    How is your position any different? In addition to vehemently arguing against cleans, you're reverting to personal attacks as well. I'd say that's the pinnacle of arrogance.

    Regarding the thread; I agree wholeheartedly that the smith machine is fully overrated for any exercise, but if I have to pick a specific exercise that I see people do, I'm going with flyes. I think flyes are STOOOOPID.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post

    I was under the impression that DeFranco was a well respected coach, but I can understand how you getting a degree makes everything coaches who have more experience training athletes than you obsolete. I have read it. I've stated my reasons for believing the cleans are overrated. And posted a well respected coaches own opinions on oly lifts.

    But go ahead and live in your own little fantasy world where everything you post on AM is taken as the God's honest truth because you have a degree and coaches who train real athletes have no real experience because they don't agree with everything the all powerful Rodja has to say.

    I don't deny that you are an intelligent guy, and very well educated on lifting. But don't be so arrogant to think your opinion is the only one that has any merit to it.

    Also, keep in mind I never said they were worthless. I said for MOST gym goers there are better ways to achieve the same (or better) results. With all of the years I've been training I have seen way more crappy cleans than I have crappy squats or bench presses. Hell, even Jason has admitted that he hasn't quite gotten the technique for cleans quite yet and from what I've seen of his programming (at least for my case) doesn't implement the BB oly lifts because of how technical they are. But squats, benches, and deads were used frequently. But I'm sure that's all irrelevant though because he must be a moron for not having me doing oly lifting.
    Agreed. I would not call cleans worthless, but they are certainly unnecessary. Deads, squat, bench are all you need, everything else is simply details
  

  
 

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