Overrated movements

[Young Gotti]

So there was a heated discussion between some people at the gym last night. They were discussing movements that were overated. Movements that everyone does but aren't all that good, effective, or just hard to do properly. So I was wondering what everyones opinons are on exercises that may be overated based on the above criteria.

 

[jimbuick]

Cleans.

 

[tigerdb2]

I'll argue for cleans all day, everyday. It's not for everyone but that's because of coordination and technique, not because it isn't effective

 

[pmdied]

I'll argue for cleans all day, everyday. It's not for everyone but that's because of coordination and technique, not because it isn't effective

Thanks, because I like 'em and have gotten quite a bit of trap mass from them.

 

[jimbuick]

I'll argue for cleans all day, everyday. It's not for everyone but that's because of coordination and technique, not because it isn't effective

I didn't say they weren't effective.

Did you read the criteria at all?

 

[pmdied]

Cable tricep extensions. I get nothing out of them.

 

[Celorza]

-Tricep Kick backs of any sort, most people just work calves and rotator cuffs with them...
-BB or DB upright rows , overrated and better rear-delt, trap and scapular activation exercises without the high risk of injury.
-Crunches , should spend more time building the core with other movements rather than just crunches, i.e. Planks (variations) , Oblique work with bands , heavy squats, etc...
-Seated Machine Leg extensions , this is just my opinion but I think it got popular due to the love for it from BBers but I think for mass, and strength development, far better knee extension movements exist i.e. Front Squat, Hack Squat, Lunges, etc...

Hm...just to name a few i guess...

 

[jimbuick]

Anyway, for most people (average gymrats) cleans aren't effective.

There is no eccentric portion (where most muscle damage and growth comes from) and they are very technical, making then hard to learn on your own.

They're great for athletes, when performed properly. But the majority of gym goers will not get a lot from them, and most likely will not be doing them correctly (let alone programming them into a routine correctly)

 

[Celorza]

Anyway, for most people (average gymrats) cleans aren't effective.

There is no eccentric portion (where most muscle damage and growth comes from) and they are very technical, making then hard to learn on your own.

They're great for athletes, when performed properly. But the majority of gym goers will not get a lot from them, and most likely will not be doing them correctly (let alone programming them into a routine correctly)

This reminds me of an old Rodja post I read about Cleans from him. He was schooling someone who claimed they were his Muscle builders on a west-side hybrid power day since they were needed as a power movements. His precise words were a lot like that...that without an eccentric portion it's not really a hypertrophy movement but rather a explosive and CNS involving lift? Something the like if I recall correctly.

Anyhow I agree...are they Overrated? Yes, specially since Crossfitters all around the country do them so poorly and sadly lately and think they will get huge by doing sets of 10+ sad-cleans...(specially when they are highly technical and cns taxing lifts that should be kept in a 2-5? range of reps with proper rest in between to avoid the major risk of injury)

 

[Rodja]

A hang clean is pretty simple to pick up and execute properly. A full power clean, however, is far from it and requires considerable time. However, that itself doesn't make them overrated as a properly executed bench press also takes 1000s of reps to truly get the form as well.

Regarding the eccentric phase, it is the phase that causes the most damage, but it's closer to a 55/45 split and is only a portion of what causes hypertrophy. Frequency and volume are going to be primary factors that elicit hypertrophy more so than cadence, but that's OT.

 

[Bigcountry08]

( For beginners or intermediates) hammer strength equipment and machines. I hate seeing this with noobs in the gym, if you haven't learned proper form on bench press you have no place on a hammer strength bench.

Swiss ball anything, balancing exercises are dangerous and any benefit you get from them is way to small compared to the injuries you can receive by doing them.

Smith machine, same as hammer strength except in my opinion it also adds way to much stress on the joints because your body can't adjust like a free weight bar, your body is going where the weight is telling you.

Kettle bells..... Because there are dumbbells

 

[jimbuick]

This reminds me of an old Rodja post I read about Cleans from him. He was schooling someone who claimed they were his Muscle builders on a west-side hybrid power day since they were needed as a power movements. His precise words were a lot like that...that without an eccentric portion it's not really a hypertrophy movement but rather a explosive and CNS involving lift? Something the like if I recall correctly.

Anyhow I agree...are they Overrated? Yes, specially since Crossfitters all around the country do them so poorly and sadly lately and think they will get huge by doing sets of 10+ sad-cleans...(specially when they are highly technical and cns taxing lifts that should be kept in a 2-5? range of reps with proper rest in between to avoid the major risk of injury)

I can't say I've seen it. Although, it would surprise me that he would say that.

I couldn't definitively say about rep ranges, I just recently started studying programming for the Olympic lifts (more specifically Olympic lifters).

A hang clean is pretty simple to pick up and execute properly. A full power clean, however, is far from it and requires considerable time. However, that itself doesn't make them overrated as a properly executed bench press also takes 1000s of reps to truly get the form as well.

Regarding the eccentric phase, it is the phase that causes the most damage, but it's closer to a 55/45 split and is only a portion of what causes hypertrophy. Frequency and volume are going to be primary factors that elicit hypertrophy more so than cadence, but that's OT.

I can agree that a hang clean is easier to learn, but I don't agree that it is easy. I see people every single day that do terrible hang cleans/power cleans/snatches/etc.
I still think for the average gym goer any clean is overrated. There are more effective and less technical ways to achieve the same result (specifically for hypertrophy, strength, and power).

I was generalizing. It is more complex than just eccentric causing hypertrophy, but there are still better ways to build muscle.

 

[jimbuick]

( For beginners or intermediates) hammer strength equipment and machines. I hate seeing this with noobs in the gym, if you haven't learned proper form on bench press you have no place on a hammer strength bench.

Swiss ball anything, balancing exercises are dangerous and any benefit you get from them is way to small compared to the injuries you can receive by doing them.

Smith machine, same as hammer strength except in my opinion it also adds way to much stress on the joints because your body can't adjust like a free weight bar, your body is going where the weight is telling you.

Kettle bells..... Because there are dumbbells

You think kettlebells are overrated lol?

I think KBs are awesome.

 

[Young Gotti]

kettlebells are ok but primal bells are awesome!

 

[Rodja]

I can't say I've seen it. Although, it would surprise me that he would say that.

I couldn't definitively say about rep ranges, I just recently started studying programming for the Olympic lifts (more specifically Olympic lifters).


I can agree that a hang clean is easier to learn, but I don't agree that it is easy. I see people every single day that do terrible hang cleans/power cleans/snatches/etc.
I still think for the average gym goer any clean is overrated. There are more effective and less technical ways to achieve the same result (specifically for hypertrophy, strength, and power).

I was generalizing. It is more complex than just eccentric causing hypertrophy, but there are still better ways to build muscle.

Nearly every compound lift is technical and difficult to learn to perform properly. A squat is extremely technical, but that is not a reason to neglect it.

 

[jimbuick]

Nearly every compound lift is technical and difficult to learn to perform properly. A squat is extremely technical, but that is not a reason to neglect it.

Would you really say that a clean is as effective for hypertrophy/strength gains as a full squat?

Risk vs reward. They are both technical compound lifts, but the reward greatly outweighs the risk in the squat. I don't believe it does for a clean.

 

[Rodja]

Would you really say that a clean is as effective for hypertrophy/strength gains as a full squat?

Risk vs reward. They are both technical compound lifts, but the reward greatly outweighs the risk in the squat. I don't believe it does for a clean.

You're deviating from the point and anything with considerable gain comes with considerable risk and ****ty technique will always cause problems. Again, most people don't squat, bench, or pull correctly because they haven't taken the time to truly understand the lifts and realize that they're each full-body movements. Even small things lift footwear are neglected when it comes to learning these lifts as different lifts use different shoes.

 

[jimbuick]

You're deviating from the point and anything with considerable gain comes with considerable risk and ****ty technique will always cause problems. Again, most people don't squat, bench, or pull correctly because they haven't taken the time to truly understand the lifts and realize that they're each full-body movements. Even small things lift footwear are neglected when it comes to learning these lifts as different lifts use different shoes.

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe-test/41-strength-training/180-hang-cleans-vs-weighted-jumps-for-explosive-hip-extension.html

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_04-10-10.htm#question02

 

[Rodja]

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe-test/41-strength-training/180-hang-cleans-vs-weighted-jumps-for-explosive-hip-extension.html

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_04-10-10.htm#question02

And your point is?

 

[jimbuick]

And your point is?

What my point has been this entire time.

There are better alternatives for hypertrophy/strength/power/athleticism than the Olympic llifts.

 

[xigotmailx]

Overrated lift in my opinion is dumbbell front raises. Front delts get enough work

 

[tigerdb2]

I didn't say they weren't effective.

Did you read the criteria at all?

"So there was a heated discussion between some people at the gym last night. They were discussing movements that were overated. Movements that everyone does but aren't all that good, effective, or just hard to do properly. So I was wondering what everyones opinons are on exercises that may be overated based on the above criteria."


I did, indeed, read the criteria. It's just my opinion that they are not overrated. Are they appropriate for all training goals? No and you clearly understand that. I do think you can make a fair argument based on, if nothing else, empirical evidence that they can be effective for hypertrophy, however. The upper back and posterior chain of people who regularly perform olympic lifts is extremely well developed even if you attribute a lot of the overall leg development to the high volume of squatting they perform. Is it best suited for hypertrophy? Not in my opinion, but i still consider it a valuable tool

We just disagree which may be more common discussing oly lifting than anything in this game so it's not unexpected

 

[PaulBlack]

They were discussing movements that were overated. Movements that everyone does but aren't all that good, effective, or just hard to do properly.

It is going to depend on your goals but, in general, if it is something, as you say, everyone does!? I have to agree with curls. Absolutely everyone does them and in fact it is the first thing a person does when they grab a light DB. Personally, you can get really good bicep strength & development from chins, rows, pullups, etc etc. I rarely if ever curl anymore. Years ago I would have called you crazy saying curls.
I can't say exercises like kickbacks are OVER rated, because I don't even think they should be rated at all HAHAHAHA so there, from what my goals are anyway.

Cleans are a great exercise and if you are an oly lifter, they are one of the 2 lifts, so how could they ever be considered over rated!?

That all said, I was gonna put in the Turkish Get Up, but no, "kneeling squats"...! Doesn't everybody do em???????? Har har

I even think WSB abandoned those.

 

[Young Gotti]

It is going to depend on your goals but, in general, if it is something, as you say, everyone does!? I have to agree with curls. Absolutely everyone does them and in fact it is the first thing a person does when they grab a light DB. Personally, you can get really good bicep strength & development from chins, rows, pullups, etc etc. I rarely if ever curl anymore. Years ago I would have called you crazy saying curls.
I can't say exercises like kickbacks are OVER rated, because I don't even think they should be rated at all HAHAHAHA so there, from what my goals are anyway.

Cleans are a great exercise and if you are an oly lifter, they are one of the 2 lifts, so how could they ever be considered over rated!?

That all said, I was gonna put in the Turkish Get Up, but no, "kneeling squats"...! Doesn't everybody do em???????? Har har

I even think WSB abandoned those.

Yeah not many people at my gym anyway do oly type lifts

The main arguements were over Barbell bench press, pull ups, front shoulder raises, barbell shoulder press, leg presses and movements like these

 

[PaulBlack]

front shoulder raises,

Then agree ^. Although I should not even comment on a lift I have done maybe 3 times in my entire life.
Compound lifts utilizing the most body mass first and foremost.

 

[ITW]

Any exercise that doesnt help you accomplish your goals is "overrated". Gotta look at bang for your buck and cost vs benefit when selecting lifts/loading parameters/rest between sets/ect...and now does the lift you selected (and other specifics listed previously) interfere with other lifts...what about order...what about progression...the process goes on and on. See, this is why proper programming is so damn important for the lifter who wants long term gains and injury prevention. Idk just my .02

 

[napalm]

Anything with 'smith machine' in front of it?

Begin flaming in
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GO...

 

[vidapreta]

Anything with 'smith machine' in front of it?

Begin flaming in
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GO...

What about smith machine lunges? ?

 

[ITW]

Anything with 'smith machine' in front of it?

Begin flaming in
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GO...

Rack chins in a smith ain't so bad haha

 

[Rodja]

What my point has been this entire time.

There are better alternatives for hypertrophy/strength/power/athleticism than the Olympic llifts.

Because DeFranco says so? Ok, buddy...

If you would actually read his explanation that isn't conjugate driven, it's because they take a lot of time to perfect, which is very true, but that's an asinine reason to toss them out completely. It takes years to perfect a bench press, too, but that would be a moronic reason to exclude it from a template. DeFranco is not a technician as clearly evidenced by the technique used by many of his athletes and it is dangerous and irresponsible (one of my major beefs with CrossFit) to implement something in which the coach is not proficient.

 

[jimbuick]

Because DeFranco says so? Ok, buddy...

If you would actually read his explanation that isn't conjugate driven, it's because they take a lot of time to perfect, which is very true, but that's an asinine reason to toss them out completely. It takes years to perfect a bench press, too, but that would be a moronic reason to exclude it from a template. DeFranco is not a technician as clearly evidenced by the technique used by many of his athletes and it is dangerous and irresponsible (one of my major beefs with CrossFit) to implement something in which the coach is not proficient.

I was under the impression that DeFranco was a well respected coach, but I can understand how you getting a degree makes everything coaches who have more experience training athletes than you obsolete. I have read it. I've stated my reasons for believing the cleans are overrated. And posted a well respected coaches own opinions on oly lifts.

But go ahead and live in your own little fantasy world where everything you post on AM is taken as the God's honest truth because you have a degree and coaches who train real athletes have no real experience because they don't agree with everything the all powerful Rodja has to say.

I don't deny that you are an intelligent guy, and very well educated on lifting. But don't be so arrogant to think your opinion is the only one that has any merit to it.

Also, keep in mind I never said they were worthless. I said for MOST gym goers there are better ways to achieve the same (or better) results. With all of the years I've been training I have seen way more crappy cleans than I have crappy squats or bench presses. Hell, even Jason has admitted that he hasn't quite gotten the technique for cleans quite yet and from what I've seen of his programming (at least for my case) doesn't implement the BB oly lifts because of how technical they are. But squats, benches, and deads were used frequently. But I'm sure that's all irrelevant though because he must be a moron for not having me doing oly lifting.

 

[Rodja]

I was under the impression that DeFranco was a well respected coach, but I can understand how you getting a degree makes everything coaches who have more experience training athletes than you obsolete. I have read it. I've stated my reasons for believing the cleans are overrated. And posted a well respected coaches own opinions on oly lifts.

But go ahead and live in your own little fantasy world where everything you post on AM is taken as the God's honest truth because you have a degree and coaches who train real athletes have no real experience because they don't agree with everything the all powerful Rodja has to say.

I don't deny that you are an intelligent guy, and very well educated on lifting. But don't be so arrogant to think your opinion is the only one that has any merit to it.

Also, keep in mind I never said they were worthless. I said for MOST gym goers there are better ways to achieve the same (or better) results. With all of the years I've been training I have seen way more crappy cleans than I have crappy squats or bench presses. Hell, even Jason has admitted that he hasn't quite gotten the technique for cleans quite yet and from what I've seen of his programming (at least for my case) doesn't implement the BB oly lifts because of how technical they are. But squats, benches, and deads were used frequently. But I'm sure that's all irrelevant though because he must be a moron for not having me doing oly lifting.

Wendler is a respected coach and is a huge proponent of cleans; for everyone that is a detractor, you will find a fan. Again, what's your point that DeFranco is a fan? That's his opinion and he has every right to have that. Do I think he's being slightly short sighted with that position? Yes, but that's my opinion. At no point did I even imply that my position is superior to DeFranco's.

I know for a fact that Zir does Oly lifts as he has posted videos of himself doing them and they're definitely not the kind of thing that you can coach online; you have to be there to cue the lifter and change the technique from rep to rep. Funny how you decided to just turn what was a discussion into a sardonic and personal attack. You had a point going until you decided to go that route and then completely undermined yourself.

 

[jimbuick]

Because DeFranco says so? Ok, buddy...

but that's an asinine reason to toss them out completely. but that would be a moronic reason to exclude it from a template. DeFranco is not a technician as clearly evidenced by the technique used by many of his athletes and it is dangerous and irresponsible

These all seem to imply your position is superior to his.

Wendler is a respected coach and is a huge proponent of cleans; for everyone that is a detractor, you will find a fan. Again, what's your point that DeFranco is a fan? That's his opinion and he has every right to have that. Do I think he's being slightly short sighted with that position? Yes, but that's my opinion. At no point did I even imply that my position is superior to DeFranco's.

I know for a fact that Zir does Oly lifts as he has posted videos of himself doing them and they're definitely not the kind of thing that you can coach online; you have to be there to cue the lifter and change the technique from rep to rep. Funny how you decided to just turn what was a discussion into a sardonic and personal attack. You had a point going until you decided to go that route and then completely undermined yourself.

I know he does them (he wouldn't be able to say he doesn't have his form 100% if he didn't do them).

Interesting that you would call this a discussion. Especially considering you go into almost every thread where someone has a different opinion than you with the attitude that your stance is superior. Doesn't leave a lot of room for "discussion"

 

[Rodja]

These all seem to imply your position is superior to his.


I know he does them (he wouldn't be able to say he doesn't have his form 100% if he didn't do them).

Interesting that you would call this a discussion. Especially considering you go into almost every thread where someone has a different opinion than you with the attitude that your stance is superior. Doesn't leave a lot of room for "discussion"

That's your interpretation. I actually applaud DeFranco for not including a lift in which he lacks technical proficiency, but I guess you completely missed that point.

 

[jimbuick]

That's your interpretation. I actually applaud DeFranco for not including a lift in which he lacks technical proficiency, but I guess you completely missed that point.

It is definitely my interpretation. I've never spoken to you in real life, so I can't know how you would sound when discussing this (or any other topic) in person.

Over the internet, you seem arrogant (sometimes).

I don't think I missed that point, I think it just wasn't there.

 

[Rodja]

It is definitely my interpretation. I've never spoken to you in real life, so I can't know how you would sound when discussing this (or any other topic) in person.

Over the internet, you seem arrogant (sometimes).

I don't think I missed that point, I think it just wasn't there.

It's there, but you missed it by focusing on turning on the flamethrower.

 

[Tomahawk88]

Frontal raise db or bb

 

[Swanson52]

Interesting that you would call this a discussion. Especially considering you go into almost every thread where someone has a different opinion than you with the attitude that your stance is superior. Doesn't leave a lot of room for "discussion"

How is your position any different? In addition to vehemently arguing against cleans, you're reverting to personal attacks as well. I'd say that's the pinnacle of arrogance.

Regarding the thread; I agree wholeheartedly that the smith machine is fully overrated for any exercise, but if I have to pick a specific exercise that I see people do, I'm going with flyes. I think flyes are STOOOOPID.

 

[Tomahawk88]

How is your position any different? In addition to vehemently arguing against cleans, you're reverting to personal attacks as well. I'd say that's the pinnacle of arrogance.

Regarding the thread; I agree wholeheartedly that the smith machine is fully overrated for any exercise, but if I have to pick a specific exercise that I see people do, I'm going with flyes. I think flyes are STOOOOPID.

Yes cable crossovers for "toning"

 

[rockme]

I was under the impression that DeFranco was a well respected coach, but I can understand how you getting a degree makes everything coaches who have more experience training athletes than you obsolete. I have read it. I've stated my reasons for believing the cleans are overrated. And posted a well respected coaches own opinions on oly lifts.

But go ahead and live in your own little fantasy world where everything you post on AM is taken as the God's honest truth because you have a degree and coaches who train real athletes have no real experience because they don't agree with everything the all powerful Rodja has to say.

I don't deny that you are an intelligent guy, and very well educated on lifting. But don't be so arrogant to think your opinion is the only one that has any merit to it.

Also, keep in mind I never said they were worthless. I said for MOST gym goers there are better ways to achieve the same (or better) results. With all of the years I've been training I have seen way more crappy cleans than I have crappy squats or bench presses. Hell, even Jason has admitted that he hasn't quite gotten the technique for cleans quite yet and from what I've seen of his programming (at least for my case) doesn't implement the BB oly lifts because of how technical they are. But squats, benches, and deads were used frequently. But I'm sure that's all irrelevant though because he must be a moron for not having me doing oly lifting.

Agreed. I would not call cleans worthless, but they are certainly unnecessary. Deads, squat, bench are all you need, everything else is simply details

 

[Young Gotti]

Agreed. I would not call cleans worthless, but they are certainly unnecessary. Deads, squat, bench are all you need, everything else is simply details

EHH, I tend to disagree, I think a barbell bench press has no place in the bodybuilding world

Best For Overall Chest Mass: Dumbbell Bench PressRecent research from Las Vegas based StrengthPro Inc., headed by David Sandler, MS, CSCS, showed that the dumbbell bench press involves the front delts far less than the barbell bench press, since the arms come out to the sides more with dumbbells. Less delt involvement means more pec stimulation, which is exactly what you want for maximal chest development

 

[rob112]

Crunches!

The only good crunch is pb cap n crunch.

 

[jimbuick]

How is your position any different? In addition to vehemently arguing against cleans, you're reverting to personal attacks as well. I'd say that's the pinnacle of arrogance.

I agree.

Which is why I let it go. I was doing exactly what I was speaking against.

I've nothing more to say in relation to it, I've expressed my opinion and given my reasons for it. I should've just left it at that.

 

[rockme]

What about good old fashion jogging/running? Do we really think it's bad on the knees? I would much rather squat than jog for leg development, but I notice when I include running in my regimen I have much better looking calves and quads. I weigh 190 at the moment, and the running is getting more and more difficult (weighed 165 back in Nov). I want to exercise caution with my joints, but I figure the folks who claim running is bad for the knees are the same morons who say squats are bad on the knees!

 

[rockme]

EHH, I tend to disagree, I think a barbell bench press has no place in the bodybuilding world

Best For Overall Chest Mass: Dumbbell Bench PressRecent research from Las Vegas based StrengthPro Inc., headed by David Sandler, MS, CSCS, showed that the dumbbell bench press involves the front delts far less than the barbell bench press, since the arms come out to the sides more with dumbbells. Less delt involvement means more pec stimulation, which is exactly what you want for maximal chest development

DB bench is great. I used it as my power movement when I did PHAT. I can definitely "feel" the DB bench more than the BB, much in the same way I can feel the lat pulldown more in my back than a deadlift. But, the BB bench has always given me more gains in mass and strength than the DB, and the deads have always made me a bigger/stronger back than a lat pulldown. But yeah, a DB bench will use far less front delt than a BB bench. I certainly would not need a scientific study to convince me on that. That being said, I disagree that the DB bench would give me better chest development

 

[Young Gotti]

DB bench is great. I used it as my power movement when I did PHAT. I can definitely "feel" the DB bench more than the BB, much in the same way I can feel the lat pulldown more in my back than a deadlift. But, the BB bench has always given me more gains in mass and strength than the DB, and the deads have always made me a bigger/stronger back than a lat pulldown. But yeah, a DB bench will use far less front delt than a BB bench. I certainly would not need a scientific study to convince me on that. That being said, I disagree that the DB bench would give me better chest development

oh not for me, i get the whole strength thing because a barbell is easier to guage, but i prefer DB for shape and size of the muscle over bb, i also prefer DB motion over the BB, i feel the BB is limited in the movement, with a DB your getting better muscle contraction and get the most out of the time your spending doing the exercise

 

[Jiigzz]

I agree.

Which is why I let it go. I was doing exactly what I was speaking against.

I've nothing more to say in relation to it, I've expressed my opinion and given my reasons for it. I should've just left it at that.

Well said.

FWIW I agree on your position on cleans.

 

[PalmFist]

Any hanging movement whatsoever ...

Smith anything...

And most accessory work...

I want to comment on Broz's training approach to the compound movements. He will assign broomstick training for up to 3 months until the technical aspect is second nature. Good shyt right there!

Also, for the record, I feel more stress on my pectoral girdle with DB chest press than BB press...

 

[Torobestia]

I'd like to echo jim's suggestion of cleans. Largely non-essential movement for the average joe that seems to be abused and overused by the gym populace at large.

I actually have a hard time thinking of anything else since I've been at a private gym where most people know what they're doing, or they're being coached by someone that knows more or less what they're doing. So I've forgotten a lot of what I used to see at other gyms.

I think upright rows and front raises would be exercises that come to mind as well.

 

[OnionKnight]

i love watching people do cleans at my gym. i always bounce my view off like 5 mirrors hoping he gets hurt. im fuked up i know, but cmon.. theyre cleans. unlessyoure getting coached on form, do any benefits really outweigh the risks of attempting cleans without the proper training?