Crossfit injury rate

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. But I know for everyone who has played college ball they've been injured at least once in the weight room, whether it's serious, or just a small pull, to re-occurring back pain. It's happened, besides we have a knack of not reporting injuries and continuing to play with them.

    What I'm trying to say is that when you spend as much time (10 years at least) playing a sport that demands constant strength training and conditioning in a physically demanding environment on the field, injuries are inevitable, both in the weight room and on the field. It's just a part of the sport and anyone who's played at this level or higher will tell you. Just because an injury isn't reported doesn't mean it never happened, and in football injury is the kiss of death so we do all we can to hide it if it does occur.

    Just my experience.
    Of course injuries do occur, that is the nature of the sport in which we engage but does that mean they were all bought upon by the training program? Perhaps there was a transfer in a on-field injury to the gym environment, or perhaps someone was simply straying from what is considered ideal form. Everyone does it, often to get that extra rep or so , but in saying that, you have gone off on some random tangent.

    Rodja had a good blog on CrossFit that addressed some really good issues; I tried linking to it but it has been moved. In any case, metabolic stress =/= a good workout or even a productive workout, and often the two are confused together. A good program is highly individualised, has good monitoring + progression schemes, the S&C coaches are adequetly trained in injury + identifying weak links and allow for multi-planal exercises.

    Injuries are common in the sporting world, yes. But that is not the point of the discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    Where you begin to see problems is in beginners who have no prior PL and OLY experience thrown into the frying pan with no proper training or a pot to piss in.
    unfortunately this is the exact reason crossfit is stupid. its targeted at the nonlifters that have zero lifting experiene because its currently a fitness fad. no insult to the serious crossfitters because they take it serious and do it right. but cmon, these last couple years of new years resolutionists joined crossfit gyms more than chain gyms because it looks more fun.

    that and the easy certification. its actually harder to get certified as a personal trainer by one of the big 3 organizations. thats pathetic, we dont even teach olympic lifts lol

    idk how many times ive heard some fat bich in my classes talking about how they joined crossfit last month and how awsome it is. theyll quit in a couple weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Of course injuries do occur, that is the nature of the sport in which we engage but does that mean they were all bought upon by the training program? Perhaps there was a transfer in a on-field injury to the gym environment, or perhaps someone was simply straying from what is considered ideal form. Everyone does it, often to get that extra rep or so , but in saying that, you have gone off on some random tangent.

    Rodja had a good blog on CrossFit that addressed some really good issues; I tried linking to it but it has been moved. In any case, metabolic stress =/= a good workout or even a productive workout, and often the two are confused together. A good program is highly individualised, has good monitoring + progression schemes, the S&C coaches are adequetly trained in injury + identifying weak links and allow for multi-planal exercises.

    Injuries are common in the sporting world, yes. But that is not the point of the discussion.
    Exactly... How can people talk **** about crossfit when there's no direct correlation between the injuries and the actual program. For someone who has years of technical lift experience the program works well. If anything, knock crossfit for marketing towards the wrong kinds of people; but don't knock the ****ing programming because if you have solid S&C experience you can make great gains.

    Had you read my previous posts you would see the point, that being that saying that the idea of crossfit (essentially it's own sport now) is unproductive and irresponsible (according to some...) due to injuries is like saying the idea of football S&C and other contact sports that have high incidences of injuries in the weight room (no matter the reason) are unproductive and irresponsible.

    If people are going to knock crossfit because people get hurt then they might as well knock every other sport that has similar incidences of injury in the weight room. Was that hard to understand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnionKnight View Post
    unfortunately this is the exact reason crossfit is stupid. its targeted at the nonlifters that have zero lifting experiene because its currently a fitness fad. no insult to the serious crossfitters because they take it serious and do it right. but cmon, these last couple years of new years resolutionists joined crossfit gyms more than chain gyms because it looks more fun.

    that and the easy certification. its actually harder to get certified as a personal trainer by one of the big 3 organizations. thats pathetic, we dont even teach olympic lifts lol

    idk how many times ive heard some fat bich in my classes talking about how they joined crossfit last month and how awsome it is. theyll quit in a couple weeks.
    Again knock the marketing and corporate bull**** but don't knock the ****ing program. So people get hurt... big deal... but the program still works if you know what you're doing. I do, so I will take advantage of it and remain injury free because of that. As far as the other people who do get hurt doing corssfit, that sucks, and they should have been more informed as to what they're signing up for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    i was reading your response and was thinking, ok, he has a belief. cool. he is using examples that dont apply, but whatever that is common in debates. then i got to that part, LOL! i was like great, another fan boy. well that means im done as logic has no place in a discussion with you.

    here is a fact:
    [insert inaccurate study here]
    from that we can see the highest injury rate of the sports looked at was football. which was 35.9 out of every 1,000 players. thats a huge 3.59% of players. crossfit was 20% which is 5.57 times higher injury rate than a sport that is all about impact. i love facts.

    the great thing about science is it does not need your belief to exist as fact. and seeing as how its belief vs fact here there is nothing more to say. something learned in my times a sales person, you cannot change anyones mind. you can only give them new information and allow them to make a new decision.
    The great thing about experience is that you have none in neither football or crossfit... The injury rate for football is 100% for those who have made it to college and beyond. Ask around... you don't need a study to tell you that.

    So you going to tell me how to wrong-arm a tight end now? I bet there are some studies on that you could pull up and teach me how to do it. Also while you're at it why don't you tell me how I should pass block as a right guard in a 4 man front, stack package, with a blitzing mike and sam. See my point now... experience, you have none, and no study you could ever find will tell you the answer to those two questions, unless you've been in the shoes of a player.

    BTW not every injury is reported that occurs, especially in football. So there is a great degree of uncertainty and error in your study. Not to mention most scientific studies carry a very high degree of bias. Also your study doesn't account for the players' entire career... but that's another argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    The great thing about experience is that you have none in neither football or crossfit.
    thanks for proving my point in my last post. fact vs belief. i have facts, oops.

    and who says i dont have experience in either? thats a bold [and false] accusation and is common from those on the loosing end of a debate. and what does the injury rate of crossfit have to do with my experience of football or crossfit? or with the facts i mentioned either?

    by definition a fact is, as shown on dictionary.com:
    1.something that actually exists; reality; truth.

    2.something known to exist or to have happened.

    3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true.

    4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened:

    belief, as shown on dictionary.com:
    1.something believed; an opinion or conviction.

    2.confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof.

    3.confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.

    4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith.

    you accused me of having no experience of football or crossfit. you make that statement in an attempt of being fact. how did you prove that information? if its not a fact, its false, or a belief which does go along with other beliefs you have so i can understand that.

    also, did you miss the part where i talked about the merits of crossfit? how it can help people? or did you do exactly what, in the same post, i said was likely going to happen. that someone would take what i said in a small part of the post out of context, which you did [accusation]. so if you are disagreeing with me does that mean you believe that crossfit has no merit? cause i do believe it has a purpose. i also believe it has many shortcomings as most fads do. i can say one of its major strengths is a great marketing department.

    i also believe you have a strong conviction to crossfit and no one, even with the truth, will change your mind. to a degree i find that commendable. beliefs and hope are a great thing and more people need that kind of conviction. now i do relate this to a fanboy level like apple products or zealots like in religions. their fanaticism ignores many facts and that is the great thing about facts, it does not require your belief to be the truth. i just hope you realize someday that there are many things wrong with crossfit and push more towards fixing it then blindly following it (yes i used your incorrect attempt of a phrase against you). and i hope others reading this post see the pros and cons of crossfit as based upon fact and not blind faith.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Of course injuries do occur, that is the nature of the sport in which we engage but does that mean they were all bought upon by the training program? Perhaps there was a transfer in a on-field injury to the gym environment, or perhaps someone was simply straying from what is considered ideal form. Everyone does it, often to get that extra rep or so , but in saying that, you have gone off on some random tangent.

    Rodja had a good blog on CrossFit that addressed some really good issues; I tried linking to it but it has been moved. In any case, metabolic stress =/= a good workout or even a productive workout, and often the two are confused together. A good program is highly individualised, has good monitoring + progression schemes, the S&C coaches are adequetly trained in injury + identifying weak links and allow for multi-planal exercises.

    Injuries are common in the sporting world, yes. But that is not the point of the discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    Exactly... How can people talk **** about crossfit when there's no direct correlation between the injuries and the actual program. For someone who has years of technical lift experience the program works well. If anything, knock crossfit for marketing towards the wrong kinds of people; but don't knock the ****ing programming because if you have solid S&C experience you can make great gains.

    Had you read my previous posts you would see the point, that being that saying that the idea of crossfit (essentially it's own sport now) is unproductive and irresponsible (according to some...) due to injuries is like saying the idea of football S&C and other contact sports that have high incidences of injuries in the weight room (no matter the reason) are unproductive and irresponsible.

    If people are going to knock crossfit because people get hurt then they might as well knock every other sport that has similar incidences of injury in the weight room. Was that hard to understand?
    Name another sport that has nearly a 20% injury rate (to where time has to be missed) from just the S&C aspect? It doesn't exist because that would mean that both the S&C coach is a moron and that the program is awful. I have had ONE injury in over 12 years of training and none in the past 9 years including 5 years of MMA and 3 years of powerlifting. This is due to training intelligently, taking the necessary time to learn the PROPER technique, and my programming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    Exactly... How can people talk **** about crossfit when there's no direct correlation between the injuries and the actual program.
    no direct correlation? there are abundant facts about the direct correlation to injury and the program. and uhm even crossfit embraces the injuries it can entail as shown my its mascot. it seems its all about Rhabdo! and to define that:
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/000473.htm
    Rhabdomyolysis is the breakdown of muscle fibers that leads to the release of muscle fiber contents (myoglobin) into the bloodstream. Myoglobin is harmful to the kidney and often causes kidney damage.

    rhabdo is NOT a good thing. it is bad. that is a fact. if you want to argue that then it would seem that you think its a good thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    For someone who has years of technical lift experience the program works well. If anything, knock crossfit for marketing towards the wrong kinds of people; but don't knock the ****ing programming because if you have solid S&C experience you can make great gains.
    do you think that, maybe, you are the exception to the rule when it comes to technical proficiency? it takes years to get to that point. how does crossfit deal with teaching the technique. my experience and it seems most others from reading articles about it, you throw the WOD at the person and make them do the same weights as everyone else in the world and then time them and have everyone around them cheering them on. that sounds like a recipe for disaster [belief].

    you may never get injured from it and that is awesome. good for you. now for the other 99.99999% of the world that does crossfit, are they conditioned with years of practice? are they technically advanced with years of practice? i can answer an honest NO to both. that is the problem. you are doing the same WOD as a couch potato.


    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    If people are going to knock crossfit because people get hurt then they might as well knock every other sport that has similar incidences of injury in the weight room. Was that hard to understand?
    can you name a sport that has the same injury rate? i posted the info already btw.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    We have a few crossfit/functional trainers at my gym and they crack me up. They use the same training routine with each client, right down to reps, pace, resistance etc regardless of their clients age, gender or fitness level. Week after week....same damn thing for every victim that walks in the door.
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    As someone that has experience in playing football. More kids got injured in the weightroom doing some dumb workout a coach told them or they saw on the Internet( like crossfit) than they did on the field. The ones that get injured om the field were normally the ones that did the stupid workout
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    Quote Originally Posted by SXIPro View Post
    We have a few crossfit/functional trainers at my gym and they crack me up. They use the same training routine with each client, right down to reps, pace, resistance etc regardless of their clients age, gender or fitness level. Week after week....same damn thing for every victim that walks in the door.
    Those are just examples of ****ty trainers, which happens a whole ton with traditional trainers as well! I don't know where the whole "everyone has to do the same thing" garbage came from, but most CF gyms DO NOT do that!! I have traveled a lot and been to a lot of good CF gyms that pay very close attention to an individuals skill strength and form. Although I am not a fan of high rep Oly lifts, I haven't run across and CF trainers that will let anyone use anything more than they can handle. Plus, if they are just learning the for, it's bar only, or even just a PVC to help them learn without getting hurt.
    The biggest problem people I see on these forums is the generalizations that people make just because they don't like something, or they searched for some fail videos on you tube.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrivest View Post
    Those are just examples of ****ty trainers, which happens a whole ton with traditional trainers as well! I don't know where the whole "everyone has to do the same thing" garbage came from, but most CF gyms DO NOT do that!! I have traveled a lot and been to a lot of good CF gyms that pay very close attention to an individuals skill strength and form. Although I am not a fan of high rep Oly lifts, I haven't run across and CF trainers that will let anyone use anything more than they can handle. Plus, if they are just learning the for, it's bar only, or even just a PVC to help them learn without getting hurt.
    The biggest problem people I see on these forums is the generalizations that people make just because they don't like something, or they searched for some fail videos on you tube.
    I completely understand and agree. There are some really good crossfit facilities in my area. Problem is they charge $150 a month. My gym is $20 a month and the crossfit is an additional $80. Maybe you get what you pay for.

    But yeah, there are lousy trainers everywhere. I was a personal trainer back in the late 80's and I spent half my time undoing what other trainers at my own club had done to people as far as showing proper form, setting up a routine that actually related to the client's fitness goals etc etc.

    Nothing pissed me off more than having a new customer come in who desperately needed help and proper attention to put them on the right track and keep them motivated, but some fly by night trainer would spend 10 minutes with them and then they were on thier own,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrivest View Post
    Those are just examples of ****ty trainers, which happens a whole ton with traditional trainers as well! I don't know where the whole "everyone has to do the same thing" garbage came from, but most CF gyms DO NOT do that!! I have traveled a lot and been to a lot of good CF gyms that pay very close attention to an individuals skill strength and form. Although I am not a fan of high rep Oly lifts, I haven't run across and CF trainers that will let anyone use anything more than they can handle. Plus, if they are just learning the for, it's bar only, or even just a PVC to help them learn without getting hurt.
    The biggest problem people I see on these forums is the generalizations that people make just because they don't like something, or they searched for some fail videos on you tube.
    It's the CrossFit programthat's flawed. The trainers reinforce the program. Ergo even with a good trainer, the results will invariably be the same (to an extent). Lots of average gym-trainers follow generic plans or develop their own which may also be flawed. Which it is always best to follow programs that aren't unless developed specifically for you by someone with enough knowledge to make a plan.

    I get my clients to follow 5/3/1. Its simple, easy and well programmed. I then tailor the accessory exercises based on what needs correcting. Because i'm still myself learning, all my recommendations are overseen by a S&C professional before being given the green light.
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    no direct correlation? there are abundant facts about the direct correlation to injury and the program. and uhm even crossfit embraces the injuries it can entail as shown my its mascot. it seems its all about Rhabdo! and to define that:

    Rhabdomyolysis is the breakdown of muscle fibers that leads to the release of muscle fiber contents (myoglobin) into the bloodstream. Myoglobin is harmful to the kidney and often causes kidney damage.

    rhabdo is NOT a good thing. it is bad. that is a fact. if you want to argue that then it would seem that you think its a good thing.



    do you think that, maybe, you are the exception to the rule when it comes to technical proficiency? it takes years to get to that point. how does crossfit deal with teaching the technique. my experience and it seems most others from reading articles about it, you throw the WOD at the person and make them do the same weights as everyone else in the world and then time them and have everyone around them cheering them on. that sounds like a recipe for disaster [belief].

    you may never get injured from it and that is awesome. good for you. now for the other 99.99999% of the world that does crossfit, are they conditioned with years of practice? are they technically advanced with years of practice? i can answer an honest NO to both. that is the problem. you are doing the same WOD as a couch potato.




    can you name a sport that has the same injury rate? i posted the info already btw.
    1st quote: Crossfit is based off of periodization methods... hell, Mark Rippetoe helped design the strength portion of the programming you see in crossfit. All crossfit chapters consist of two workouts, in case you didn't know, one is a form a periodization based off skill level (SWOD) and the other the conditioning part (DWOD). So by saying that the actual strength programming at minimal reps causes injury is ludicrous, it's the people not the program, plain and simple. Rhabdo only occurs in those who don't know how to recover properly and ignore the signs of overtraining, again, the persons fault not the program.

    2nd quote: You are exactly right, I agree that 20 reps of 135 lb. power snatches are dangerous to a novice/intermediate, but then again the person should be aware of what they're signing up for. That's not the programs fault, that's the fault of the business end of the program and coaches (not properly trained) who do not properly inform participants of the program and it's requirements; that they need to be proficient in the lifts before they go anywhere over 5 reps in ANY technical movement. The coaches should be taught how to assess their clients accordingly and make sure that their clients are fully aware of the dangers they could potentially face.

    3rd quote: Football, whether reported or not, everyone who has actually played has had an injury over the course of their career at the college level and higher, after 10 years of beating your body day in and day out. Especially concussions, which often times go unreported due to the fact that they are easy to hide and hard to detect. The study has a very high degree of uncertainty and a very high percent of error because most times minor injuries in the sport go unnoticed and unreported, we just put an ace wrap around it, RICE it, and hit the field. Your study only accounts for instances that were reported and only a small percentage of the total collegiate and professional football players in America.

    Injuries in American Football ... Page 133

    Academic Emergency Medicine, M.J. Mello et al., Injuries in Youth Football, March 2009.

    Talavage, Thomas; Eric A. Nauman, Evan L. Breedlove, Umit Yoruk, Anne E. Dye, Katie Morigaki, Henry Feuer, Larry J. Leverenz (In Press). "Functionally-Detected Cognitive Impairment in High School Football Players Without Clinically Diagnosed Concussion". Journal of Neurotrauma.

    A chronicle of injuries of an American intercollegiate football team

    I guess it all depends on your definition of injury... but I consider an injury to be anything that inhibits or makes the playing of the game uncomfortable. Injuries are high at the top levels in nearly every sport. Do some research and you will find that a 20% incidence of injury in crossfit is nothing compared some sports.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrivest View Post
    Those are just examples of ****ty trainers, which happens a whole ton with traditional trainers as well! I don't know where the whole "everyone has to do the same thing" garbage came from, but most CF gyms DO NOT do that!! I have traveled a lot and been to a lot of good CF gyms that pay very close attention to an individuals skill strength and form. Although I am not a fan of high rep Oly lifts, I haven't run across and CF trainers that will let anyone use anything more than they can handle. Plus, if they are just learning the for, it's bar only, or even just a PVC to help them learn without getting hurt.
    The biggest problem people I see on these forums is the generalizations that people make just because they don't like something, or they searched for some fail videos on you tube.
    Yet again, the coaches, not the actual programming are the causes of these injuries which can be avoided entirely with proper training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    1st quote: Crossfit is based off of periodization methods... hell, Mark Rippetoe helped design the strength portion of the programming you see in crossfit. All crossfit chapters consist of two workouts, in case you didn't know, one is a form a periodization based off skill level (SWOD) and the other the conditioning part (DWOD). So by saying that the actual strength programming at minimal reps causes injury is ludicrous, it's the people not the program, plain and simple. Rhabdo only occurs in those who don't know how to recover properly and ignore the signs of overtraining, again, the persons fault not the program.

    2nd quote: You are exactly right, I agree that 20 reps of 135 lb. power snatches are dangerous to a novice/intermediate, but then again the person should be aware of what they're signing up for. That's not the programs fault, that's the fault of the business end of the program and coaches (not properly trained) who do not properly inform participants of the program and it's requirements; that they need to be proficient in the lifts before they go anywhere over 5 reps in ANY technical movement. The coaches should be taught how to assess their clients accordingly and make sure that their clients are fully aware of the dangers they could potentially face.

    3rd quote: Football, whether reported or not, everyone who has actually played has had an injury over the course of their career at the college level and higher, after 10 years of beating your body day in and day out. Especially concussions, which often times go unreported due to the fact that they are easy to hide and hard to detect. The study has a very high degree of uncertainty and a very high percent of error because most times minor injuries in the sport go unnoticed and unreported, we just put an ace wrap around it, RICE it, and hit the field. Your study only accounts for instances that were reported and only a small percentage of the total collegiate and professional football players in America.

    Injuries in American Football ... Page 133

    Academic Emergency Medicine, M.J. Mello et al., Injuries in Youth Football, March 2009.

    Talavage, Thomas; Eric A. Nauman, Evan L. Breedlove, Umit Yoruk, Anne E. Dye, Katie Morigaki, Henry Feuer, Larry J. Leverenz (In Press). "Functionally-Detected Cognitive Impairment in High School Football Players Without Clinically Diagnosed Concussion". Journal of Neurotrauma.

    A chronicle of injuries of an American intercollegiate football team

    I guess it all depends on your definition of injury... but I consider an injury to be anything that inhibits or makes the playing of the game uncomfortable. Injuries are high at the top levels in nearly every sport. Do some research and you will find that a 20% incidence of injury in crossfit is nothing compared some sports.
    1. What kind of periodization scheme(s) are within CF as I have yet to see anything that resembles a structured plan?
    2. How is that not a display of a lack of integrity and terrible ethics? If clients knew how to properly train, then they wouldn't seek outside tutelage.
    3. You cannot talk about the contact aspect when it comes to injury rates within football as that is something that is not cannot be compared to anything in CF. The direct comparison that can be made, however, is the injury rates that stem from S&C within football to the injury rates within CF. 3.59% compared to 20% is a huge discrepancy and that is the heart of the issue.

    You can be a CF apologist all you want and try to spin and minimize the data, but it does not change the fact that the injury rate is unacceptable and that CF shows a huge lack of ethics in allowing so many irresponsible and uneducated people to guide others. I've already covered the many flaw within their paradigm several times and not once has anyone addressed these actual issues. What this peer-reviewed data does is strengthen my case against CF.
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    Bottom line: Crossfit is still gay ;-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post
    Bottom line: Crossfit is still gay ;-)
    I'll call this "WODenvy"!!! Haha!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    2nd quote: You are exactly right, I agree that 20 reps of 135 lb. power snatches are dangerous to a novice/intermediate, but then again the person should be aware of what they're signing up for. That's not the programs fault, that's the fault of the business end of the program and coaches (not properly trained) who do not properly inform participants of the program and it's requirements; that they need to be proficient in the lifts before they go anywhere over 5 reps in ANY technical movement. The coaches should be taught how to assess their clients accordingly and make sure that their clients are fully aware of the dangers they could potentially face.
    .
    so can it be said that crossfit is not for the average joe. could it be said that it is for technically proficient and condiftioned individuals with a base understanding of periodization and recovery protocols.

    cause that is not how the world sees crossfit. hell, many trainers dont understand periodization and recovery worth a damn.

    if the trainers/coaches did assess each client and customize the program than why do WODs exist at all? i can understand the big name WODs like Jan. like a test to gauge progress.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrivest View Post

    I'll call this "WODenvy"!!! Haha!!
    Ill call that comment even gayER!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post

    Ill call that comment even gayER!
    Hahaha!
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    You're talking a program that requires very advanced lifts, done in a fast paced, PR level form, until body exhaustion, where repetition is the key most of the times. Ok.

    So, let's compare basic statistics here:

    Chances of you performing a wrong motion in a sample size of 100 repetitions when in comparison to a sample size of 6 repetitions? Whereas one you are aiming for speed as well and the other one you are aiming to have the best execution, usually in front of a mirror, and if you're lifting heavy, usually with a spotter or partner.

    Please enlighten me how doing 100 reps, with no monitoring, and aiming for speed, should not be considered a bigger risk of injuries when compared to traditional bodybuilding. It is pure statistics at this point, not even taking in consideration the qualitative data.

    Couple that with poor instructors, very little attention paid to the athlete in question (whether it be by the person itself or a trainer), the goal of the exercise and the program and who performs each. Sure, go ahead and do crosfit, just don't claim that it is as safe as being in a gym because it is not, hence the studies.
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    Okay I have a serious question.
    What are those weird looking pull-ups that cross fitters do?
    And what are their purpose? In other words, what are you training (it's certainly not back), and what do they make you good at?
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    Are you referring to the ones that looks like the hoops that gymnasts do?

    Because I've heard a friend and his "trainer" say that you have to do whatever it takes to get the extension over the hoops, swing your legs, prop, whatever it may be... yep, that sounds very technically sound and something that develops you a lot.

    Done properly I would imagine biceps, back, and once you're over the mid range triceps as a dip and chest. But to me that's an exercise just asking for injury.
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddgranit
    Okay I have a serious question.
    What are those weird looking pull-ups that cross fitters do?
    And what are their purpose? In other words, what are you training (it's certainly not back), and what do they make you good at?
    They're Kipping pull ups and they make you good at labral tears...
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddgranit View Post
    Okay I have a serious question.
    What are those weird looking pull-ups that cross fitters do?
    And what are their purpose? In other words, what are you training (it's certainly not back), and what do they make you good at?
    The kipping pullup is one of my major issues with CF. Momentum should never used in order to complete a lift outside of maybe a few cheat reps at the end to extend a set, but even that is not for the novice trainee.
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    A kipping pull up and a strict pull up are completely different exercises, one is done for strength and the other for amount of work .

    The kipping pull up involves a hip snap generating momentum that moves up the spine and into the arms. This lets you lift your body over the bar with less direct pulling. The result is a lot more pull ups. While easier on the direct pulling muscles, they are much harder on the grip and are inarguably more cardiovascular.
    I kip, dead hand and go weighted pull ups still
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    Re: Crossfit injury rate


    I submit to the courts Exhibit A

    WOD 13.1

    http://games.crossfit.com/workouts/the-open/2013#tabs-1

    MEN - includes Masters Men up to 54 years old
    Proceed through the sequence below completing as many reps as possible in 17 minutes of:
    40 Burpees
    75 pound Snatch, 30 reps
    30 Burpees
    135 pound Snatch, 30 reps
    20 Burpees
    165 pound Snatch, 30 reps
    10 burpees
    210 pound Snatch, as many reps as possible

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xfit10 View Post
    A kipping pull up and a strict pull up are completely different exercises, one is done for strength and the other for amount of work .

    The kipping pull up involves a hip snap generating momentum that moves up the spine and into the arms. This lets you lift your body over the bar with less direct pulling. The result is a lot more pull ups. While easier on the direct pulling muscles, they are much harder on the grip and are inarguably more cardiovascular.
    I kip, dead hand and go weighted pull ups still
    Using kipping pullups for work capacity purposes is like using a stapler for a roof.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    Using kipping pullups for work capacity purposes is like using a stapler for a roof.
    The goal of kipping is different than strict
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xfit10 View Post
    The goal of kipping is different than strict
    And that goal is what exactly? To finish the WOD as fast as possible and as easily as possible?
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    Re: Crossfit injury rate


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    And that goal is what exactly? To finish the WOD as fast as possible and as easily as possible?
    Yes i believe that is the goal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post

    And that goal is what exactly? To finish the WOD as fast as possible and as easily as possible?
    Well that depends on the the WOD, but the amount of kippkng pull ups is not easy in a large number. Yes, easier than strict, but faster, like I said I a lot of Crossfitters do strict pull ups instead kipping when the number are low or even go strict as long as possible, then switch to kipping
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    If its timed, then yes as fast as possible
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xfit10 View Post
    The goal of kipping is different than strict
    Yes, I read that point, but I was highlighting how using it as a means of increasing work capacity makes no sense. The same can be said for high rep deadlifts, Oly lifts, etc. that are ubiquitous within CF. This increases the chance of injury more than anything and is just another glaring example of the lack of programming and fundamental knowledge of energy systems, fatigue, and proper modality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    Yes, I read that point, but I was highlighting how using it as a means of increasing work capacity makes no sense. The same can be said for high rep deadlifts, Oly lifts, etc. that are ubiquitous within CF. This increases the chance of injury more than anything and is just another glaring example of the lack of programming and fundamental knowledge of energy systems, fatigue, and proper modality.
    How does it not make sense? By doing kipping as opposed to strict we are able to perform more pull ups in a shorter amount of time, increasing work output
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    It is the incorporation (bastardization) of other sports into the Crossfit program.

    That type of pull up is used in gymnastics to get above the bar and from there perform another move. You will never see a gymnastics coach having his athletes do sets of kipping pull ups to improve that skill. It is a skill, like kicking a soccer ball or throwing a baseball, and should be treated like one. You wouldn't have a swimmer perform the start of race to fatigue, you wouldn't have a batter swing until he is fatigued and can no longer handle the bat, and you shouldn't train that skill for work capacity or exhaustion either.

    It is not functional. The chances of one needing to perform that movement 10-20 times in a row in real life or sport is minimal. Just look to gymnastics where it originated, they are perhaps performing that move 1-3 times in an entire routine, with quite a bit of space between. Train the core, the hips, and the traditional pull up to increase strength...not kipping pull ups to failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xfit10 View Post
    How does it not make sense? By doing kipping as opposed to strict we are able to perform more pull ups in a shorter amount of time, increasing work output
    The reason it doesn't make sense is that there are a myriad of safer and more efficient methods of increasing work output (e.g sled dragging). Instead, CF decided to use an piss poor excuse to fluff their workouts with a movement that accomplishes nothing. It's all momentum and doesn't improve hip, back, or arm strength. Add in the fatigue factor (BTW, just because you are tired doesn't make the workout good) and you have a disproportionate injury increase.
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