Leg help

[bmoore]

Can y'all help me me come up with a good leg routine? Until about December I was one of those college kids that didnt do legs at all, but I started doing PHAT training about two months ago and have since really enjoyed my leg days.
So far this is what I've been doing

Power lower:
Squat 5x5
Leg press 2x8
Leg extension 2x8
Machine press 3x8
Sldl 3x5
Lunges
Standing CR 2x10
Seated CR 2x10

Hyper lower:
Squats 5x15
Leg press 3x10
Machine press 2x15
Extension 3x15
Rdl 3x8
Sldl 2x15
Push back
Seated CR
Standing CR
Leg press 2x8 1x failure

Generally the order and weights are changed up somewhat because my gym is very limited with equipment so there's a good chance that I won't be able to do exercises right away. So far I've seen some good gains, so is there anything y'all thing I should do different or add in?

 

[Rodja]

I take out leg ex and sub them with Bulgarian split squats or another unilateral exercise that will strengthen the knee as opposed to stress it. I also think you should alternate between SLDL/RDL and good mornings. IMO, there is nothing that builds up the squat and deadlift like the good morning.

 

[scherbs]

I second Rodja's comments.
Also, why aren't you doing speed work on the squats?
I assume that is why you have subbed in 5x15 on your hyper day for the squats.
You might want to try doing the program as designed--it can really help bring up your squat while packing on muscle

 

[bmoore]

Well I've got the heavy on power days at 5x5, and I thought the program called for one day of light high rep days? Plus this kills my legs and with the limitations at my gym most of the machines and such not go up to very high weights

 

[scherbs]

Lighter weight and high reps yes, but don't neglect the speed work.

http ://www .directlyfitness. com/ 2012/ p-h-a-t-training- layne-nortons- workout-system/ (Remove spaces)

 

[bmoore]

What benefit does do the speed squats have over what I'm doing?

 

[scherbs]

What benefit does do the speed squats have over what I'm doing?

First off, 5x15 is ridiculous volume for squats-you cannot possibly be doing any appreciable weight w/ good form.
Secondly, working speed will improve your efficiency handling weight and thus improve your squat overall.

 

[JD261985]

First off, 5x15 is ridiculous volume for squats-you cannot possibly be doing any appreciable weight w/ good form.
Secondly, working speed will improve your efficiency handling weight and thus improve your squat overall.

What's appreciable weight to him is the weight that maximizes intensity with good form

 

[scherbs]

What's appreciable weight to him is the weight that maximizes intensity with good form

True, but it is very difficult to train 15 reps of a compound exercise that requires a modicum of weight to make truly effective.

 

[ZiR RED]

Bar speed has an effect on 1 RM, such that if you are not incorporating dynamic and reactive effort movements (rate of force development, aka power) into the training you will not be getting optimal results. Much of this is neurally related.

There's a bunch of novel dynamic and reactive movements in my blog:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/220249-its-about-dominance-6.html

Br

 

[PaulBlack]

What benefit does do the speed squats have over what I'm doing?

2 pesos...

If you are looking for mass and some reg. strength gains set & rep wise, then speed work may not be for you, at least not at his point.
Do not do something/anything because it is in vogue or cool or the masses seem to be doing it. Do it because it will help you in achieving a goal.

There are still a few questions from some, as to whether or not speed work is really the be all end all.
Here is what I have learned and some others have echoed...

Speed work is "usually always", done with loads that are very comfortable to the CNS etc. and does not tax the body like trying grinding heavy singles, doubles or triples on a regular basis.
The basic rule is, that you are applying as much force against the bar (*after the slack is out) just like you would in a max effort attempt and moving the bar with as much speed as possible, but since the weight is much more manageable you don;t get so beat up. It apparently trains the muscles and CNS to prepare better for heavy hard singles, but lacks the drain on the body that applies to max work.
Some guys try and tune the loads in and use accommodating resistance ie: chains and bands to slow the top of the move down and also train the easier ROM area.
I use it but I still cannot say directly, it has made a huge difference. I just cannot pinpoint specifically that the gain is from X, since while I do speed work, a lot of my reg work is maxing and or using loads in excess of 80%-85%-90% for sets reps, so that is what happens.
I believe it has some validity as do quite a few gurus and I use it when I have a lighter day for extra work, or incorporate it in a certain day between a heavy day.

If one is new to lifting or needing to do basic stuff to get more advanced or past the intermediate stage, then I may be inclined to think, you won't see results that are boasted by the more elite powerlifters etc.

*After the slack is out...
I have seen some guys in gyms/deadlifting, yank a bar off the floor, thinking they are doing "speed work" but actually ripping their shoulder joints out of socket. You must first set up to have tension all the way down thru your arms and hands, pre-pulling on the bar, then and only then, after you have a slight pull or tension in the shoulders back legs arms etc., you lift the bar with as much force as possible.
Sorry for long winded post

 

[bmoore]

No thank you for the long reply, that help a lot with my understanding of it. When I first started the program I felt like I wasn't doing enough work with my initial lifts, that's why I went to the 5x15. But that does make sense that you're more training your cns and such for the heavy days.

 

[PaulBlack]

5x15 is a lot of volume, that honestly, is probably overboard for most. Even pro BB'ers who are assisted don't do that kind of volume usually. If you can do that many sets and reps of say squats, 2 things may be going on to look for.
1) You could probably use more weight, which, may in fact make all those reps and sets almost impossible to complete. 2x15 might be much more in line provided you are working hard enough to not want to really do a 3rd set HA HA HA
2) You could do say 3x10 and get the same or even more, out of the leg/squat work as the 5x15.
There is a point of what they call diminishing returns, where after a said set of whatever the exercise, you are probably just overtraining the muscle and past its point that day to gain anymore from more work.

It is like pushups compared to BP's. If you are only using BW in a pushup even if you are able to do 100, your body will adapt and stop growing in size and strength because you are not increasing the load as you get stronger. Whereas the BP, by adding weight, will have the body constantly trying to adapt and get stronger to make the reps with the load the body is being called to do, which in turn makes it grow in mass too.

 

[bmoore]

That's understandable, I just always figured that if i was overtraining id be able to tell through constant soreness or something like that

 

[PaulBlack]

That's understandable, I just always figured that if i was overtraining id be able to tell through constant soreness or something like that

Well, it's not specifically a "systemic" overtrained state, but more that you already did enough for that group or muscle for that day and more is not always better. Quality and quantity are rather close, but just quantity for the sake of doing 100+ reps, is more or less, overkill. Once you elicit breakdown for that W/O/day, to keep beating the muscles with lighter high reps, becomes rather futile and does little if anything for hypertrophy or strength. That is most likely why most routines have a basic set up or framework of about 3-5 sets of 8-10 reps per exercise and if one is going heavier or trying to add power along with mass, then multiple sets of say x5's, x3's come into play.
Using loads in the squat or dead at or around 70%-85% of a 1RM, would really be tough with 5x15.
*I also agree wholeheartedly with the poster that mentioned (doing the routine as written). Written routines, will do a trainee much better if the trainee is not sure of how to tweak it, or make it work for them to achieve certain goals. That comes thru experience and time under the bar.

 

[bmoore]

Okay well that makes sense. I did the speed squats and replaced leg extensions with the Bulgarian split squats. I was surprised by how tired I got from the squats. Because they're speed squats should I take a really short break in between sets, like shorter than 30 secpnds?

 

[PaulBlack]

Because they're speed squats should I take a really short break in between sets, like shorter than 30 secpnds?

1 min is usually the average. They are not speed squats as far as doing the sets fast/close, but doing the reps fast.
I do anywhere from 1-2 mins between.

 

[ZiR RED]

As a general recommendation I take 30 sec per repetition of rest on speed movements between sets. So if you are doing sets of 3 its 1.5 min, sets of 2 its 1 min, etc. You really shouldn't be going over sets of 4-5 maximum.

Br

 

[bmoore]

Sorry it took me so long to respond to this, I've been studying non stop. I can do that though, the other day when I was in the gym I did 30 seconds between each set. A minute to a minute and a half sounds a lot better. Thanks for all of y'all's help