[RippedCity]

Hey guys a buddy of mine who has been lifting for a long time says if you work only dumbells you won't add weight on to your bench is this true? I'm more into body building than weight lifting but at the same time I would like to add weight to the bench

[vygah]

I have always found that if I only train with db for a while that as long as I increase strength in db press then bb will go up as well. Though the increase is not always proportionate. It also takes my body a workout or two in order to readjust.

[RippedCity]

I have always found that if I only train with db for a while that as long as I increase strength in db press then bb will go up as well. Though the increase is not always proportionate. It also takes my body a workout or two in order to readjust.

Thanks for the reply bro

[Rodja]

They're very different lifts and have techniques. DBs can help to strengthen weaknesses in your bench, but you still have to bench.

[Young Gotti]

Hey guys a buddy of mine who has been lifting for a long time says if you work only dumbells you won't add weight on to your bench is this true? I'm more into body building than weight lifting but at the same time I would like to add weight to the bench

if your into bodybuilding then the weight isn't as important here but a lot of ppl have scraped the bench press all together since it's an inferior chest exercise to the db's

Best For Overall Chest Mass: Dumbbell Bench PressRecent research from Las Vegas based StrengthPro Inc., headed by David Sandler, MS, CSCS, showed that the dumbbell bench press involves the front delts far less than the barbell bench press, since the arms come out to the sides more with dumbbells. Less delt involvement means more pec stimulation, which is exactly what you want for maximal chest development.

so for bodybuilding purposes i wouldn't stress too much over the strength on barbell bench

[ThunderHumper]

if your into bodybuilding then the weight isn't as important here but a lot of ppl have scraped the bench press all together since it's an inferior chest exercise to the db's

Best For Overall Chest Mass: Dumbbell Bench PressRecent research from Las Vegas based StrengthPro Inc., headed by David Sandler, MS, CSCS, showed that the dumbbell bench press involves the front delts far less than the barbell bench press, since the arms come out to the sides more with dumbbells. Less delt involvement means more pec stimulation, which is exactly what you want for maximal chest development.

so for bodybuilding purposes i wouldn't stress too much over the strength on barbell bench

but bb bench is known for one of the best compound upper body exercises. if chest isolation is the goal, wouldnt the chest press machine smash both? or cable crossovers maybe?

[Airborne42]

They're very different lifts and have techniques. DBs can help to strengthen weaknesses in your bench, but you still have to bench.

This 100%
Flat press for power, Db for stability and keeping muscle equal

[NYiron]

This 100%
Flat press for power, Db for stability and keeping muscle equal

I Wouldn't necessarily call flat bench a power exercise unless your doing speed bench and its variations. Power = force x velocity. Strength yes but power no unless that equation is rounded out with high velocity.

[ThunderHumper]

I Wouldn't necessarily call flat bench a power exercise unless your doing speed bench and its variations. Power = force x velocity. Strength yes but power no unless that equation is rounded out with high velocity.

lol im gonna go out and say i think he ment strength and db = stability

or maybe he benches and throws the bar into the air, that would make it power

[Young Gotti]

but bb bench is known for one of the best compound upper body exercises. if chest isolation is the goal, wouldnt the chest press machine smash both? or cable crossovers maybe?

A db press is a compound exercise though. Just a better chest exercise for development. I do however enjoy db or machine fly's for isolation.

I have seen BBer's not use either. I believe Ronnie Rockel in one video says he barely uses either exercise anymore and for that whole video used a press machine and a fly machine

[Airborne42]

You get more power in bb then Db. Strength tho yes

[NYiron]

You get more power in bb then Db. Strength tho yes

Not necessarily, if you move equivalent weight with dumbells faster then you move a barbell you will yield a higher power output with dumbells over the barbell in that instance. It's all related to the force applied and the speed at which it is executed as the equation states.

[Airborne42]

Not necessarily, if you move equivalent weight with dumbells faster then you move a barbell you will yield a higher power output with dumbells over the barbell in that instance. It's all related to the force applied and the speed at which it is executed as the equation states.

Max flat press was 500... I havnt seen Db that would suit me for that. I get where your comin from tho. I'm a PL we push heavy. Db are a diff story for me

[NYiron]

Max flat press was 500... I havnt seen Db that would suit me for that. I get where your comin from tho. I'm a PL we push heavy. Db are a diff story for me

Thats strength not power...

[Rodja]

Not necessarily, if you move equivalent weight with dumbells faster then you move a barbell you will yield a higher power output with dumbells over the barbell in that instance. It's all related to the force applied and the speed at which it is executed as the equation states.

With proper technique, you will get more power out of BB than DB due to the leg drive and the fact that you can get your lats more involved with a BB due to the setup.

[NYiron]

With proper technique, you will get more power out of BB than DB due to the leg drive and the fact that you can get your lats more involved with a BB due to the setup.

I understand that very well, but that's only due to the potential to create a higher bar velocity as a result of the increased muscle mass being activated. To say that barbell bench is a power exercise in general is incorrect like I said unless its done as a speed bench.

For example his statement involving a 500 lb bench press.

X = 500lb barbell bp x 1m/s bar speed
X = 500 Watts

Y = (90 lb Dbs) 180 lbs x 3 m/s db speed
Y = 540 watts

X < Y therefore, power is a dependent variable hinging heavily on velocity. So to say that bp is a power exercise would be incorrect it has potential to be more of a power exercise but unless completed in a certain protocol it will not necessarily be such. Clean and jerk, snatch, etc those are power exercises due to their foundations in creating high bar velocities across the board.

[Rodja]

You still require a high amount of force to move a high resistance. It may not fit the classical example of a lift that requires high amounts of power, but you also can't compare movements when one does not have an eccentric phase. I've seen studies that show the highest rate of force development and power with only 30% of your 1RM, but is that really going to have a lot of carryover? Absolutely not.

[NYiron]

You still require a high amount of force to move a high resistance. It may not fit the classical example of a lift that requires high amounts of power, but you also can't compare movements when one does not have an eccentric phase. I've seen studies that show the highest rate of force development and power with only 30% of your 1RM, but is that really going to have a lot of carryover? Absolutely not.

There is a difference between force and power that's the point I'm trying to establish. Regardless of the weight being moved or muscle being activated unless movement occurs at high velocities power output will be relatively low. Like I have said, bench press can result in high power outputs but only when done under speed protocols. It's calling a bench press a power exercise because of the weight that can be moved which is incorrect.

Power output is a direct result of the concentric phase, the eccentric phase of a lift isn't applicable when it comes to power output so that comparison can most definitely be drawn. As far as the question of 30% 1 RM power output and carry over that in essence is more or less the basis for the west side dynamic effort days. There undoubtably will be carry over with regards to power output in submax loads and completion of 1 RM loads.

[Rodja]

There is a difference between force and power that's the point I'm trying to establish. Regardless of the weight being moved or muscle being activated unless movement occurs at high velocities power output will be relatively low. Like I have said, bench press can result in high power outputs but only when done under speed protocols. It's calling a bench press a power exercise because of the weight that can be moved which is incorrect.

Power output is a direct result of the concentric phase, the eccentric phase of a lift isn't applicable when it comes to power output so that comparison can most definitely be drawn. As far as the question of 30% 1 RM power output and carry over that in essence is more or less the basis for the west side dynamic effort days. There undoubtably will be carry over with regards to power output in submax loads and completion of 1 RM loads.

One of the primary components of power is rate of force development. You can't move a heavy weight slow, so the statement of lower power output with a heavy weight is far from correct. Regarding the lack of eccentric motion, since there is not a stretch-reflex involved in these movements (e.g. cleans), they cannot be directly compared to movements that do involve an eccentric phase (e.g. bench).

You have a general idea of how the DE day works, but you also have some incorrect information. 30% is far too low of a load to have transfer to increasing the 1RM even if accommodating resistance is added into the equation even for the 100% raw lifter. The lowest bar weight that I've ever seen recommended is 40%, but that is for highly advanced lifters and accommodating resistance is added to this. You should also know that the DE for bench in particular is slowly being phased out by many top lifters because of the lack of transfer between raw benching and shirted benching as it is very common to get ~200lbs out of a shirt.

[NYiron]

Exactly! Power = force x VELOCITY

You just defined power (rate of force development = joules/s = watts) which is what I have been saying across all of my posts, but you are incorrect in saying that heavy weight will be moved fast as the equation in my previous post demonstrates. Show me anyone who can bench max loads faster than submax loads. Bench presses done under max loading with inevitably have lower bar velocities when compared to bench presses done under submax loads. Max loads will produce less power no matter how you put it. Its physics higher loads require higher force but as a result the velocity will suffer. Submax loads require less force and as a result velocity will increase yielding higher power outputs.

As far as stretch reflex goes it would be an advantageous condition so in that aspect maybe it could not 100 percent be compared. I will say though that in the case of power the concentric phase is being analyzed so with that and power in mind pure physics there can be comparisons drawn.

With respect to the DE day I did not outline the protocol so to say I have misinformation wouldn't be correct and it is exactly why I chose my words "in essence and more or less" when relating it to your statement on 30% 1RM. The physiological effect of high velocity submax loading is what I was relating the DE day and you statement on 30% 1RM to.

[Rodja]

Exactly! Power = force x VELOCITY

You just defined power (rate of force development = joules/s = watts) which is what I have been saying across all of my posts, but you are incorrect in saying that heavy weight will be moved fast as the equation in my previous post demonstrates. Show me anyone who can bench max loads faster than submax loads. Bench presses done under max loading with inevitably have lower bar velocities when compared to bench presses done under submax loads. Max loads will produce less power no matter how you put it. Its physics higher loads require higher force but as a result the velocity will suffer. Submax loads require less force and as a result velocity will increase yielding higher power outputs.

As far as stretch reflex goes it would be an advantageous condition so in that aspect maybe it could not 100 percent be compared. I will say though that in the case of power the concentric phase is being analyzed so with that and power in mind pure physics there can be comparisons drawn.

With respect to the DE day I did not outline the protocol so to say I have misinformation wouldn't be correct and it is exactly why I chose my words "in essence and more or less" when relating it to your statement on 30% 1RM. The physiological effect of high velocity submax loading is what I was relating the DE day and you statement on 30% 1RM to.

You've missed my point despite this long diatribe. You're harping so much about the time aspect that you're ignoring that significant power is still produced at near/max loads. This position that you're taking is the exact position taken by people that do not have a great understanding about powerlifting.

[NYiron]

You've missed my point despite this long diatribe. You're harping so much about the time aspect that you're ignoring that significant power is still produced at near/max loads. This position that you're taking is the exact position taken by people that do not have a great understanding about powerlifting.

I haven't missed your point but rather pointed out it is incorrect. The position you are taking is one that is indicative of someone that does not have a great understanding of physics applied to physiology.

[Airborne42]

Ima stand by Rodja on this one! This is his practice

[Rodja]

I haven't missed your point but rather pointed out it is incorrect. The position you are taking is one that is indicative of someone that does not have a great understanding of physics applied to physiology.

"You can't move a heavy weight slow."
- Dr Fred Hatfield

At no point did I say bar velocities will be the same, but you are taking the erroneous position that maximal weight will not have a high amount of power by comparing them to Olympic lifts, which cannot be compared due to the lack of eccentric movement and stretch reflex, or a dynamic effort, which changes immensely for a raw lifter to a geared lifter.

[RippedCity]

I understand that very well, but that's only due to the potential to create a higher bar velocity as a result of the increased muscle mass being activated. To say that barbell bench is a power exercise in general is incorrect like I said unless its done as a speed bench.

For example his statement involving a 500 lb bench press.

X = 500lb barbell bp x 1m/s bar speed
X = 500 Watts

Y = (90 lb Dbs) 180 lbs x 3 m/s db speed
Y = 540 watts

X < Y therefore, power is a dependent variable hinging heavily on velocity. So to say that bp is a power exercise would be incorrect it has potential to be more of a power exercise but unless completed in a certain protocol it will not necessarily be such. Clean and jerk, snatch, etc those are power exercises due to their foundations in creating high bar velocities across the board.

Why are you comparing the rate of power of dumbells and barbell at different speeds. 1 m/s vs 3m/s. If you want to compare straight power both velocities should be the same right?