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    Quote Originally Posted by NYiron View Post
    Bar speed may be emphasized but unless it occurs power output will be low. Thats saying, "I thought about going to the gym today but I didn't does it still count as a workout?"

    We are the only two discussing the subject so how could anyone else say anything about max force output in regards to bar weight? While it may be myopic thats what is being discussed the ability to produce power under max force output. The reference to max bench press as a power exercise is what is being questioned, so Im not sure where you were going with that one.

    Lastly never did I claim to be an expert on the conjugate method, so your personal attack on my scope means nothing, I raised one point which you, yourself, have just validated in saying "This is the most important aspect of the dynamic effort; not the load itself, but the bar speed" as my statement concerned DE and submax loading in effort to create torque and power.
    It's invalid to the discussion because it is not using appropriate technique. Bench is meant as a whole-body lift, not as solely as an upper-body lift.

    Your straw man is awful on the analogy, but that's another issue altogether. Like I've already said several times, but you can't seem to grasp, just because it doesn't fall under the classical tense of a "power" exercise does not mean that a 1RM will not move significant power to it. Will be equal or great than a submaximal load? Probably not, but that is not the point and, regarding the dynamic effort, the primary reason for its development was because you can only have so many days devoted to maximal strength and, for raw lifters, the recommendations are much higher than what would fall under "power" terms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYiron View Post
    Just curious as well what medical or strength and conditioning governing body advocates the powerlifting bench press form as proper? Not to say it isn't most effective but I'd like to see which advocates for it NSCA, ACSM?
    The NSCA, NASM, ACSM, etc. does not know how to bench properly and are stuck in the BB'ing mentality of solely upper-body. Proper form is dictated by maximal strength and safety, which are the two primary aspects on technique as taught throughout the powerlifting community.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    It's invalid to the discussion because it is not using appropriate technique. Bench is meant as a whole-body lift, not as solely as an upper-body lift.

    Your straw man is awful on the analogy, but that's another issue altogether. Like I've already said several times, but you can't seem to grasp, just because it doesn't fall under the classical tense of a "power" exercise does not mean that a 1RM will not move significant power to it. Will be equal or great than a submaximal load? Probably not, but that is not the point and, regarding the dynamic effort, the primary reason for its development was because you can only have so many days devoted to maximal strength and, for raw lifters, the recommendations are much higher than what would fall under "power" terms.
    Your argument has morphed several times over the last few posts, so grasping your point is rather difficult when every post includes a new aspect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    The NSCA, NASM, ACSM, etc. does not know how to bench properly and are stuck in the BB'ing mentality of solely upper-body. Proper form is dictated by maximal strength and safety, which are the two primary aspects on technique as taught throughout the powerlifting community.
    Exactly why I said "not to say it isn't most effective" because I practice it myself
    and know its efficacy. To deem it proper, where is your basis? Do you have studies supporting the safety?
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYiron View Post
    Exactly why I said "not to say it isn't most effective" because I practice it myself
    and know its efficacy. To deem it proper, where is your basis? Do you have studies supporting the safety?
    Proper is by engaging as many motor units as possible throughout the body by emphasizing tightness and the entire body. Safety is by reducing ROM and a more neutral angle of the elbow and lower bar position on the chest for less strain upon the shoulder capsule.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    It's invalid to the discussion because it is not using appropriate technique. Bench is meant as a whole-body lift, not as solely as an upper-body lift.

    Your straw man is awful on the analogy, but that's another issue altogether. Like I've already said several times, but you can't seem to grasp, just because it doesn't fall under the classical tense of a "power" exercise does not mean that a 1RM will not move significant power to it. Will be equal or great than a submaximal load? Probably not, but that is not the point and, regarding the dynamic effort, the primary reason for its development was because you can only have so many days devoted to maximal strength and, for raw lifters, the recommendations are much higher than what would fall under "power" terms.
    You haven't discussed this once at any other point. There is no classical sense of power, what the hell is that? Power is power, physics is physics you can not dispute power = force x velocity as the classical sense, as if there is some new law of physics applying to low power output max effort bench dictating that it is actually a high power output exercise. There either is high or low output no grey area, new or classical sense, on this. In italics you have agreed with me then quickly diverted away saying its not the point when that is exactly the point and has been since my first post concerning airborne's statement of barbell bench being a power exercise.

    Edit: There is a certain degree of power, some higher than others, associated with every exercise, but does that make a heavy barbell bent over row a power exercise because of the weight that can be moved and the degree of assisting isometric contractions, no. The way you are thinking every exercise can be considered a power exercise as long as there is a significant amount of force applied. That is only one side of the equation and power output rides heavily on velocity which has been my point across every single one of my statements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Proper is by engaging as many motor units as possible throughout the body by emphasizing tightness and the entire body. Safety is by reducing ROM and a more neutral angle of the elbow and lower bar position on the chest for less strain upon the shoulder capsule.
    EMG data? Why is reduced range safer? Brings in questioning on decreased mobility, strength and stability through full ROM. Do you have data on the biomechanics of a shortened range and lower bar position and GH integrity over time? What are these claims based in other than anecdotal evidence? Im not saying i completely disagree but there is a lot open for questioning and unless you have data to support your claims they are trivial. Also, what is the effect of the dorsal vertebral compression and excessive anterior pelvic tilting, associated with the arch, under load?
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYiron View Post
    You haven't discussed this once at any other point. There is no classical sense of power, what the hell is that? Power is power, physics is physics you can not dispute power = force x velocity as the classical sense, as if there is some new law of physics applying to low power output max effort bench dictating that it is actually a high power output exercise. There either is high or low output no grey area, new or classical sense, on this. In italics you have agreed with me then quickly diverted away saying its not the point when that is exactly the point and has been since my first post concerning airborne's statement of barbell bench being a power exercise.
    I said it in post #17. When I say classical sense, I mean a movement that is swift and high bar velocity. However, you're stuck in the view that this is the only example of a movement that requires significant power. You think that the only form of a movement requiring significant power is something with high bar velocity and submaximal weight when that is not true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I said it in post #17. When I say classical sense, I mean a movement that is swift and high bar velocity. However, you're stuck in the view that this is the only example of a movement that requires significant power. You think that the only form of a movement requiring significant power is something with high bar velocity and submaximal weight when that is not true.
    I stand corrected on that I do apologize. Please enlighten me then as to what you mean, because i am not stuck in anything I am only stating the physics.

    Edit: power is a measure of energy transfer so a movement can't require power it can only yield a power output. A movement will require force to overcome inertia and power is a measure of the rate of that force production that overcomes said inertia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYiron View Post
    I stand corrected on that I do apologize. Please enlighten me then as to what you mean, because i am not stuck in anything I am only stating the physics.

    Edit: power is a measure of energy transfer so a movement can't require power it can only yield a power output. A movement will require force to overcome inertia and power is a measure of the rate of that force production that overcomes said inertia.
    You're just being intentionally facetious at this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne42 View Post
    This 100%
    Flat press for power, Db for stability and keeping muscle equal
    Airborne, WTF have you started
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    If your goal is to build a better body, then how much weight you're benching is arbitrary. Yeah, I know a lot of people like to see their bench numbers climb, but I'm the type that pays more attention to how my body is changing in the mirror.

    I don't get a lot out of strict barbell benches. Back in the day I focused on barbell bench a lot, and my bench weight rose a lot, but my chest never developed like I wanted it to. Then I switched to doing mostly dumbbell work and dips, and my chest looks way better nowadays. Way better. And I can't bench as much on the barbell because I don't do it anymore. Sometimes people ask me what I can bench, or what my 1RM is, and I always answer, I don't know, I don't care. lol

    I guess you gotta find what works best for you.


    Something that helped me was switching to DB instead of BB, and doing chest with back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Type O Hero
    If your goal is to build a better body, then how much weight you're benching is arbitrary. Yeah, I know a lot of people like to see their bench numbers climb, but I'm the type that pays more attention to how my body is changing in the mirror.

    I don't get a lot out of strict barbell benches. Back in the day I focused on barbell bench a lot, and my bench weight rose a lot, but my chest never developed like I wanted it to. Then I switched to doing mostly dumbbell work and dips, and my chest looks way better nowadays. Way better. And I can't bench as much on the barbell because I don't do it anymore. Sometimes people ask me what I can bench, or what my 1RM is, and I always answer, I don't know, I don't care. lol

    I guess you gotta find what works best for you.

    Something that helped me was switching to DB instead of BB, and doing chest with back.
    Yeah the main goal is to build a better physique. So I will do many DBs and throw in a occasional BB exercise. Yeah I don't really care either what my max is either bro. Haven't maxed out in over a year. I wish I could do BB more but I have a way better mind muscle connection in my right pec then left. When I do dips I only feel **** I'm my right really. Sucks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Type O Hero View Post
    If your goal is to build a better body, then how much weight you're benching is arbitrary. Yeah, I know a lot of people like to see their bench numbers climb, but I'm the type that pays more attention to how my body is changing in the mirror.

    I don't get a lot out of strict barbell benches. Back in the day I focused on barbell bench a lot, and my bench weight rose a lot, but my chest never developed like I wanted it to. Then I switched to doing mostly dumbbell work and dips, and my chest looks way better nowadays. Way better. And I can't bench as much on the barbell because I don't do it anymore. Sometimes people ask me what I can bench, or what my 1RM is, and I always answer, I don't know, I don't care. lol

    I guess you gotta find what works best for you.

    Something that helped me was switching to DB instead of BB, and doing chest with back.
    I do the same exact thing when asked that. I haven't flat benched since my shoulder surgery in 09' except for some light 135.

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    With barbell benches I find that my shoulders are overly involved. I can't get around it. I guess it's just the way I'm built. The only thing I get out of barbell benches is that I get better at doing barbell bench press. And I'm in it for the looks (from girls) and health benefits, not to see my bench press numbers go up.

    Before I go into this, let it be known that different things work for different people. As I said above, I get nothing out of barbell bench presses, but depending on your build, you may find barbell bench presses the best exercise for developing chest muscles. Anyway...

    My chest started looking better after I started working chest with back. This is generally what my routine has looked like for a while, after warm ups and stretching... (Where you see A.) and B.), and so on, denotes that it's part of a superset).

    A.) Pull-ups (I usually add 5lbs by belt)..... 3 x max
    B.) Weighted Chest Dips..... 3 x 8-10

    Underhanded Barbell Rows..... 4 x 10-12, 8-10, 6-8, 4-6

    C.) Incline DB Flyes..... 3 x 8-10
    D.) Incline DB Presses..... 3 x 10, 8, 6

    T-Bar Rows..... 3 x 10, 8, 6
    (Lower Back Exercise, such as Good Mornings or Hyperextensions.... Usually 3 sets, 10-15ish reps)
    DB Pullovers..... 3 x 15-20


    I change it up some, but more or less it's about like that. The gym I've been working in kind of sucks, so I'm fairly limited in what I can do at the moment. But this works pretty well. I may remove (Lower Back Exercise) and replace with deadlifts once my conditioning gets back up (I'm coming back from an extended break).

    Technique > How much weight you're using
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    Quote Originally Posted by Type O Hero View Post
    If your goal is to build a better body, then how much weight you're benching is arbitrary. Yeah, I know a lot of people like to see their bench numbers climb, but I'm the type that pays more attention to how my body is changing in the mirror.

    I don't get a lot out of strict barbell benches. Back in the day I focused on barbell bench a lot, and my bench weight rose a lot, but my chest never developed like I wanted it to. Then I switched to doing mostly dumbbell work and dips, and my chest looks way better nowadays. Way better. And I can't bench as much on the barbell because I don't do it anymore. Sometimes people ask me what I can bench, or what my 1RM is, and I always answer, I don't know, I don't care. lol

    I guess you gotta find what works best for you.


    Something that helped me was switching to DB instead of BB, and doing chest with back.
    couldn't have said it better
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    Quote Originally Posted by Type O Hero View Post
    With barbell benches I find that my shoulders are overly involved. I can't get around it. I guess it's just the way I'm built. The only thing I get out of barbell benches is that I get better at doing barbell bench press. And I'm in it for the looks (from girls) and health benefits, not to see my bench press numbers go up.

    Before I go into this, let it be known that different things work for different people. As I said above, I get nothing out of barbell bench presses, but depending on your build, you may find barbell bench presses the best exercise for developing chest muscles. Anyway...

    My chest started looking better after I started working chest with back. This is generally what my routine has looked like for a while, after warm ups and stretching... (Where you see A.) and B.), and so on, denotes that it's part of a superset).

    A.) Pull-ups (I usually add 5lbs by belt)..... 3 x max
    B.) Weighted Chest Dips..... 3 x 8-10

    Underhanded Barbell Rows..... 4 x 10-12, 8-10, 6-8, 4-6

    C.) Incline DB Flyes..... 3 x 8-10
    D.) Incline DB Presses..... 3 x 10, 8, 6

    T-Bar Rows..... 3 x 10, 8, 6
    (Lower Back Exercise, such as Good Mornings or Hyperextensions.... Usually 3 sets, 10-15ish reps)
    DB Pullovers..... 3 x 15-20


    I change it up some, but more or less it's about like that. The gym I've been working in kind of sucks, so I'm fairly limited in what I can do at the moment. But this works pretty well. I may remove (Lower Back Exercise) and replace with deadlifts once my conditioning gets back up (I'm coming back from an extended break).

    Technique > How much weight you're using
    Nice routine and thanks for sharing. My bench has been suffering somewhat. I had shoulder surgery a while back, so I'm very careful when it comes to benching. I don't go for 1RM or anything of that sort for bench. I'm in the same boat as looking better, rather than solely seeing how much I can lift.

    I've been thinking about going with heavy DB's, since I cannot quite get my shoulders set right as I press. I'm in the same boat as you, where I feel I'm using too much front delt and not enough pecs.

    Gonna borrow some of your workout for my chest routine today.
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