- 12-06-2012, 01:37 PM
- 12-06-2012, 02:32 PM
Maximum power, optimal load and optimal power spectrum for power training in upper-body (bench press): a review - Editorial Elsevier
Thats exactly my point the bar velocities will not be the same. No matter what you will move a max load slower than a submax load. The loss of velocity associated with the higher load will result in a reduced power output no matter how you put it. With a lighter load the higher bar velocity will produce a higher power output.
No, i haven't taken "the erroneous" stance that max weight will not have a high amount of power out through comparison with olympic lifts, that doesn't make any sense. I took the stance that 1RM pressing will not have a high power output because of decreased bar velocity. I made the statement concerning olympic lifts as a clarifier as to what constitutes a power exercise. Olympic lifts emphasize bar velocity across the board submax and max while, bench press does not unless it is completed under speed bench protocols, and that caveat to my stance was mentioned several times.
12-06-2012, 02:46 PM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
12-06-2012, 03:15 PM
Bar speed may be emphasized but unless it occurs power output will be low. Thats saying, "I thought about going to the gym today but I didn't does it still count as a workout?"
We are the only two discussing the subject so how could anyone else say anything about max force output in regards to bar weight? While it may be myopic thats what is being discussed the ability to produce power under max force output. The reference to max bench press as a power exercise is what is being questioned, so Im not sure where you were going with that one.
Lastly never did I claim to be an expert on the conjugate method, so your personal attack on my scope means nothing, I raised one point which you, yourself, have just validated in saying "This is the most important aspect of the dynamic effort; not the load itself, but the bar speed" as my statement concerned DE and submax loading in effort to create torque and power.
12-06-2012, 03:33 PM
Just curious as well what medical or strength and conditioning governing body advocates the powerlifting bench press form as proper? Not to say it isn't most effective but I'd like to see which advocates for it NSCA, ACSM?Originally Posted by Rodja
12-06-2012, 03:56 PM
Your straw man is awful on the analogy, but that's another issue altogether. Like I've already said several times, but you can't seem to grasp, just because it doesn't fall under the classical tense of a "power" exercise does not mean that a 1RM will not move significant power to it. Will be equal or great than a submaximal load? Probably not, but that is not the point and, regarding the dynamic effort, the primary reason for its development was because you can only have so many days devoted to maximal strength and, for raw lifters, the recommendations are much higher than what would fall under "power" terms.
M.Ed. Ex Phys
12-06-2012, 03:59 PM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
12-06-2012, 04:02 PM
Your argument has morphed several times over the last few posts, so grasping your point is rather difficult when every post includes a new aspect.Originally Posted by Rodja
12-06-2012, 04:06 PM
Exactly why I said "not to say it isn't most effective" because I practice it myselfOriginally Posted by Rodja
and know its efficacy. To deem it proper, where is your basis? Do you have studies supporting the safety?
12-06-2012, 04:10 PM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
12-06-2012, 06:23 PM
Edit: There is a certain degree of power, some higher than others, associated with every exercise, but does that make a heavy barbell bent over row a power exercise because of the weight that can be moved and the degree of assisting isometric contractions, no. The way you are thinking every exercise can be considered a power exercise as long as there is a significant amount of force applied. That is only one side of the equation and power output rides heavily on velocity which has been my point across every single one of my statements.
12-06-2012, 06:35 PM
12-06-2012, 06:38 PM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
12-06-2012, 06:46 PM
Edit: power is a measure of energy transfer so a movement can't require power it can only yield a power output. A movement will require force to overcome inertia and power is a measure of the rate of that force production that overcomes said inertia.
12-06-2012, 06:57 PM
12-06-2012, 07:00 PM
12-06-2012, 08:08 PM
12-16-2012, 08:38 AM
If your goal is to build a better body, then how much weight you're benching is arbitrary. Yeah, I know a lot of people like to see their bench numbers climb, but I'm the type that pays more attention to how my body is changing in the mirror.
I don't get a lot out of strict barbell benches. Back in the day I focused on barbell bench a lot, and my bench weight rose a lot, but my chest never developed like I wanted it to. Then I switched to doing mostly dumbbell work and dips, and my chest looks way better nowadays. Way better. And I can't bench as much on the barbell because I don't do it anymore. Sometimes people ask me what I can bench, or what my 1RM is, and I always answer, I don't know, I don't care. lol
I guess you gotta find what works best for you.
Something that helped me was switching to DB instead of BB, and doing chest with back.
12-16-2012, 06:54 PM
Yeah the main goal is to build a better physique. So I will do many DBs and throw in a occasional BB exercise. Yeah I don't really care either what my max is either bro. Haven't maxed out in over a year. I wish I could do BB more but I have a way better mind muscle connection in my right pec then left. When I do dips I only feel **** I'm my right really. SucksOriginally Posted by Type O Hero
12-16-2012, 07:18 PM
12-17-2012, 09:46 AM
With barbell benches I find that my shoulders are overly involved. I can't get around it. I guess it's just the way I'm built. The only thing I get out of barbell benches is that I get better at doing barbell bench press. And I'm in it for the looks (from girls) and health benefits, not to see my bench press numbers go up.
Before I go into this, let it be known that different things work for different people. As I said above, I get nothing out of barbell bench presses, but depending on your build, you may find barbell bench presses the best exercise for developing chest muscles. Anyway...
My chest started looking better after I started working chest with back. This is generally what my routine has looked like for a while, after warm ups and stretching... (Where you see A.) and B.), and so on, denotes that it's part of a superset).
A.) Pull-ups (I usually add 5lbs by belt)..... 3 x max
B.) Weighted Chest Dips..... 3 x 8-10
Underhanded Barbell Rows..... 4 x 10-12, 8-10, 6-8, 4-6
C.) Incline DB Flyes..... 3 x 8-10
D.) Incline DB Presses..... 3 x 10, 8, 6
T-Bar Rows..... 3 x 10, 8, 6
(Lower Back Exercise, such as Good Mornings or Hyperextensions.... Usually 3 sets, 10-15ish reps)
DB Pullovers..... 3 x 15-20
I change it up some, but more or less it's about like that. The gym I've been working in kind of sucks, so I'm fairly limited in what I can do at the moment. But this works pretty well. I may remove (Lower Back Exercise) and replace with deadlifts once my conditioning gets back up (I'm coming back from an extended break).
Technique > How much weight you're using
12-17-2012, 04:22 PM
12-17-2012, 05:00 PM
I've been thinking about going with heavy DB's, since I cannot quite get my shoulders set right as I press. I'm in the same boat as you, where I feel I'm using too much front delt and not enough pecs.
Gonna borrow some of your workout for my chest routine today.
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