Training till Failure?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by EBroser
    Ughhh...it is really you guys that miss the point - but its all good.
    What point would that be? You were asked to provide rational and couldn't then when provided with rational by rodja you side stepped it and fell on anecdotal evidence. Regardless of if its 50 years of experience it's without a true understanding of the mechanisms behind the visible adaptation. While yes experience holds a very high value it is still not quantifiable, controlled, or truly replicable and for that reason can not be held as or suggested as fact.

  2. Thumbs up


    Quote Originally Posted by chitown58 View Post
    Instead of him posting all these links trying to back up what he's saying, why don't u just try it!...ud b surprised how much better personal experience can be than all this ever changing sport science bs..
    Don't bother even trying my friend. People who rely on others' science, which is so often conflicting as well as poorly designed, biased, based on populations that mean nothing to the real athlete - will never reach their potential (at least I will say that is MY opinion).

    The very best trainers on this planet of course read and consider what "science" has to say (jeez my education is mostly in physiology, kinesiology, anatomy, biology, physiological psychology, genetics, etc), but then also MUST use their own intelligence, experimentation and results, and put it up against what is found in a lab by people wearing white coats. This is the ONLY way to truly determine what works and what doesn't, not only with themselves personally, but with all of their clients. If you are truly good at what you do and want to be a pioneer and not a follower, then you will take meticulous notes, create your own experiments, test and re-test, consider variables, etc -- just like any decent scientist would do.

    Some of the best guitar players in this world never took a single lesson - no, not exactly the same thing, but you get my point.

    I am done with this thread only because I have said my piece and do not plan on changing the minds of those who have "opposed" me here. I only wish to help out as best I can with my knowledge and experience and from there members can choose their own path.

    Respectfully...
    *CEO BROSER BUILT INTERNATIONAL www.broserbuilt.com*WRITER FOR PLANET MUSCLE/IRONMAN.MUSCLEANDFITNESS.COM*NGA PRO BODYBUILDER*PHYSIQUE TRANSFORMATION ARTIST/CONTEST PREP GURU
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by NYiron View Post
    What point would that be? You were asked to provide rational and couldn't then when provided with rational by rodja you side stepped it and fell on anecdotal evidence. Regardless of if its 50 years of experience it's without a true understanding of the mechanisms behind the visible adaptation. While yes experience holds a very high value it is still not quantifiable, controlled, or truly replicable and for that reason can not be held as or suggested as fact.
    Cool bro.
    *CEO BROSER BUILT INTERNATIONAL www.broserbuilt.com*WRITER FOR PLANET MUSCLE/IRONMAN.MUSCLEANDFITNESS.COM*NGA PRO BODYBUILDER*PHYSIQUE TRANSFORMATION ARTIST/CONTEST PREP GURU

  4. works for jason huh
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by EBroser

    Don't bother even trying my friend. People who rely on others' science, which is so often conflicting as well as poorly designed, biased, based on populations that mean nothing to the real athlete - will never reach their potential (at least I will say that is MY opinion).

    The very best trainers on this planet of course read and consider what "science" has to say (jeez my education is mostly in physiology, kinesiology, anatomy, biology, physiological psychology, genetics, etc), but then also MUST use their own intelligence, experimentation and results, and put it up against what is found in a lab by people wearing white coats. This is the ONLY way to truly determine what works and what doesn't, not only with themselves personally, but with all of their clients. If you are truly good at what you do and want to be a pioneer and not a follower, then you will take meticulous notes, create your own experiments, test and re-test, consider variables, etc -- just like any decent scientist would do.

    Some of the best guitar players in this world never took a single lesson - no, not exactly the same thing, but you get my point.

    I am done with this thread only because I have said my piece and do not plan on changing the minds of those who have "opposed" me here. I only wish to help out as best I can with my knowledge and experience and from there members can choose their own path.

    Respectfully...
    I know what your saying. I love to experiment in the weight room and have for many years. I have also found that lifting to failure has given me the best results. I believe the results of this sport rely so much on the individual that it is hard to say any one way is factual. Many studies you read may have test subjects with little experience with weight training or are underdeveloped. What if your central nervous system can handle much more abuse than theirs due to your long term high intensity training? So many variables have to be accounted for to get an accurate reading.
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  6. Is it wrong to agree with both sides?


  7. Quote Originally Posted by NYiron

    What point would that be? You were asked to provide rational and couldn't then when provided with rational by rodja you side stepped it and fell on anecdotal evidence. Regardless of if its 50 years of experience it's without a true understanding of the mechanisms behind the visible adaptation. While yes experience holds a very high value it is still not quantifiable, controlled, or truly replicable and for that reason can not be held as or suggested as fact.
    I would say that if this guy truly has the experience he claims, over that amount of time, than it's better than any study funded by who knows who, personally going to failure on a consistent basis has done wonders for me
    T2

  8. Quote Originally Posted by chitown58 View Post
    People just bother me sumtimes like those guys on youtube, they have the nerve to comment on guys like Branch Warren, Johnnie Jackson, Kai Greene, so many "nobodys" that look like they never even touched a weight in their life talking smack about the pro's form, saying "oh look at how awful Jonnies form is, he doing this all wrong" haha r u serious!! Even Jonnie had to say in one of his vids, "all these guys talking bout my form, ha trust me, I know exactly what works for me, if my vids bother u that much, then don't watch it"
    Bad form can give you results; but you'll end up paying for it in one way or another. I know guys with massive quads, whom when squatting, round their backs, buckle their knees etc. and wonder why they herniate disks, have bad posture, get pains, often get DOMS in the wrong muscles etc. even though results are made.

    Are you arguing that bad form should be encouraged, and people's heath and wellbeing put in danger for the sake of results? If so, please forward me which gym you work at and i'll be sure to instruct people to stay well away.

    On a related note, its interesting how people refute science over anecdotal, yet when something goes wrong, they rely on someone with a PHd to ensure they get back to health.

    In the end you do what works for you, but if you quote studies that claim to prove your point, at least post the evidence. Thats all he was asking before you got defensive.

    I will say that training to failure is something I do incorporate from time to time, but it's certainly not an end all-be all as claimed earlier. (hence why ZiR Red & Rodja & NYIron have now challenged it).

  9. Quote Originally Posted by schroedes View Post
    I would say that if this guy truly has the experience he claims, over that amount of time, than it's better than any study funded by who knows who, personally going to failure on a consistent basis has done wonders for me
    The challenge wasn't whether or not training to failure works, it was this statement (below) that triggered people wanting proof that training to failure is the only way to maximally trigger the anabolic machinery; considering he stated that science backs up his point yet he hasn't posted the studies. And then followed on later with this post "people who rely on others' science, which is so often conflicting as well as poorly designed, biased, based on populations that mean nothing to the real athlete - will never reach their potential (at least I will say that is MY opinion)" which leads me to the conclusion that, if he had indeed got his information from a study regarding faliure and anabolism; why would he believe it considering all studies are "biased and conflicting"?

    /rant

    Quote Originally Posted by EBroser View Post
    Every set is to failure for me. I believe this is the only way to maximally trigger the anabolic machinery and science also bears this out. Low to medium volume at the highest intensity is almost always best for the drug free athlete!

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz

    The challenge wasn't whether or not training to failure works, it was this statement (below) that triggered people wanting proof that training to failure is the only way to maximally trigger the anabolic machinery; considering he stated that science backs up his point yet he hasn't posted the studies. And then followed on later with this post "people who rely on others' science, which is so often conflicting as well as poorly designed, biased, based on populations that mean nothing to the real athlete - will never reach their potential (at least I will say that is MY opinion)" which leads me to the conclusion that, if he had indeed got his information from a study regarding faliure and anabolism; why would he believe it considering all studies are "biased and conflicting"?

    /rant
    Look at their physiques....u think they really care if u agree with them or not? U think they will change what they r doing because u or sum random on here doesn't agree with it? Ha u talk about proof, looks to me like they r doing just fine...

  11. Quote Originally Posted by chitown58

    Look at their physiques....u think they really care if u agree with them or not? U think they will change what they r doing because u or sum random on here doesn't agree with it? Ha u talk about proof, looks to me like they r doing just fine...
    I agree with this.
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by chitown58 View Post
    Look at their physiques....u think they really care if u agree with them or not? U think they will change what they r doing because u or sum random on here doesn't agree with it? Ha u talk about proof, looks to me like they r doing just fine...
    Lol tbh I couldn't care less. Nor was that even the point of my post. People can train the way they want to train but when you start telling other people to follow on with your bad habits then I step in, out of professional courtesy.
    Training safely ensures you can train all your life, once you **** yourself up with injuries from bad form, everything slows and rehab is a *****.

    Look at the exercise science forum, or even within this forum on how many people need help with injuries stemming from bad form.

  13. What works is not always optimal. There's food for thought. I don't understand why some are so quick to dismiss science. Obviously people intelligent enough to be involved in literature and research are also intelligent enough to determine whether a study is well designed and also whether or not it is applicable to certain populations. These people often have an education in the various sciences which will also involve a heavy amount of research based coursework. They are not sheep. Nobody ever discredited anecdotal evidence, however, the best combine anecdotal evidence with proven science to produce optimal results. It also drives intelligent conversation

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz

    Lol tbh I couldn't care less. Nor was that even the point of my post. People can train the way they want to train but when you start telling other people to follow on with your bad habits then I step in, out of professional courtesy.
    Training safely ensures you can train all your life, once you **** yourself up with injuries from bad form, everything slows and rehab is a *****.

    Look at the exercise science forum, or even within this forum on how many people need help with injuries stemming from bad form.
    dude I never said for people to use bad form! Did u even read what wrote? U pretty much just prove my point...

  15. Quote Originally Posted by chitown58
    People just bother me sumtimes like those guys on youtube, they have the nerve to comment on guys like Branch Warren, Johnnie Jackson, Kai Greene, so many "nobodys" that look like they never even touched a weight in their life talking smack about the pro's form, saying "oh look at how awful Jonnies form is, he doing this all wrong" haha r u serious!! Even Jonnie had to say in one of his vids, "all these guys talking bout my form, ha trust me, I know exactly what works for me, if my vids bother u that much, then don't watch it"
    Reread it bro

  16. Quote Originally Posted by chitown58 View Post
    Reread it bro
    Haha, I think that post can be misinterpreted where it says "I do what works for me". My bad if I read it in another way that what it was intended, seemed like it was promoting what works over form, :S

    sigh, threads like this are gold, at least now I get what you mean

  17. i like science. thats why i like guys like Louie Simmons, A.S. Prilepin, Tudor Bompa, Vladimir Zatsiorsky, Fred Hatfield, and Vladimir Issurin. now i could also say i like coaches and athletes that have done amazing things. and who do you think some of the coaches are? some from the previous lists.

    exercise is as much art as it is science. you cant be a great coach/athlete without knowledge of both. sure you can get there with just time under the bar. sure you can try and reinvent the wheel all over and spend decades of researching all on yourself. but that just sounds slow, inefficient and an experiment in stupid. you can read the research done on tens of thousands of people over a span of decades and at times backed up by nearly a century of evidence and use that to skip the crap and maximize the time under the bar. an even bigger better benefit is you are more likely to stay injury free and therefore be lifting many more years, therefore gaining much more than others without both sides.

    even when you know the basics there is also the the lifter and this is where the art comes in. say the lifter is a powerlifter that is most motivated with a 4 day workout, lots of PRs, and hates speed work. i bet a 5/3/1 would work great for him. science says 5/3/1 works, art says 5/3/1 works for him.

    wow, that really speeds up the process. without the art and focusing on science you may throw westside at him. half his main work is speed work which he hates and therefore slacks on or does all wrong. he goes way too hard on max days and gets injured. now he thinks westside sucks, but the science says it works. who is he to believe.

    and the debates go on ad nauseum.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.

  18. I just read a good article in the news section of this forum by Dr Jim Stopanni about going to failure, it's a good read if you guys wanna check it out
    T2

  19. Quote Originally Posted by schroedes View Post
    I just read a good article in the news section of this forum by Dr Jim Stopanni about going to failure, it's a good read if you guys wanna check it out
    i browsed through 17 pages of articles and could not find the one you mentioned. might you have a link please.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig

    i browsed through 17 pages of articles and could not find the one you mentioned. might you have a link please.
    Ya it was like 2 weeks ago, I'll look
    T2

  21. It's on oct 15th, called, lifting heavy
    T2

  22. I guess it's geared more toward lifting heavy, still a good read though
    T2

  23. There's alot of different kind of muscle builds on people and how there body response to stimuli for instance my lifting partner can go 415 on bench and crank out 8 to 10 reps then when we drop set to 225lb he can get 15 reps where as I can't throw up the 415 for as many reps as he can but I can bust out alot more reps then him after drop setting to 225 so it's all about what gives you results if you think going to failure works for you and your getting the results you are looking for then go for it.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by badnews09 View Post
    There's alot of different kind of muscle builds on people and how there body response to stimuli for instance my lifting partner can go 415 on bench and crank out 8 to 10 reps then when we drop set to 225lb he can get 15 reps where as I can't throw up the 415 for as many reps as he can but I can bust out alot more reps then him after drop setting to 225 so it's all about what gives you results if you think going to failure works for you and your getting the results you are looking for then go for it.
    what you just described is a trainable variable. you can train for endurance, size and strength. so its not an accurate example for this discussion.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by schroedes View Post
    It's on oct 15th, called, lifting heavy
    found it using google:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/conte...ng-heavy-2120/
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.

  26. I lift till i cant anymore and only lower lbs maybe once. and this takes about 30-50min per workout. what i do most of time. i only workout 2-4 days a week, works for me.
    LG Sciences Board Rep
    These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, do not constitute medical advice, and are not official or authorized comments by LG Sciences, LLC.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Blergs
    I lift till i cant anymore and only lower lbs maybe once. and this takes about 30-50min per workout. what i do most of time. i only workout 2-4 days a week, works for me.
    That's what I was going for well said
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