21s for huge growth or just a pump?
- 08-01-2012, 07:20 PM
Rodja, your devaluing your own education here, in these post you are coming off as conceited, condescending and closed minded. If you re-read Zir's post it actually does not argue against "pump" or "dooshe bag" training as some of you have most affectionately deemed it (laughs) but rather places a small warning label per say. The only negative side his post states is that the net fluid reabsorption intramuscularly, is decreased and this may have an effect on recovery. Acute inflammation of skeletal muscle, as a result of resistance training, is the basis of the super compensation effect and has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis.
"In this case, muscular contractions cause a local increase in cytokines, activating inflammation. Think of cytokines as local chemical messengers – they're signaling proteins that help with intercellular communication, such as Interleukin 6 (IL-6) increasing muscle glucose uptake and the use of fats as fuel. They also activate a local inflammatory response, kicking off a cascade of events associated with muscle growth and repair. Along with local growth factor release in response to mechanical tension, infiltrating immune cells play a direct role in satellite cell activation by locally releasing the cytokine TNFα (Meadows & Willis, 2011)."
Build up of metabolic waste products, as stated in Zir's post is also not a detrimental process, when it is acute, and has been shown to hold various ergogenic effects including but not limited to increased protein synthesis.
"In the early 2000s, it was conclusively shown that lactate has little detrimental effect on mechanically skinned fibres activated by artificial stimulation. Perhaps more remarkably, there are now several reports of protective effects of lactate exposure or induced acidosis on potassium-depressed muscle contractions in isolated rodent muscles. In addition, sodium-lactate exposure can attenuate severe fatigue in rat muscle stimulated in situ, and sodium lactate ingestion can increase time to exhaustion during sprinting in humans. Taken together, these latest findings have led to the idea that lactate/H+ is ergogenic during exercise (Cairns, 2006)."
Overall the aforementioned negative effect associated with "pump" training if properly hydrated will be negligible. This negative would be due to the occlusion time, but during resistance training this would be less than significant. Metabolic effect training, like 21's is just another means of unlocking growth potential outside of myofibril adaptation. Increasing skeletal muscle energy demands and forcing blood intramuscular, will result in sarcoplasmic expansion, increased glycogen storage and consequently intramuscular water storage equating to size, this coupled with myofibril stimulation rounds out the bodybuilding effect has and will continue to produce physiques worth of the term "art". Also in the post by Zir it states that the pump is limited to interstitial effect, but how could that be when diffusion down the pressure gradient, irrefutable physics, exists. Interstitial pressure will have no choice but to diffuse into the surrounding cells bringing with it nutrients and anabolic signaling agents. Lastly your post states that the blood needs to be removed from the gastrointestinal system to facilitate the "pump" but, this occurs regardless of what type of exercise you are engaged in, the body has higher priorities during acute stress than digestion. "While you are exercising, blood is diverted from your gastrointestinal tract to your muscles and lungs, impeding digestion (Glass, 2011)." You have placed, as it seems, all of your faith in one person, David Tate, don't get me wrong he is brilliant and it shows. In doing so, it seems, in your posts in this thread that you have shut off various other types of exercise principals that will yield effects and are grounded in science. Now this is fine, you are a free individual, but do not go out of your way to bash others for different goals/methods. Especially those who may not be able to constitute their reasonings in science, IMO it makes you look bad and the company you represent. I just would expect an individual, like myself, with an eduction to have little more of an open mind. There is not but one form, one principal, one mind set that yields results and there are other goals out there other than your own.
Meadows, J., & Willis, B. (2011). Managing inflammation. TNATION, Retrieved from http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...flammation&cr=
Cairns, S. P. (2006). Lactic acid and exercise performance: Culprit or friend. Adis; Sports Medicine, 36(4), Retrieved from http://adisonline.com/sportsmedicine...prit_or.1.aspx
Glass, Z. (2011). Digestion during exercise. Retrieved from http://www.livestrong.com/article/44...ring-exercise/
- 08-01-2012, 07:54 PM
Putting all this bs aside, a drop set with full range of motion would have a much better effect and same TUT. I think we did 21's in high school, it didn't contribute much.
08-01-2012, 07:56 PM
I did not bash anyone's opinion as I know what the theory and purpose of a 21 is. The term inflammation is far too broad to say that it is the trigger for protein synthesis and this actually leads into the whole DOMS debate, which is an entirely separate topic that I won't go into at this point. I didn't jump into the topic until Tate was bashed for something that was clearly meant to be humorous and not to be taken seriously. I take it a bit personal when someone attacks one of the most highly respected people in the industry and someone that I take to be a role model and mentor.
What I get sick and tired of is the "bro" mentality that repeats the same crap ad nauseum with little to no basis for it other than "that's what the pros do" or "that's what everyone says." When questioned, it always turns into a **** measuring contest where random, irrelevant stats are posted and nothing actually gets resolved. There are many methods to get to a goal and I think one of the worst culprits of endless dogma is BB'ing primarily due to Weider and their publications that have the same content repeatedly. At no point did VS provide anything providing evidence to support the notion that a pump is beneficial and, when prompted to do so, would change the subject and go off on a tangent.
M.Ed. Ex Phys
08-01-2012, 08:08 PM
08-01-2012, 08:13 PM
08-01-2012, 08:48 PM
"Bro" is not a mentality. It's the way I talk an how many of the guys in Brooklyn NY talk.. It's how
I address guys. Not a mentality
08-02-2012, 12:19 PM
what the hell are 21's anyway? lol
First time I've heard this term. I'm guessing 21 rep sets?
Tor, trust me I've read and received enough attitude from powerlifting/strength guys putting down people who don't focus on functional strength training. It's an elitist attitude I constantly come across. Step into a crossfit gym to get a quick understanding lol..
You're right about the 2nd part but nutrition rest etc are obvious. I was talking very generally about heavy vs volume. If you want max hypertrophy, you train with volume. Going heavy will give faster gains but will cause a plateau quickly. This is why I train 5/3/1 with periodization bible assistance. Best of both worlds.
08-02-2012, 01:26 PM
08-02-2012, 01:57 PM
08-02-2012, 03:44 PM
Ahh never mind the question. It's 3 rounds of 7 in one set, 2 sets of half reps (lower half, top half then full range of motion).
I used to do these when I was bodybuilding, but not all the time. They seemed to have worked at the time. I also use to use a barbell or curl bar, pull my elbows back, then curl. These worked the best for me at the time I think. It wasn't full range of motion since my arms were never fully extended down, but the TUT was constant because of this. This method always blew my arms up.
08-02-2012, 04:33 PM
I'm letting you know that the way I say "bro" is in no reference to a "gym mentality" lmao idk wtf a gym mentality would be (and I'm not looking for an answer so save your breath). It is how I and many ppl in Brooklyn NY address ppl. You obviously wouldn't know cause you are not from here (and I don't care if you came to visit 1 time either or any of your experiences with Brooklyn ppl). It's the same thing as in California ppl may say "Wuddup dude?" or in Chicago ppl say "Wuddup joe?" or how many black ppl say "Wuddup nigg*?" or how Australian ppl say "good day mate"..Yes it is a geographical thing because the way I speak or my NY accent is in no comparison to say a person in Boston or a person in middle America with a heavy southern accent. Take it however you like it I really don't care but I'm not gonna argue about the way I speak cause now this is getting a lil ridiculous. You are bored and just looking for arguments now.. I'm over it "dude" but I must admit this is now becoming very entertaining especially for a person of your stature and reputation on this forum site with 15k posts... If I had 15k posts Idk if I would even have time to train or work. Good for you though; you are the king of AnabolicMinds.comOriginally Posted by Rodja
08-02-2012, 04:36 PM
08-02-2012, 04:40 PM
08-02-2012, 05:48 PM
I'm not sure if you can understand this but he wasnt referring to you saying bro he was referring to your misguided parroting of false info and broscience explanations for why you are right with no acceptance of the opinions of those with more experience than you as a "bro mentality"Originally Posted by VS91588
08-02-2012, 05:58 PM
I didn't give any false info. In this forum topic all I said is that you should not neglect exercises. Just because it didn't work for youdoesn't mean it is a bad exercise... I really wish not to continue. This is annoyingOriginally Posted by Jim2542
08-02-2012, 06:14 PM
I don't have a particular opinion on the topic of 21s for muscle growth but i was referring to more than just this particular topic.Originally Posted by VS91588
08-02-2012, 07:03 PM
For example using a slin pin for Testosterone injections? Slin pins are meant for water based/SubQ injections. Have a fun TIME drawing and injecting Test in you. Keyword "Time" as in you are gonna be there with a needle inside you for like 5 mins lol.. Anything is possible I'm sure but why the hell would you use a slin pin for Test? I used a small needle once and I had a nasty bump on my glute for a week. I used a longer needle and got deeper and I no longer have a problem. Just get yourself a 5/8 and inject in your delt if you scared of bigger sized needles... Ppl on that forum topic agred with me when it came to the size of the needle. No false info here my friendOriginally Posted by Jim2542
08-02-2012, 07:12 PM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
08-02-2012, 07:15 PM
Record that 15s of your injection and PM me for my email address. I'd love to see it for myself.. Like I said I used a short needle when i 1st started cycling once and I had a nasty bump. Once I used a longer needle I was perfectly fine. And I also just don't do Test. I stack either deca or tren so a slin pin would be too small for me anywaysOriginally Posted by Rodja
08-02-2012, 07:22 PM
08-02-2012, 07:28 PM
That it won't get obsorbed? Obviously it will cuz it ain't going to Mexico (so I will say that was misinformed a lil) . But I know that if I used a slin pin I'd get a huge bump. It's not deep enough. I would only use slin pins for water based subQ injections. That's what they are meant forOriginally Posted by Rodja
08-02-2012, 07:35 PM
Here's some reading for you (since you're out of touch with things):
STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED
WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE
M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,
Hamilton, ON, Canada
Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous
(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however, its physiological effects are unclear.
We therefore investigated the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using
Patients and methods: Between May and September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving 10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism. Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for 41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with
testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL 200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks. Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration is not officially approved by Health Canada. T levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels were measured however; the week 12 data are still being collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit 0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l (p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T (25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1 (27.46+12.91 nmol/l).
Patients tolerated this therapy with no adverse effects.
Conclusions: A once-week SC injection of 50–100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further evaluation.
Saudi Med J. 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6
Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report.
Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D.
Department of Medicine, College of Medicine & Health Sciences, PO Box 35, Postal Code 123, Al-Khod, Sultanate of Oman. Tel. +968 99475401. Tel/Fax. +968 24413419. E-mail: [email protected].
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients.
METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study.
Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported.
CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.
M.Ed. Ex Phys
08-02-2012, 07:41 PM
That's great info! They use 50-100mg of Test. I use 750mg weekly.. Your point to me personally is invalidOriginally Posted by Rodja
08-02-2012, 07:46 PM
08-02-2012, 07:47 PM
08-02-2012, 07:49 PM
The point that it could be done? Sure anything could be done but that's like saying I rather crawl than walkOriginally Posted by Rodja
08-02-2012, 07:51 PM
08-02-2012, 08:01 PM
I guess not, bro. I don't have to agree with you do I? This is a democracy right? How about this. You stick to slin pins and I'll stick to my 23 and 25g needles. Aslong as I get my injections inside me and progress with my physique that's all that matters right? I think instated this about 5x in this forum topic that whatever works for you may not work for me and vice versa. Just keep lifting and eating... Good luck, dudeOriginally Posted by Rodja
08-02-2012, 08:07 PM
08-02-2012, 08:18 PM
Socialism more like it lol. No argument there my friend! ....we covered alot of topics I this thread lol we are up to politics now lmaoOriginally Posted by Jim2542
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