21s for huge growth or just a pump?

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    Man, did this thread turn into one big piece of s.hit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Where's your evidence for the first part? Why don't you read again...
    Well here is an article that explains a lil bit of both... FST7 is a new training principle from Hany Rambod so you can take it any way you like it. It's a routine based on ppl who like high volume training.. He also explains about the "pump"... I read up on FST7 and gave it a shot and have been doing it for a year now and has seen great improvements.. Sometimes it's ok to go outside the box and try something new. You never know unless you try it out and not be ignorant
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    DC training. Nuff said lol

    Seriously, why so serious?
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    As heavy as you can (not maxxing) for as many reps as you can.
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    Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.
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    And anyone who uses the term 'pump' in reference to training is by definition a douche
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Well here is an article that explains a lil bit of both... FST7 is a new training principle from Hany Rambod so you can take it any way you like it. It's a routine based on ppl who like high volume training.. He also explains about the "pump"... I read up on FST7 and gave it a shot and have been doing it for a year now and has seen great improvements.. Sometimes it's ok to go outside the box and try something new. You never know unless you try it out and not be ignorant
    Pumps do not mean a thing to growth. To borrow from a friend on the topic (Zir):

    "The pump is due to increased pressure in the vessels forcing fluid out into the interstitial space (the area outside of the muscle cells and blood vessels). As a result of this high pressure, some capillaries may actually be compressed and a lack of blood flow will be delivered. In addition, the high pressure reduces nutrient exchange and waste product removal. Which, in terms of signalling hypertrophy, is not an overall bad thing (see KATSU training). The pump, can however, reduce recovery due to fluid not reentering the system and a build up of inflammatory chemicals, which is one of the main reasons for performing a warm down and even cryotherapy (icing, ice baths, contrast showers, etc.) post workout."

    Another thing to consider is this: in order to send more blood to one area, you have to reduce the amount in another and it's usually from the digestive tract. This results not only in the aforementioned scenario, but in also slowing down the digestive process and delivering nutrients.
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    i say both!
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    Quote Originally Posted by napalm
    And anyone who uses the term 'pump' in reference to training is by definition a douche
    I guess Arnold Schwarzenegger is riding on the douche train
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588

    I guess Arnold Schwarzenegger is riding on the douche train
    I think the strength and conditioning world has learned a little about the training process since the 70's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by napalm

    I think the strength and conditioning world has learned a little about the training process since the 70's.
    Yes it did but his physique is timeless and ppl still strive to look like him... He was ahead of his time and if he was taking the amount of gear these new guys are taking I bet he would tower over all of them
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    So you devalue Tate's opinion because you disagree, but value Arnold's opinion because you agree? A little consistency in your argument would help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja
    So you devalue Tate's opinion because you disagree, but value Arnold's opinion because you agree? A little consistency in your argument would help.
    I never said that but in terms that 21s are for "wussys" I will devalue that opinion since he provided no educated reason other than sounding like an average joe on the forums with bro-science. My argument issssss we should always try out new exercises and there isn't anything wrong with doing 21s once and a while just to switch things up from normal traditional sets. Tate is obviously all about strength and conditioning and not much on bodybuilding and believe me I do stick to basic movements such as barbell curls, bench press, shoulder press, dead lifts and squats because the basic movements work. But it does not hurt to throw in different movements once and a while
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I never said that. My argument issssss we should always try out new exercises and there isn't anything wrong with doing 21s once and a while just to switch things up from normal traditional sets. Tate is obviously all about strength and conditioning and not much on bodybuilding and believe me I do stick to basic movements such as barbell curls, bench press, shoulder press, dead lifts and squats because the basic movements work. But it does not hurt to throw in different movements once and a while
    You insulted Tate and defended Arnold. How is that not what you said and you really need to stop talking about Tate since you obviously have no clue about him. In fact, you really should just stop posting altogether and spend more time learning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    You insulted Tate and defended Arnold. How is that not what you said and you really need to stop talking about Tate since you obviously have no clue about him. In fact, you really should just stop posting altogether and spend more time learning.
    Whatever you believe in is fine with you. We are 2 different ppl who obviously believe in 2 different training styles. I respect your opinion so how about you respect mine. Are you mad because I dont agree with you or something? And are you really mad because I thought Tates post was not educated for a man of his stature? Are you a close personal friend of his that you arguing for about 2 days with me now? What is he in relation to you? I said nothing wrong other than you should not neglect exercises because it's good to change things up. Do you comprehend what I am saying? I don't have to train the way you do and you don't have to train the way I do. I'm concerned about my body and how I look and competing in NPC bodybuilding shows. I'm 5'8" 230lbs and I have nothing to prove to you or any1. I'm not a powerlifter I bodybuild and yes I have much respect for those guys but that's not my game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Whatever you believe in is fine with you. We are 2 different ppl who obviously believe in 2 different training styles. I respect your opinion so how about you respect mine. Are you mad because I dont agree with you or something? And are you really mad because I thought Tates post was not educated for a man of his stature? Are you a close personal friend of his that you arguing for about 2 days with me now? What is he in relation to you? I said nothing wrong other than you should not neglect exercises because it's good to change things up. Do you comprehend what I am saying? I don't have to train the way you do and you don't have to train the way I do. I'm concerned about my body and how I look and competing in NPC bodybuilding shows. I'm 5'8" 230lbs and I have nothing to prove to you or any1. I'm not a powerlifter I bodybuild and yes I have much respect for those guys but that's not my game.
    You're avoiding again. You made a statement regarding the pump and have nothing to back up that claim. Meanwhile, you got all butthurt over a piece that was obviously tongue in cheek and insulted someone that I have great respect for and I have learned a great deal from in the past. I honestly could care less about your opinion as many of your posts are wrong (e.g. test injected with a slin pin will not be absorbed) and you've shown that you are not credible. Kinda ironic that you threw out the meathead label at Tate, yet you exhibit many of the classic traits of someone that most would classify as a "meathead."
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    Dude I injected Test with a short needle and I got a bump for like a week. I would never try to use a slin pin.. Obviously the oil is going to be inside you but I would never inject with that short of a needle... And I would have to say if we look at that forum post majority agreed with me when it comes to size
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more View Post
    So I started doing 21s again recently and for couple weeks thought i was getting great growth. But recently I'm starting to doubt my renewed love them. I feel like I'm just kinda spinning my wheels and I need to go back to my traditional heavey straight bar curls in the 6-12 range. My current bicep routine goes

    DB curl 3 x 10
    Hammer DB 3 x 10
    21s ez bar 3 sets
    21's are effective mainly because of the TUT (time under tension). You can increase overload through increased TUT (tempo change), increase in intensity, volume, decrease in the rest between sets. 21's allow you to focus more on the TUT, which can be a great tool for hypertrophy enhancement but at the same time will give you a huge pump. I like to use them as a tool, but never a staple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Dude I injected Test with a short needle and I got a bump for like a week. I would never try to use a slin pin.. Obviously the oil is going to be inside you but I would never inject with that short of a needle... And I would have to say if we look at that forum post majority agreed with me when it comes to size
    SubQ injections are used by many HRT doctors and has peer-reviewed data to support its use. I'd say that carries a bit more weight than the average forum "bro" and you have many people, such as yourself, that follow what has been repeated as gospel without any real reasoning behind it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    SubQ injections are used by many HRT doctors and has peer-reviewed data to support its use. I'd say that carries a bit more weight than the average forum "bro" and you have many people, such as yourself, that follow what has been repeated as gospel without any real reasoning behind it.
    I've been reading a little bit on this back and forth and I was a little confused until I saw his avatar, if he's from that Animal Pak forum, which is probably where he got his avatar from, there's no use in even arguing with him. They all think a pump should be the prime focus of everyones training and still think that "high reps tone".
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    lol who would argue with Dave Tate? Do you even know who he is? He's one of, if not the smartest exercise guru on the planet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Pumps do not mean a thing to growth. To borrow from a friend on the topic (Zir):

    "The pump is due to increased pressure in the vessels forcing fluid out into the interstitial space (the area outside of the muscle cells and blood vessels). As a result of this high pressure, some capillaries may actually be compressed and a lack of blood flow will be delivered. In addition, the high pressure reduces nutrient exchange and waste product removal. Which, in terms of signalling hypertrophy, is not an overall bad thing (see KATSU training). The pump, can however, reduce recovery due to fluid not reentering the system and a build up of inflammatory chemicals, which is one of the main reasons for performing a warm down and even cryotherapy (icing, ice baths, contrast showers, etc.) post workout."

    Another thing to consider is this: in order to send more blood to one area, you have to reduce the amount in another and it's usually from the digestive tract. This results not only in the aforementioned scenario, but in also slowing down the digestive process and delivering nutrients.

    Rodja, your devaluing your own education here, in these post you are coming off as conceited, condescending and closed minded. If you re-read Zir's post it actually does not argue against "pump" or "dooshe bag" training as some of you have most affectionately deemed it (laughs) but rather places a small warning label per say. The only negative side his post states is that the net fluid reabsorption intramuscularly, is decreased and this may have an effect on recovery. Acute inflammation of skeletal muscle, as a result of resistance training, is the basis of the super compensation effect and has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis.


    "In this case, muscular contractions cause a local increase in cytokines, activating inflammation. Think of cytokines as local chemical messengers – they're signaling proteins that help with intercellular communication, such as Interleukin 6 (IL-6) increasing muscle glucose uptake and the use of fats as fuel. They also activate a local inflammatory response, kicking off a cascade of events associated with muscle growth and repair. Along with local growth factor release in response to mechanical tension, infiltrating immune cells play a direct role in satellite cell activation by locally releasing the cytokine TNFα (Meadows & Willis, 2011)."

    Build up of metabolic waste products, as stated in Zir's post is also not a detrimental process, when it is acute, and has been shown to hold various ergogenic effects including but not limited to increased protein synthesis.

    "In the early 2000s, it was conclusively shown that lactate has little detrimental effect on mechanically skinned fibres activated by artificial stimulation. Perhaps more remarkably, there are now several reports of protective effects of lactate exposure or induced acidosis on potassium-depressed muscle contractions in isolated rodent muscles. In addition, sodium-lactate exposure can attenuate severe fatigue in rat muscle stimulated in situ, and sodium lactate ingestion can increase time to exhaustion during sprinting in humans. Taken together, these latest findings have led to the idea that lactate/H+ is ergogenic during exercise (Cairns, 2006)."

    Overall the aforementioned negative effect associated with "pump" training if properly hydrated will be negligible. This negative would be due to the occlusion time, but during resistance training this would be less than significant. Metabolic effect training, like 21's is just another means of unlocking growth potential outside of myofibril adaptation. Increasing skeletal muscle energy demands and forcing blood intramuscular, will result in sarcoplasmic expansion, increased glycogen storage and consequently intramuscular water storage equating to size, this coupled with myofibril stimulation rounds out the bodybuilding effect has and will continue to produce physiques worth of the term "art". Also in the post by Zir it states that the pump is limited to interstitial effect, but how could that be when diffusion down the pressure gradient, irrefutable physics, exists. Interstitial pressure will have no choice but to diffuse into the surrounding cells bringing with it nutrients and anabolic signaling agents. Lastly your post states that the blood needs to be removed from the gastrointestinal system to facilitate the "pump" but, this occurs regardless of what type of exercise you are engaged in, the body has higher priorities during acute stress than digestion. "While you are exercising, blood is diverted from your gastrointestinal tract to your muscles and lungs, impeding digestion (Glass, 2011)." You have placed, as it seems, all of your faith in one person, David Tate, don't get me wrong he is brilliant and it shows. In doing so, it seems, in your posts in this thread that you have shut off various other types of exercise principals that will yield effects and are grounded in science. Now this is fine, you are a free individual, but do not go out of your way to bash others for different goals/methods. Especially those who may not be able to constitute their reasonings in science, IMO it makes you look bad and the company you represent. I just would expect an individual, like myself, with an eduction to have little more of an open mind. There is not but one form, one principal, one mind set that yields results and there are other goals out there other than your own.

    Meadows, J., & Willis, B. (2011). Managing inflammation. TNATION, Retrieved from http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...flammation&cr=

    Cairns, S. P. (2006). Lactic acid and exercise performance: Culprit or friend. Adis; Sports Medicine, 36(4), Retrieved from http://adisonline.com/sportsmedicine...prit_or.1.aspx

    Glass, Z. (2011). Digestion during exercise. Retrieved from http://www.livestrong.com/article/44...ring-exercise/
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    Putting all this bs aside, a drop set with full range of motion would have a much better effect and same TUT. I think we did 21's in high school, it didn't contribute much.
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    I did not bash anyone's opinion as I know what the theory and purpose of a 21 is. The term inflammation is far too broad to say that it is the trigger for protein synthesis and this actually leads into the whole DOMS debate, which is an entirely separate topic that I won't go into at this point. I didn't jump into the topic until Tate was bashed for something that was clearly meant to be humorous and not to be taken seriously. I take it a bit personal when someone attacks one of the most highly respected people in the industry and someone that I take to be a role model and mentor.

    What I get sick and tired of is the "bro" mentality that repeats the same crap ad nauseum with little to no basis for it other than "that's what the pros do" or "that's what everyone says." When questioned, it always turns into a **** measuring contest where random, irrelevant stats are posted and nothing actually gets resolved. There are many methods to get to a goal and I think one of the worst culprits of endless dogma is BB'ing primarily due to Weider and their publications that have the same content repeatedly. At no point did VS provide anything providing evidence to support the notion that a pump is beneficial and, when prompted to do so, would change the subject and go off on a tangent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I did not bash anyone's opinion as I know what the theory and purpose of a 21 is. The term inflammation is far too broad to say that it is the trigger for protein synthesis and this actually leads into the whole DOMS debate, which is an entirely separate topic that I won't go into at this point. I didn't jump into the topic until Tate was bashed for something that was clearly meant to be humorous and not to be taken seriously. I take it a bit personal when someone attacks one of the most highly respected people in the industry and someone that I take to be a role model and mentor.

    What I get sick and tired of is the "bro" mentality that repeats the same crap ad nauseum with little to no basis for it other than "that's what the pros do" or "that's what everyone says." When questioned, it always turns into a **** measuring contest where random, irrelevant stats are posted and nothing actually gets resolved. There are many methods to get to a goal and I think one of the worst culprits of endless dogma is BB'ing primarily due to Weider and their publications that have the same content repeatedly. At no point did VS provide anything providing evidence to support the notion that a pump is beneficial and, when prompted to do so, would change the subject and go off on a tangent.
    I understand where you are coming from about the bro mentality and support you in your thinking. My interpretation of your posts was reflected in how I approached my post and if I was wrong in my assumptions of your standing, I do apologize. Although several of the disproving factors presented to VS were flawed. Inflammation is a broad definition, however not when referring to localized exercise induced skeletal muscle inflammatory processes. Yes, this will go into the DOMS debate and it is not worth it at this time as it will go on and on. Just as a closing if any of my interpretations, of your posts, were flawed again I do apologize. Hope for no hard feelings I just saw an attack and misinformation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYiron View Post
    I understand where you are coming from about the bro mentality and support you in your thinking. My interpretation of your posts was reflected in how I approached my post and if I was wrong in my assumptions of your standing, I do apologize. Although several of the disproving factors presented to VS were flawed. Inflammation is a broad definition, however not when referring to localized exercise induced skeletal muscle inflammatory processes. Yes, this will go into the DOMS debate and it is not worth it at this time as it will go on and on. Just as a closing if any of my interpretations, of your posts, were flawed again I do apologize. Hope for no hard feelings I just saw an attack and misinformation.
    No offense taken.
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    "Bro" is not a mentality. It's the way I talk an how many of the guys in Brooklyn NY talk.. It's how
    I address guys. Not a mentality
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    what the hell are 21's anyway? lol

    First time I've heard this term. I'm guessing 21 rep sets?

    Tor, trust me I've read and received enough attitude from powerlifting/strength guys putting down people who don't focus on functional strength training. It's an elitist attitude I constantly come across. Step into a crossfit gym to get a quick understanding lol..

    You're right about the 2nd part but nutrition rest etc are obvious. I was talking very generally about heavy vs volume. If you want max hypertrophy, you train with volume. Going heavy will give faster gains but will cause a plateau quickly. This is why I train 5/3/1 with periodization bible assistance. Best of both worlds.
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    21s on hammies 3 sets. thank me later
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    "Bro" is not a mentality. It's the way I talk an how many of the guys in Brooklyn NY talk.. It's how
    I address guys. Not a mentality
    It's a mentality that is shared by many in gyms all over America, not a way of addressing another person. It has nothing to do with geography; it's about to senseless, ignorant BS that the "bros" believe without any merit for doing so.
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    Ahh never mind the question. It's 3 rounds of 7 in one set, 2 sets of half reps (lower half, top half then full range of motion).

    I used to do these when I was bodybuilding, but not all the time. They seemed to have worked at the time. I also use to use a barbell or curl bar, pull my elbows back, then curl. These worked the best for me at the time I think. It wasn't full range of motion since my arms were never fully extended down, but the TUT was constant because of this. This method always blew my arms up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    It's a mentality that is shared by many in gyms all over America, not a way of addressing another person. It has nothing to do with geography; it's about to senseless, ignorant BS that the "bros" believe without any merit for doing so.
    I'm letting you know that the way I say "bro" is in no reference to a "gym mentality" lmao idk wtf a gym mentality would be (and I'm not looking for an answer so save your breath). It is how I and many ppl in Brooklyn NY address ppl. You obviously wouldn't know cause you are not from here (and I don't care if you came to visit 1 time either or any of your experiences with Brooklyn ppl). It's the same thing as in California ppl may say "Wuddup dude?" or in Chicago ppl say "Wuddup joe?" or how many black ppl say "Wuddup nigg*?" or how Australian ppl say "good day mate"..Yes it is a geographical thing because the way I speak or my NY accent is in no comparison to say a person in Boston or a person in middle America with a heavy southern accent. Take it however you like it I really don't care but I'm not gonna argue about the way I speak cause now this is getting a lil ridiculous. You are bored and just looking for arguments now.. I'm over it "dude" but I must admit this is now becoming very entertaining especially for a person of your stature and reputation on this forum site with 15k posts... If I had 15k posts Idk if I would even have time to train or work. Good for you though; you are the king of AnabolicMinds.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I'm letting you know that the way I say "bro" is in no reference to a "gym mentality" lmao idk wtf a gym mentality would be (and I'm not looking for an answer so save your breath). It is how I and many ppl in Brooklyn NY address ppl. You obviously wouldn't know cause you are not from here (and I don't care if you came to visit 1 time either or any of your experiences with Brooklyn ppl). It's the same thing as in California ppl may say "Wuddup dude?" or in Chicago ppl say "Wuddup joe?" or how many black ppl say "Wuddup nigg*?" or how Australian ppl say "good day mate"..Yes it is a geographical thing because the way I speak or my NY accent is in no comparison to say a person in Boston or a person in middle America with a heavy southern accent. Take it however you like it I really don't care but I'm not gonna argue about the way I speak cause now this is getting a lil ridiculous. You are bored and just looking for arguments now.. I'm over it "dude" but I must admit this is now becoming very entertaining especially for a person of your stature and reputation on this forum site with 15k posts... If I had 15k posts Idk if I would even have time to train or work. Good for you though; you are the king of AnabolicMinds.com
    Whatever you say, bro...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Whatever you say, bro...
    Okk cool... No hard feelings
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588

    I'm letting you know that the way I say "bro" is in no reference to a "gym mentality" lmao idk wtf a gym mentality would be (and I'm not looking for an answer so save your breath). It is how I and many ppl in Brooklyn NY address ppl. You obviously wouldn't know cause you are not from here (and I don't care if you came to visit 1 time either or any of your experiences with Brooklyn ppl). It's the same thing as in California ppl may say "Wuddup dude?" or in Chicago ppl say "Wuddup joe?" or how many black ppl say "Wuddup nigg*?" or how Australian ppl say "good day mate"..Yes it is a geographical thing because the way I speak or my NY accent is in no comparison to say a person in Boston or a person in middle America with a heavy southern accent. Take it however you like it I really don't care but I'm not gonna argue about the way I speak cause now this is getting a lil ridiculous. You are bored and just looking for arguments now.. I'm over it "dude" but I must admit this is now becoming very entertaining especially for a person of your stature and reputation on this forum site with 15k posts... If I had 15k posts Idk if I would even have time to train or work. Good for you though; you are the king of AnabolicMinds.com
    I'm not sure if you can understand this but he wasnt referring to you saying bro he was referring to your misguided parroting of false info and broscience explanations for why you are right with no acceptance of the opinions of those with more experience than you as a "bro mentality"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim2542

    I'm not sure if you can understand this but he wasnt referring to you saying bro he was referring to your misguided parroting of false info and broscience explanations for why you are right with no acceptance of the opinions of those with more experience than you as a "bro mentality"
    I didn't give any false info. In this forum topic all I said is that you should not neglect exercises. Just because it didn't work for youdoesn't mean it is a bad exercise... I really wish not to continue. This is annoying
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588

    I didn't give any false info. In this forum topic all I said is that you should not neglect exercises. Just because it didn't work for TOU doesn't mean it is a ad exercise... I really wish not to continue. This is annoying
    I don't have a particular opinion on the topic of 21s for muscle growth but i was referring to more than just this particular topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim2542

    I don't have a particular opinion on the topic of 21s for muscle growth but i was referring to more than just this particular topic.
    For example using a slin pin for Testosterone injections? Slin pins are meant for water based/SubQ injections. Have a fun TIME drawing and injecting Test in you. Keyword "Time" as in you are gonna be there with a needle inside you for like 5 mins lol.. Anything is possible I'm sure but why the hell would you use a slin pin for Test? I used a small needle once and I had a nasty bump on my glute for a week. I used a longer needle and got deeper and I no longer have a problem. Just get yourself a 5/8 and inject in your delt if you scared of bigger sized needles... Ppl on that forum topic agred with me when it came to the size of the needle. No false info here my friend
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    For example using a slin pin for Testosterone injections? Slin pins are meant for water based/SubQ injections. Have a fun TIME drawing and injecting Test in you. Keyword "Time" as in you are gonna be there with a needle inside you for like 5 mins lol.. Anything is possible I'm sure but why the hell would you use a slin pin for Test? Just get yourself a 5/8 if you scared of bigger sized needles... Ppl on that forum topic agred with me when it came to the size of the needle. No false info here my friend
    You need to quit talking out of your ass here. It does not take more than 15s to inject 1cc through a slin pin. As for the bolded section, Ad Populum. That is just a further example of the bro mentality that I was speaking about earlier in the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Not long enough and won't get obsorbed. I use 1" in my quad, 1.5" in my glute and IF I injected in my shoulder I would use 5/8"
    This is completely false information coming from you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    You need to quit talking out of your ass here. It does not take more than 15s to inject 1cc through a slin pin. As for the bolded section, Ad Populum. That is just a further example of the bro mentality that I was speaking about earlier in the thread.

    This is completely false information coming from you.
    Record that 15s of your injection and PM me for my email address. I'd love to see it for myself.. Like I said I used a short needle when i 1st started cycling once and I had a nasty bump. Once I used a longer needle I was perfectly fine. And I also just don't do Test. I stack either deca or tren so a slin pin would be too small for me anyways
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Record that 15s of your injection and PM me for my email address. I'd love to see it for myself.. Like I said I used a short needle when i 1st started cycling once and I had a nasty bump. Once I used a longer needle I was perfectly fine. And I also just don't do Test. I stack either deca or tren so a slin pin would be too small for me anyways
    Care to address the other part or are you going to continue to selectively choose your replies to overlook your misinformation?
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