21s for huge growth or just a pump?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Ofcourse I understand the concept of humor. But ppl might read that and stop doing the exercise juat because one of the most respected guys in the strength training world says so. Ppl might get the wrong impression especially the young kids who come onto these forums just getting started on working out and looking towards advice. Thats like me who is an avid weight lifter/bodybuilder not having an open mind and says that Yoga is dumb and no1 should everso do it cuz its for Wussy's or girls. Everything works; whether you use machines, free weights, other types of training or philosophies. Everything in terms of exercise is positive and will help any1 out depending on their goals in life... 21s is great to do just to shock your bi's from doing regular straight sets. That's all I am saying
    Tate's opinion>>>>>yours

    If someone is new, then the last thing they should be worrying about is the size of their biceps. Yes, the article was written sardonically, but that does not make it invalid. You must have missed the opening disclaimer as well.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys



  2. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588
    I do 21s once a month just to shock myself from traditional straight sets. Pump = increased nutrient rich blood flow into the muscle.

    Another great alternative to shock your body is FST-7 (Fascia Stretch Training 7)... 7 sets with 30 sec rest for small muscle groups and 40 sec rest for larger muscle groups
    Agree with FST-7. Great to use as last set to really force the pump. I suggest keeping heavy, wide grip bar curls, then hammers or regular DB curls. On your last exercise use preacher machine for the 7 sets of 12 reps with the 30-second rest. Awesome pump! Good luck!
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by SLW2 View Post
    Here is an article by Dave Tate on the subject of 21's http://train.elitefts.com/exercises-.../21s-for-guns/
    Great find.
    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    This guy Dave Tate sounds like a douche meat head. I don't think there is anything wrong w/ doing 21s once a month just to shock your bi's into doing something different. Former Mr. Olympia Ronnie Coleman was an avid user in 21s for barbell curls and actually did it on a week to week basis. Current Mr. O Phil Heath also does 21s for barbell curls. It's not a wussy exercise like Dave Tate is saying. It's just something different. It's not always about weight. Intensity and muscle confusion is a great theory to live by when working out
    You are a complete tool. Please stop posting advice on Anabolic Minds for a year, and spend your time listening instead.
    Check your form: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/190675-proper-techniques.html
    Log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/235436-tossing-weight-torobestia.html

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    Great find.

    You are a complete tool. Please stop posting advice on Anabolic Minds for a year, and spend your time listening instead.
    "great find" - yeah there was alot of useful info in that find

    I am not a tool. I graduated with a BA in Physical Education and I am currently persuing my Masters Degree in Exercise Science. What about you?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    "great find" - yeah there was alot of useful info in that find

    I am not a tool. I graduated with a BA in Physical Education and I am currently persuing my Masters Degree in Exercise Science. What about you?
    Yet you've never heard of Dave Tate. In all honesty, the periodization and training theory that is taught in most schools is complete crap based upon the Western model, which is completely flawed.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

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  6. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    "great find" - yeah there was alot of useful info in that find

    I am not a tool. I graduated with a BA in Physical Education and I am currently persuing my Masters Degree in Exercise Science. What about you?
    BS in Biology and BS in Chemistry from a top 20 school. What other literary penis comparisons do you wish to make?
    Check your form: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/190675-proper-techniques.html
    Log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/235436-tossing-weight-torobestia.html

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    BS in Biology and BS in Chemistry from a top 20 school. What other literary penis comparisons do you wish to make?
    Win

  8. Dude this thread got way too serious LOL. Were talking about 21s here not politics LOL.

  9. The strength guys (Dave Tate, etc) seems to dislike anything that's done solely for cosmetic reasons... to the point of being very condescending. Never understood why these people have such attitudes. Everyone has different goals... doesn't make them 'stupid' as Dave is trying to paint it.

    Training heavy is good, but I think it's volume w/progressive load that has the most effect on muscle growth.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    The strength guys (Dave Tate, etc) seems to dislike anything that's done solely for cosmetic reasons... to the point of being very condescending. Never understood why these people have such attitudes. Everyone has different goals... doesn't make them 'stupid' as Dave is trying to paint it.

    Training heavy is good, but I think it's volume w/progressive load that has the most effect on muscle growth.
    The problem is 21s won't do anything meaningful for muscle growth.

    I think what you see from people like Dave are an aversion to the obsessive culture of bench and curl guys (think Jersey Shore). This is not anything against cosmeticism, especially considering how several guys at EFS are actually competing bodybuilders now. It's about efficacy, and 21s are a total waste of time and energy. The work you do is so low on the totem pole during 21s that you're training stamina and endurance more than hypertrophy. The question is why do something that gets you 5% there instead of something that gets you 20% there? Your answer?

    And your second statement needs some fixing. It's progression (intensity x reps x sets x time) x recovery (sleep + nutrition + etc) x frequency = results.
    Check your form: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/190675-proper-techniques.html
    Log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/235436-tossing-weight-torobestia.html

  11. Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more View Post
    Dude this thread got way too serious LOL. Were talking about 21s here not politics LOL.
    Agreed. I don't really want this to become a personality contest. It's simply the audacity and ignorance by VS in berating a real expert's opinion that was being called into question, which coincides with him being one of the few people pushing 21s (vs. the other author suggesting against this).
    Check your form: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/190675-proper-techniques.html
    Log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/235436-tossing-weight-torobestia.html

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    BS in Biology and BS in Chemistry from a top 20 school. What other literary penis comparisons do you wish to make?
    Props on your education. You know about theories of evolution and chemical compounds. But my question is should we neglect an exercise based on an opinion on 1 guy? I believe that every exercise works. It may not work for every1 but that's why you go about trial an error. An exercise that I may like may not work best for you but it does not mean it is bad. Do you comprehend?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I do 21s once a month just to shock myself from traditional straight sets. Pump = increased nutrient rich blood flow into the muscle.

    Another great alternative to shock your body is FST-7 (Fascia Stretch Training 7)... 7 sets with 30 sec rest for small muscle groups and 40 sec rest for larger muscle groups
    Care to provide some evidence for this or that a pump has any bearing on hypertrophy?
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  14. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Care to provide some evidence for this or that a pump has any bearing on hypertrophy?
    I never said a pump = hypertrophy... Why don't you read again. I said that a pump brings nutrient rich blood into the muscles

  15. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I never said a pump = hypertrophy... Why don't you read again. I said that a pump brings nutrient rich blood into the muscles
    Where's your evidence for the first part? Why don't you read again...
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  16. Man, did this thread turn into one big piece of s.hit

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Where's your evidence for the first part? Why don't you read again...
    Well here is an article that explains a lil bit of both... FST7 is a new training principle from Hany Rambod so you can take it any way you like it. It's a routine based on ppl who like high volume training.. He also explains about the "pump"... I read up on FST7 and gave it a shot and have been doing it for a year now and has seen great improvements.. Sometimes it's ok to go outside the box and try something new. You never know unless you try it out and not be ignorant

  18. DC training. Nuff said lol

    Seriously, why so serious?
    Psalms 62:1-62:2

  19. As heavy as you can (not maxxing) for as many reps as you can.
    Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}
    Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.

  20. And anyone who uses the term 'pump' in reference to training is by definition a douche

  21. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Well here is an article that explains a lil bit of both... FST7 is a new training principle from Hany Rambod so you can take it any way you like it. It's a routine based on ppl who like high volume training.. He also explains about the "pump"... I read up on FST7 and gave it a shot and have been doing it for a year now and has seen great improvements.. Sometimes it's ok to go outside the box and try something new. You never know unless you try it out and not be ignorant
    Pumps do not mean a thing to growth. To borrow from a friend on the topic (Zir):

    "The pump is due to increased pressure in the vessels forcing fluid out into the interstitial space (the area outside of the muscle cells and blood vessels). As a result of this high pressure, some capillaries may actually be compressed and a lack of blood flow will be delivered. In addition, the high pressure reduces nutrient exchange and waste product removal. Which, in terms of signalling hypertrophy, is not an overall bad thing (see KATSU training). The pump, can however, reduce recovery due to fluid not reentering the system and a build up of inflammatory chemicals, which is one of the main reasons for performing a warm down and even cryotherapy (icing, ice baths, contrast showers, etc.) post workout."

    Another thing to consider is this: in order to send more blood to one area, you have to reduce the amount in another and it's usually from the digestive tract. This results not only in the aforementioned scenario, but in also slowing down the digestive process and delivering nutrients.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  22. i say both!

  23. Quote Originally Posted by napalm
    And anyone who uses the term 'pump' in reference to training is by definition a douche
    I guess Arnold Schwarzenegger is riding on the douche train

  24. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588

    I guess Arnold Schwarzenegger is riding on the douche train
    I think the strength and conditioning world has learned a little about the training process since the 70's.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by napalm

    I think the strength and conditioning world has learned a little about the training process since the 70's.
    Yes it did but his physique is timeless and ppl still strive to look like him... He was ahead of his time and if he was taking the amount of gear these new guys are taking I bet he would tower over all of them
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