21s for huge growth or just a pump?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    "great find" - yeah there was alot of useful info in that find

    I am not a tool. I graduated with a BA in Physical Education and I am currently persuing my Masters Degree in Exercise Science. What about you?
    BS in Biology and BS in Chemistry from a top 20 school. What other literary penis comparisons do you wish to make?
    Check your form: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/190675-proper-techniques.html
    Log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/235436-tossing-weight-torobestia.html


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    BS in Biology and BS in Chemistry from a top 20 school. What other literary penis comparisons do you wish to make?
    Win
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  3. Dude this thread got way too serious LOL. Were talking about 21s here not politics LOL.

  4. The strength guys (Dave Tate, etc) seems to dislike anything that's done solely for cosmetic reasons... to the point of being very condescending. Never understood why these people have such attitudes. Everyone has different goals... doesn't make them 'stupid' as Dave is trying to paint it.

    Training heavy is good, but I think it's volume w/progressive load that has the most effect on muscle growth.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    The strength guys (Dave Tate, etc) seems to dislike anything that's done solely for cosmetic reasons... to the point of being very condescending. Never understood why these people have such attitudes. Everyone has different goals... doesn't make them 'stupid' as Dave is trying to paint it.

    Training heavy is good, but I think it's volume w/progressive load that has the most effect on muscle growth.
    The problem is 21s won't do anything meaningful for muscle growth.

    I think what you see from people like Dave are an aversion to the obsessive culture of bench and curl guys (think Jersey Shore). This is not anything against cosmeticism, especially considering how several guys at EFS are actually competing bodybuilders now. It's about efficacy, and 21s are a total waste of time and energy. The work you do is so low on the totem pole during 21s that you're training stamina and endurance more than hypertrophy. The question is why do something that gets you 5% there instead of something that gets you 20% there? Your answer?

    And your second statement needs some fixing. It's progression (intensity x reps x sets x time) x recovery (sleep + nutrition + etc) x frequency = results.
    Check your form: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/190675-proper-techniques.html
    Log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/235436-tossing-weight-torobestia.html
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more View Post
    Dude this thread got way too serious LOL. Were talking about 21s here not politics LOL.
    Agreed. I don't really want this to become a personality contest. It's simply the audacity and ignorance by VS in berating a real expert's opinion that was being called into question, which coincides with him being one of the few people pushing 21s (vs. the other author suggesting against this).
    Check your form: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/190675-proper-techniques.html
    Log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/235436-tossing-weight-torobestia.html

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    BS in Biology and BS in Chemistry from a top 20 school. What other literary penis comparisons do you wish to make?
    Props on your education. You know about theories of evolution and chemical compounds. But my question is should we neglect an exercise based on an opinion on 1 guy? I believe that every exercise works. It may not work for every1 but that's why you go about trial an error. An exercise that I may like may not work best for you but it does not mean it is bad. Do you comprehend?

  8. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I do 21s once a month just to shock myself from traditional straight sets. Pump = increased nutrient rich blood flow into the muscle.

    Another great alternative to shock your body is FST-7 (Fascia Stretch Training 7)... 7 sets with 30 sec rest for small muscle groups and 40 sec rest for larger muscle groups
    Care to provide some evidence for this or that a pump has any bearing on hypertrophy?
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  9. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Care to provide some evidence for this or that a pump has any bearing on hypertrophy?
    I never said a pump = hypertrophy... Why don't you read again. I said that a pump brings nutrient rich blood into the muscles

  10. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I never said a pump = hypertrophy... Why don't you read again. I said that a pump brings nutrient rich blood into the muscles
    Where's your evidence for the first part? Why don't you read again...
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  11. Man, did this thread turn into one big piece of s.hit

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Where's your evidence for the first part? Why don't you read again...
    Well here is an article that explains a lil bit of both... FST7 is a new training principle from Hany Rambod so you can take it any way you like it. It's a routine based on ppl who like high volume training.. He also explains about the "pump"... I read up on FST7 and gave it a shot and have been doing it for a year now and has seen great improvements.. Sometimes it's ok to go outside the box and try something new. You never know unless you try it out and not be ignorant

  13. DC training. Nuff said lol

    Seriously, why so serious?
    Psalms 62:1-62:2

  14. As heavy as you can (not maxxing) for as many reps as you can.
    Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}
    Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.

  15. And anyone who uses the term 'pump' in reference to training is by definition a douche

  16. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Well here is an article that explains a lil bit of both... FST7 is a new training principle from Hany Rambod so you can take it any way you like it. It's a routine based on ppl who like high volume training.. He also explains about the "pump"... I read up on FST7 and gave it a shot and have been doing it for a year now and has seen great improvements.. Sometimes it's ok to go outside the box and try something new. You never know unless you try it out and not be ignorant
    Pumps do not mean a thing to growth. To borrow from a friend on the topic (Zir):

    "The pump is due to increased pressure in the vessels forcing fluid out into the interstitial space (the area outside of the muscle cells and blood vessels). As a result of this high pressure, some capillaries may actually be compressed and a lack of blood flow will be delivered. In addition, the high pressure reduces nutrient exchange and waste product removal. Which, in terms of signalling hypertrophy, is not an overall bad thing (see KATSU training). The pump, can however, reduce recovery due to fluid not reentering the system and a build up of inflammatory chemicals, which is one of the main reasons for performing a warm down and even cryotherapy (icing, ice baths, contrast showers, etc.) post workout."

    Another thing to consider is this: in order to send more blood to one area, you have to reduce the amount in another and it's usually from the digestive tract. This results not only in the aforementioned scenario, but in also slowing down the digestive process and delivering nutrients.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  17. i say both!

  18. Quote Originally Posted by napalm
    And anyone who uses the term 'pump' in reference to training is by definition a douche
    I guess Arnold Schwarzenegger is riding on the douche train

  19. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588

    I guess Arnold Schwarzenegger is riding on the douche train
    I think the strength and conditioning world has learned a little about the training process since the 70's.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by napalm

    I think the strength and conditioning world has learned a little about the training process since the 70's.
    Yes it did but his physique is timeless and ppl still strive to look like him... He was ahead of his time and if he was taking the amount of gear these new guys are taking I bet he would tower over all of them

  21. So you devalue Tate's opinion because you disagree, but value Arnold's opinion because you agree? A little consistency in your argument would help.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  22. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja
    So you devalue Tate's opinion because you disagree, but value Arnold's opinion because you agree? A little consistency in your argument would help.
    I never said that but in terms that 21s are for "wussys" I will devalue that opinion since he provided no educated reason other than sounding like an average joe on the forums with bro-science. My argument issssss we should always try out new exercises and there isn't anything wrong with doing 21s once and a while just to switch things up from normal traditional sets. Tate is obviously all about strength and conditioning and not much on bodybuilding and believe me I do stick to basic movements such as barbell curls, bench press, shoulder press, dead lifts and squats because the basic movements work. But it does not hurt to throw in different movements once and a while

  23. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I never said that. My argument issssss we should always try out new exercises and there isn't anything wrong with doing 21s once and a while just to switch things up from normal traditional sets. Tate is obviously all about strength and conditioning and not much on bodybuilding and believe me I do stick to basic movements such as barbell curls, bench press, shoulder press, dead lifts and squats because the basic movements work. But it does not hurt to throw in different movements once and a while
    You insulted Tate and defended Arnold. How is that not what you said and you really need to stop talking about Tate since you obviously have no clue about him. In fact, you really should just stop posting altogether and spend more time learning.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  24. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    You insulted Tate and defended Arnold. How is that not what you said and you really need to stop talking about Tate since you obviously have no clue about him. In fact, you really should just stop posting altogether and spend more time learning.
    Whatever you believe in is fine with you. We are 2 different ppl who obviously believe in 2 different training styles. I respect your opinion so how about you respect mine. Are you mad because I dont agree with you or something? And are you really mad because I thought Tates post was not educated for a man of his stature? Are you a close personal friend of his that you arguing for about 2 days with me now? What is he in relation to you? I said nothing wrong other than you should not neglect exercises because it's good to change things up. Do you comprehend what I am saying? I don't have to train the way you do and you don't have to train the way I do. I'm concerned about my body and how I look and competing in NPC bodybuilding shows. I'm 5'8" 230lbs and I have nothing to prove to you or any1. I'm not a powerlifter I bodybuild and yes I have much respect for those guys but that's not my game.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Whatever you believe in is fine with you. We are 2 different ppl who obviously believe in 2 different training styles. I respect your opinion so how about you respect mine. Are you mad because I dont agree with you or something? And are you really mad because I thought Tates post was not educated for a man of his stature? Are you a close personal friend of his that you arguing for about 2 days with me now? What is he in relation to you? I said nothing wrong other than you should not neglect exercises because it's good to change things up. Do you comprehend what I am saying? I don't have to train the way you do and you don't have to train the way I do. I'm concerned about my body and how I look and competing in NPC bodybuilding shows. I'm 5'8" 230lbs and I have nothing to prove to you or any1. I'm not a powerlifter I bodybuild and yes I have much respect for those guys but that's not my game.
    You're avoiding again. You made a statement regarding the pump and have nothing to back up that claim. Meanwhile, you got all butthurt over a piece that was obviously tongue in cheek and insulted someone that I have great respect for and I have learned a great deal from in the past. I honestly could care less about your opinion as many of your posts are wrong (e.g. test injected with a slin pin will not be absorbed) and you've shown that you are not credible. Kinda ironic that you threw out the meathead label at Tate, yet you exhibit many of the classic traits of someone that most would classify as a "meathead."
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  26. Dude I injected Test with a short needle and I got a bump for like a week. I would never try to use a slin pin.. Obviously the oil is going to be inside you but I would never inject with that short of a needle... And I would have to say if we look at that forum post majority agreed with me when it comes to size

  27. Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more View Post
    So I started doing 21s again recently and for couple weeks thought i was getting great growth. But recently I'm starting to doubt my renewed love them. I feel like I'm just kinda spinning my wheels and I need to go back to my traditional heavey straight bar curls in the 6-12 range. My current bicep routine goes

    DB curl 3 x 10
    Hammer DB 3 x 10
    21s ez bar 3 sets
    21's are effective mainly because of the TUT (time under tension). You can increase overload through increased TUT (tempo change), increase in intensity, volume, decrease in the rest between sets. 21's allow you to focus more on the TUT, which can be a great tool for hypertrophy enhancement but at the same time will give you a huge pump. I like to use them as a tool, but never a staple.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS

  28. Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Dude I injected Test with a short needle and I got a bump for like a week. I would never try to use a slin pin.. Obviously the oil is going to be inside you but I would never inject with that short of a needle... And I would have to say if we look at that forum post majority agreed with me when it comes to size
    SubQ injections are used by many HRT doctors and has peer-reviewed data to support its use. I'd say that carries a bit more weight than the average forum "bro" and you have many people, such as yourself, that follow what has been repeated as gospel without any real reasoning behind it.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  29. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    SubQ injections are used by many HRT doctors and has peer-reviewed data to support its use. I'd say that carries a bit more weight than the average forum "bro" and you have many people, such as yourself, that follow what has been repeated as gospel without any real reasoning behind it.
    I've been reading a little bit on this back and forth and I was a little confused until I saw his avatar, if he's from that Animal Pak forum, which is probably where he got his avatar from, there's no use in even arguing with him. They all think a pump should be the prime focus of everyones training and still think that "high reps tone".
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS

  30. lol who would argue with Dave Tate? Do you even know who he is? He's one of, if not the smartest exercise guru on the planet.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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