Confused, baffled with volume and rep range

[chedapalooza]

So in attempt to gain some mass, I switched from high volume and intensity workouts using 4-5 sets of 6-15 reps pyramid style like 10,8,6,15 for example. I am currently on my third week of doing x rep style workouts where most lifts have only 2 work sets of 7-9 reps +x rep partials...some lifts (usually first exercise of muscle group) gets two warmup sets+2 work sets. Drop sets are utilized as well

My confusion lies within the fact that I have been doing less cardio, eating more carbs, and lifting heavier for lower reps, yet I have gotten smaller everywhere... I'm using most of the same lifts, just different sets/reps. I really thought tbis program would put on somesize... But I hAve shrank. Any ideas? Aside from "eat more" bcmu diet is fine... I really feel the workouts aren't challenging enough even though they are by very reputable people n backed by research. I am getting stronger, but not bigger... Primarily I noticed shoulders and traps substantially smaller, back is ok'ish, chest ok, arms not doing well. Legs ok

 

[chedapalooza]

This is the routine

Mondays- Quads, Chest, Back, Calves, Abs
one minute rest between work sets, 30 seconds rest between warm up sets

pre workout cardio- 5 minute run+15 minutes HIIT on treadmill+5 min incline walking
leg presses- 2 warm up sets single leg+ regular 2x15 (x reps at mid contraction point on final set)
leg extensions- 2x15 (final set drop set for 5 reps+ x reps)
DB sumo squats on two benches- 2x15
Single leg extensions-1x15+x reps
seated calf raises- 2 warm up sets+ 2x20 + x reps
standing calf raises- 2x10 (final set drop set x5)
chest dips- 2 sets x body weight, weighted 2x7-9 + x reps
flat bench cable flys- 2x7 (final set drop set of 5)
incline db press- 2x7-9+ xreps
incline db flyes- 2x7 (final set drop set x5)
wide grip pull ups- 2x max x bodyweight ( i added these)
v handle lat pulldowns- 2x7-9 +x reps
db pullovers- 3x12 (original work out only has 1 set.. not enough)
underhand grip pull downs- 2x7 (final set drop set x5)
one arm db rows- 2x7-9 +x reps
bent over laterals straight arm- 2x7 (final set drop x5)
reverse hyperextensions- 2x25 (added these)
cable upright rows- 2x7-9 + x reps
db shrugs- 2x7 + drop set x5 (i added these)
Pinwheel curls - 2x7-9 +x reps
Reverse tri pushdown 2x7-9 +x reps
db forearm work
Abs- leg raises 3 sets of 20 (slow controlled and bring hips off floor at top), swiss ball pikes 3 sets of 20, weighted decline crunches 3 sets 20, bent over stick twists 2 sets 25 each side) 30 seconds rest between abs sets
post workout cardio- 10-15 minutes low intensity steady state cardio on ellipt or tread

Tuesday- low intensity cardio 45-50 minutes or off

Wednesday- Hams, Delts, Bi's, Tri's, Abs
30 seconds rest between warm up sets and abs, 1 min rest between work sets
pre workout cardio- 5 minute run+15 minutes HIIT on treadmill+5 min incline walking

Reverse Lunges with barbell- 2 warm up sets+2x12
leg curls- 2x15+final set drop set x5+x reps
hyperextensions- 1 set weighted x10, 1 set bodyweight x 25
Single leg curls -1x15+x reps
db shoulder press- 2 warmup+ 2x7-9 + x reps
incline one arm db laterals- 2x7-9 +x reps
db upright rows- 2x7 final set drop set x5+x reps
over head db flys (palms forward)- 2x7-9 +x reps (i added these)
flat bench db presses (arms close to sides, palms facing in)-2 warm up+ 2x7-9+x reps
over head db extensions- 2 warmup+ 2x7-9
db kickbacks- 2x7 final set drop x5
chinups- 2x bodyweight x max (i added these)
under hand chins ups- 2x7-9 weighted + x reps
Bb curls 2x7 (drop to 5 final set)
incline db curls- 1 warm up+ 2x7-9 + x reps
concentration curls- 2x7, final set drop x5
db forearms work
abs-weighted swiss ball crunch 2x20, standing cable crunches 2x20, overhead weighed side bends 3x12, hyperextension bench side bends 3x15, standing cable twists 3x15, planks 2x 1 minute
post workout cardio- low inesnsity steady state 10-15 mins

Thursday- low intensity cardio 45-50 minutes

Friday- full body
pre workout cardio- 5 minute run+15 minutes HIIT on treadmill+5 min incline walking

deadlifts- 2 warmup+ 2x8-10 (im used to doing 5-6 work sets of deadlift)
hyperextensions- 2x25 x bodyweight
behind neck lat pulldowns- 2 warmup+ 2x7 final set drop x5 (subbed these)
straight arm lat pulldowns- 2x7-9 +x reps
rope attach lat pulldowns- 2x7 final drop x5
straight bar cable rows- 2x7-9 +x reps
facepulls- 2x7 final drop x5
smith machine press to neck, wide grip- 2 warmup+ 2x7-9 +x reps
machine flys- 2x7 final set dropx5
incline db press- 2x7-9 +xreps
Cable crossovers -2x7-9 + static hold
behind neck bb press- 2 warmup+ 2x7-9 +x reps
single arm cable upright rows- 2x7 final set dropx5+x reps
Cable lateral raises -2x7 final set dropx5
front cable raises- 2x7 final set dropx5 (added these)
v handle tricep pushdowns- 2x7 final drop x5
straight bar cable curls- 2x7 final drop x5
abductor machine work (added, dont have at my school gym) 4 sets of 20 increasing weight, 5th set x 20 drops weight
glute machine (added, dont have at my school gym) 2x15 each leg
forearm bb work
abs- hanging leg raise- 3x20, reverse crunches 3x15, rope cable crunches 3x20, ab machine 3x20, 50 bicycle crunches, side planksx1 min each side
post workout cardio steady state low intensity 10-15 minutes

 

[chedapalooza]

Bump

 

[fadi]

They are reputable because they are by Ironman Magazine that is all. Ironman found a way to sell more than just supplements. They decided to come up with their own workout programs and market the heck out of it in their magazine.

 

[Kekkuk]

It's about muscle fibers. The more weight, the more fibers engage. The lower weights/higher reps 'pick' on only a few fibers. Therefore more damage is done = more growth. That's put real simply.
I'm no expert though.

 

[rsnake21]

Sounds like your overtraining to me jmo

 

[Kekkuk]

Your previous workout would be better for mass.

 

[chedapalooza]

Sounds like your overtraining to me jmo

Yea but I was growing more doing basically double the work. Same amount of exercises, double the sets!

 

[rsnake21]

Yea idk if something works for u bro stick to that no need to switch if your making progress

 

[chedapalooza]

Yea idk if something works for u bro stick to that no need to switch if your making progress

Yea I wanted to lower my intensity n frequency bc I was so burnt out though. And once it comes time to cut, I'd have no room to increase intensity from where I was..

 

[AaronJP1]

I never really had a huge focus on lifting heavy, heavy.

I would go in and do my 8-10 reps, 3-4 sets...
Then I was hearing people say light weight high reps. Can't say that's legit either just yet.

I think heavy weights should build mass once I do that and have a good amount of mass you can dip to lights weights.

Either way every1 is different just has to stress the muscle.

 

[chedapalooza]

I never really had a huge focus on lifting heavy, heavy.

I would go in and do my 8-10 reps, 3-4 sets...
Then I was hearing people say light weight high reps. Can't say that's legit either just yet.

I think heavy weights should build mass once I do that and have a good amount of mass you can dip to lights weights.

Either way every1 is different just has to stress the muscle.

Yea.. The best results I ever had came from 20,20,6,6 rep scheme.. 20s opened up the muscle n let the blood in, 6 builds it n gets strength up, super pumped after a workout of those. 10,8,6,15 or 15,10,8,6 is great too. I just got burnt out doing 2 hour lifts four days a week for 2-3 Years.

 

[AaronJP1]

They say to mix high and low...
Either way I'm going to try heavy.

 

[Kekkuk]

How about you keep the workout you have now and change the body part/day? For instance, on chest day do triceps...

 

[chedapalooza]

How about you keep the workout you have now and change the body part/day? For instance, on chest day do triceps...

Bc it's called direct/indirect. Meaning when u hit chest, you indirectly hit tris, and when u hit tris (cg benches) you indirectly hit chest, thus hitting each muscle twice per week.. Thsts how they Layed it out.. I think it just comes down to that I'm not stimulating the muscles enough.. Need some higher reps to expand n tear the fibers..

 

[AaronJP1]

Bc it's called direct/indirect. Meaning when u hit chest, you indirectly hit tris, and when u hit tris (cg benches) you indirectly hit chest, thus hitting each muscle twice per week.. Thsts how they Layed it out.. I think it just comes down to that I'm not stimulating the muscles enough.. Need some higher reps to expand n tear the fibers..

Higher reps should do it, but remember when u go heavy you get stronger and when u get stronger you can move more weight, and the once heavy weight is not lighter weight, that's why it kinda makes sense to build strength first.
Trust me if I can move heavy weight u won't look small.

 

[Kekkuk]

Direct/indirect...learn something everyday.
I lift heavy. So when I cut (the high rep stuff sucks) I go from push/pull-split-type-workouts to super sets, d/i.

 

[AaronJP1]

U guys every try a full body 3 times a week with about 3 sets and 3 exercises on bigger muscles and 2-3 on smaller groups?

I hear it's great for novice people and people even at an intermediate level.
Throw in some traps and AB crunches as well. Get it all done in under 1 hour & that's including 20 minute of cardio & let's say 5 minutes on a bike to warm up.
When I tried it b4 I couldn't stick to it, buy I think that's because I was trying to do more reps/sets than what the program allowed for. I've started it again today. Should help build muscle and cardio/fast pace (hour for everything) should help ya cut fat as well.

 

[chedapalooza]

U guys every try a full body 3 times a week with about 3 sets and 3 exercises on bigger muscles and 2-3 on smaller groups?

I hear it's great for novice people and people even at an intermediate level.
Throw in some traps and AB crunches as well. Get it all done in under 1 hour & that's including 20 minute of cardio & let's say 5 minutes on a bike to warm up.
When I tried it b4 I couldn't stick to it, buy I think that's because I was trying to do more reps/sets than what the program allowed for. I've started it again today. Should help build muscle and cardio/fast pace (hour for everything) should help ya cut fat as well.

Yes. I had great results supersetting full body workouts. I was doing very high volume. 2-3 lifts for shoulders, chest back @4 sets each. And 2 lifts for bis tris at 2 sets each... I got bigger and
More defined. Again, burnout factor was rough...

 

[rsnake21]

I went back to the basics bros. 3 sets 10 reps 3 exercises per muscle group and every week I add poundage

 

[Kekkuk]

I do something like that, circuit work with plyometrics, bags, and isometrics. Never tried it with my lifts.
I think I'd be sore too much if I did that. I'll give it a shot next cut--**** being productive at work! Lol

 

[AaronJP1]

Here's a pic of the routine.

 

[AaronJP1]

Yes. I had great results supersetting full body workouts. I was doing very high volume. 2-3 lifts for shoulders, chest back @4 sets each. And 2 lifts for bis tris at 2 sets each... I got bigger and
More defined. Again, burnout factor was rough...

Glad to hear that worked. U was doing that all in 1 session correct?
I posted the routine above, seems it's bit different from what you were doing (4 chest exercises: how many sets?), maybe high volume was the problem should've went more on the heavy side....

 

[chedapalooza]

Glad to hear that worked. U was doing that all in 1 session correct?
I posted the routine above, seems it's bit different from what you were doing (4 chest exercises: how many sets?), maybe high volume was the problem should've went more on the heavy side....

O wow that's super basic. I feel like that would do nothing for me...

Wide lat pd and incline db press
Arnold press and v lat pd
Bb row and db laterals
Incline flys and underhand pullups
Rear dealt flyes and pullovers
Zottman curls and straight bar tri pd
Single c able curl and single overhead db ext

Those are super sets blank and blank. Each super set is 4 sets.
That is one day, plus abs. Leg works is included on other days, plus different exercises for each muscle. Plus cardio ... It's a lot but it's the only way o feel like I've done anything :/

 

[AaronJP1]

O wow that's super basic. I feel like that would do nothing for me...

Wide lat pd and incline db press
Arnold press and v lat pd
Bb row and db laterals
Incline flys and underhand pullups
Rear dealt flyes and pullovers
Zottman curls and straight bar tri pd
Single c able curl and single overhead db ext

Those are super sets blank and blank. Each super set is 4 sets.
That is one day, plus abs. Leg works is included on other days, plus different exercises for each muscle. Plus cardio ... It's a lot but it's the only way o feel like I've done anything :/

It is but u tweak with ya own sets & reps

 

[Newtonselite]

O wow that's super basic. I feel like that would do nothing for me...

Wide lat pd and incline db press
Arnold press and v lat pd
Bb row and db laterals
Incline flys and underhand pullups
Rear dealt flyes and pullovers
Zottman curls and straight bar tri pd
Single c able curl and single overhead db ext

Those are super sets blank and blank. Each super set is 4 sets.
That is one day, plus abs. Leg works is included on other days, plus different exercises for each muscle. Plus cardio ... It's a lot but it's the only way o feel like I've done anything :/

Super basic is where its at man!! The routine JP posted up you could add in some extras if you compete to get that stage package ect.
If you enjoy mixing rep ranges and stuff like that P/RR/S program is great i reckon. Pretty much Micro periodization. Ive currently been running dorian yates blood n guts 6 week trainer program and man am i sore, thats another solid option to look into!

 

[chedapalooza]

Thanks newtons.. Where can I find thst Yates wo. I'm familiar w p/rr/s I like it

 

[Newtonselite]

im gonna make separate thread now, gimme 5 mins ill post the vids up!!

 

[chedapalooza]

im gonna make separate thread now, gimme 5 mins ill post the vids up!!

K I found it on bb.com

Looks really simple too :/

1-2 warm up, 1 work set... Basic movements again

 

[Newtonselite]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/training-forum/195516-dorian-yates-blood.html#post3262426 - Yea the one from bb.com man thats it!

As i said Ched the basics are king! Plus if you haven't been back to just the basics for awhile, doing them may give you some great gains!

 

[AaronJP1]

I think if you run that routine and go heavy and keep moving you should be able to ellict some gains what cha think newton?

Is there any tweaks you put on that routine Newton? More sets/reps anywhere?

 

[AaronJP1]

Super basic is where its at man!! The routine JP posted up you could add in some extras if you compete to get that stage package ect.
If you enjoy mixing rep ranges and stuff like that P/RR/S program is great i reckon. Pretty much Micro periodization. Ive currently been running dorian yates blood n guts 6 week trainer program and man am i sore, thats another solid option to look into!

This...
I got a 4 day split I'm going to be running pretty soon...

 

[Newtonselite]

I think if you run that routine and go heavy and keep moving you should be able to ellict some gains what cha think newton?

Is there any tweaks you put on that routine Newton? More sets/reps anywhere?

depends on cheds current time lifting plus his end goals. I normally only really advocate the good ol FB routines to people who seem to be pure rank beginers which you can normally pick up just by the post they make. Then you give them the easy answer of follow SS/5X5/TBT ect ect ect The type of people that have never really been all that athletic, and maybe sit around playing xbox or ps all there lives. Basically you just want them to get familiar with the bar the gym and the movements that need to be executed.

But theres a lot of begginers out there that have a general idea of the gym that are pretty athletic and naturally fit and strong that would be more then ready for doing a split or sorts. I really think the whole do a FB routine for 6 months get your strength up ect has all blown out of proportion. You get a lot of bb forum newbies that get given advice by other FB routine pushers, then they think theve grasped the concept and push it themselves and on it goes.

(Sorry going off on a lil tangent here, venting hahaha)

The program i do and have pretty much always done which ive built a lot of my size on and am currently back on after tryin DY's program, is a basic 5 day split, 1 muscle group a day, 2on 1off 3 on 1off, instinctive style, ramping most weights to a top set of 3-6reps, staying on that weight until i can get 10-12reps then increasing weight back down to the 3-6rep range, 2-4 exercise per muscle group.... thats worked for a long time for me and continues too and for a lot of big guys i know in the industry that compete ect. At the end of the day a lot of biggest guys a pretty much training this way and are all doing the same thing.

moral of the story there is none kinda just rambling bull**** lmao

 

[chedapalooza]

I liked the story

 

[AaronJP1]

depends on cheds current time lifting plus his end goals. I normally only really advocate the good ol FB routines to people who seem to be pure rank beginers which you can normally pick up just by the post they make. Then you give them the easy answer of follow SS/5X5/TBT ect ect ect The type of people that have never really been all that athletic, and maybe sit around playing xbox or ps all there lives. Basically you just want them to get familiar with the bar the gym and the movements that need to be executed.

But theres a lot of begginers out there that have a general idea of the gym that are pretty athletic and naturally fit and strong that would be more then ready for doing a split or sorts. I really think the whole do a FB routine for 6 months get your strength up ect has all blown out of proportion. You get a lot of bb forum newbies that get given advice by other FB routine pushers, then they think theve grasped the concept and push it themselves and on it goes.

(Sorry going off on a lil tangent here, venting hahaha)

The program i do and have pretty much always done which ive built a lot of my size on and am currently back on after tryin DY's program, is a basic 5 day split, 1 muscle group a day, 2on 1off 3 on 1off, instinctive style, ramping most weights to a top set of 3-6reps, staying on that weight until i can get 10-12reps then increasing weight back down to the 3-6rep range, 2-4 exercise per muscle group.... thats worked for a long time for me and continues too and for a lot of big guys i know in the industry that compete ect. At the end of the day a lot of biggest guys a pretty much training this way and are all doing the same thing.

moral of the story there is none kinda just rambling bull**** lmao

Legit.

I most try and stay between 8-10 reps.

 

[Gutterpump]

Yes. I had great results supersetting full body workouts. I was doing very high volume. 2-3 lifts for shoulders, chest back @4 sets each. And 2 lifts for bis tris at 2 sets each... I got bigger and
More defined. Again, burnout factor was rough...

I had the same experience. Loved it as a cutting routine, and I also used to throw this in mid-way through bulking when gains start to stall out. Definitely works but easy to overtrain, gotta be careful.

 

[Gutterpump]

Do you have access to a prowler? It's a great way to add in extra volume while assisting recovery. Great tool to use on off days or to finish a workout.

 

[chedapalooza]

Do you have access to a prowler? It's a great way to add in extra volume while assisting recovery. Great tool to use on off days or to finish a workout.

A what?!

 

[Gutterpump]

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&pid=1006

 

[Newtonselite]

Prowlers are evil and make me scared

 

[funkd0c]

Cheda, Have you ever tried DC training? IMO, easiest way to add mass. I have had the most success with it for adding mass. Lowest volume with highest intensity that i have found.

 

[chedapalooza]

Cheda, Have you ever tried DC training? IMO, easiest way to add mass. I have had the most success with it for adding mass. Lowest volume with highest intensity that i have found.

I researched it and set up a template to do bCk in Jan for 4 weeks to try, but I was super lean off a cut training 5 days crazy volume and was hesitant to go so low on the volume straight away bc I do gain weight too easily, not all muscle, mostly fat (yes I know about the carb rules of dc and follow them via IF/lg lifestyle) but I opted for a 3 day 8x8 split instead... Cut my movements down substantially and added quality mass on a Recomp.. Density and fullness was great from 4 weeks of 8x8 before I moves back to a 3 day POF routine... I am past my bulking phase especially with the lack of winter this year.. But I will definitely revisit 8x8 and force myself to try DC for a month or two in the fall/winter... Do u have a particular template u like? I was confused as to what movements to rest pause and what to straight set, etc

 

[funkd0c]

I researched it and set up a template to do bCk in Jan for 4 weeks to try, but I was super lean off a cut training 5 days crazy volume and was hesitant to go so low on the volume straight away bc I do gain weight too easily, not all muscle, mostly fat (yes I know about the carb rules of dc and follow them via IF/lg lifestyle) but I opted for a 3 day 8x8 split instead... Cut my movements down substantially and added quality mass on a Recomp.. Density and fullness was great from 4 weeks of 8x8 before I moves back to a 3 day POF routine... I am past my bulking phase especially with the lack of winter this year.. But I will definitely revisit 8x8 and force myself to try DC for a month or two in the fall/winter... Do u have a particular template u like? I was confused as to what movements to rest pause and what to straight set, etc

I have "bastardized" it to fit my goals. I am a dancer so I don't do leg work(unless it's in my off-season). To keep my flexibility. I do a 4 day split. Mon/Thurs-Push, Tues/Fri-Pull.. Essentially, You rest pause most movements, unless they are lifts that put your lower back at risk for injury(i.e. squats, bent-over rows, deadlifts, etc.) Also, this style of training has made me a big fan of Incline Bench, Close-grip bench press, and T-bar rows. The only body part that I don't use the DC method on is my biceps. Was the only muscle group that didn't respond well too it.

When you have time to try and dedicate to this method it will give you the size you want, IMO. I would like to know when you do try and how you respond to it. Good luck with what ever you choose for now.

 

[chedapalooza]

I have "bastardized" it to fit my goals. I am a dancer so I don't do leg work(unless it's in my off-season). To keep my flexibility. I do a 4 day split. Mon/Thurs-Push, Tues/Fri-Pull.. Essentially, You rest pause most movements, unless they are lifts that put your lower back at risk for injury(i.e. squats, bent-over rows, deadlifts, etc.) Also, this style of training has made me a big fan of Incline Bench, Close-grip bench press, and T-bar rows. The only body part that I don't use the DC method on is my biceps. Was the only muscle group that didn't respond well too it.

When you have time to try and dedicate to this method it will give you the size you want, IMO. I would like to know when you do try and how you respond to it. Good luck with what ever you choose for now.

Well I'm not a dancer, but I'm assuming u haveto stay fit n lean with longer muscles.. I definitely switched things ip when I planned mine.. I'd be interested to take a look if u have yours readily available to pm or email and wouldn't mind?

 

[Jiigzz]

Your trying to do way to much in one session bro... my advice, pair up your workout sessions better. Chest/tris back/bis etc etc. Dont split chest and triceps. if you work one, then work the other on the SAME day. that way it keeps the muscles under tension longer.

Also for gaining mass avoid spending forever in the gym. Less is more when it comes to gaining mass.

 

[Jiigzz]

oh, and maybe try incorporating deloading weeks and things. that workout is very intense and you dont have many rest days. dont overtrain, esecially if you want to gain mass. you'll find that your muscles will be weaker and you wont be lifting anywhere near what your capable of