Best time for cardio to preserve muscle mass??

[lboston]

What--in your opinion--is the best time to do cardio?

I'd really like to do it upon waking as we have an elliptical, but I've read it can cause your body to begin break down muscle since in a fasted state all night?

Any input/ articles appreciated!

 

[AntM1564]

I have done fasted morning cardio with success. I have 5g BCAA prior and sip on another 5 while doing the session. I also feel better waking up and doing it versus waiting later in the day. Try different methods and see what works for you. You'll have people against fasted cardio, some will say to do LISS later in the day, and others will say HIIT. Experiment with your body; there is no universal best method IMO.

 

[lboston]

I have done fasted morning cardio with success. I have 5g BCAA prior and sip on another 5 while doing the session. I also feel better waking up and doing it versus waiting later in the day. Try different methods and see what works for you. You'll have people against fasted cardio, some will say to do LISS later in the day, and others will say HIIT. Experiment with your body; there is no universal best method IMO.

Thanks--how soon before the cardio do you take the BCAAs?

 

[asooneyeonig]

the best time is when you will do it consistently and with intensity. be that morning, afternoon, night, whichever. you just need to know when you are going to do it. once you become an elite world class athlete/competitor then timing of the day can be a vital top optimize success. until then rest assured that just doing it hard enough at any time that you will do it will be plenty.

keep in mind that cardio can happen even when you are lifting weights. and sometimes its nice to do something besides running or the elliptical or bike. swing a sledge hammer. flip some tractor tires. push/pull a sled. carry heavy stuff for distance.

 

[RickRock13]

Fasted cardio with BCAAs is best IMO

 

[ZiR RED]

What is your current body fat, what type of caloric deficit are you in, and what are your goals of doing cardio?

Judging by - walking on the elyptical, your goal is not to increase cardiovascular performance, but maybe body composition?

If you are already really lean and 6 weeks out from a show, then LISS may be best.

If you are just starting to recomp, then you will get the best results from fed HIIT.

Br

 

[MuscleGauge1]

Thanks--how soon before the cardio do you take the BCAAs?

Take them within 30-45 of a workout. You should take them after a workout also...Remember a multi-V is important also. There are two types of Aminos Essential and Branch Chain. Essentials can usually be found in a good multi-v. Both are important

 

[joeblow1]

What--in your opinion--is the best time to do cardio?

I'd really like to do it upon waking as we have an elliptical, but I've read it can cause your body to begin break down muscle since in a fasted state all night?

Any input/ articles appreciated!

I feel morning is best. When your in a fasted state its easier to burn fat as thats what your body has available. After you have been eating all day you will burn off the carbs first. Also keep your hear rate low like 120 bpm. If you get up to 170 bpm your body will burn protein for energy after carbs are depleted. As soon as your done down protein immediately and carbs. As long as you keep fat low and eat only good fats your body fat will decrease drastically. Make sure you get lots of good protein and keep sodium low.

 

[ZiR RED]

Take them within 30-45 of a workout. You should take them after a workout also...Remember a multi-V is important also. There are two types of Aminos Essential and Branch Chain. Essentials can usually be found in a good multi-v. Both are important

The two types of amino acids in the human diet are essential and non-essential. Non-essential our bodies can synthesize from essential amino acids and carbohydrate sources. Essential we cannot synthesize, and thus must eat. Multivitamins rarely contain amino acids, and even if they do, they are not in a high enough quantity to satisfy even the most basic needs for EAA intake.

 

[ZiR RED]

I feel morning is best. When your in a fasted state its easier to burn fat as thats what your body has available. After you have been eating all day you will burn off the carbs first. Also keep your hear rate low like 120 bpm. If you get up to 170 bpm your body will burn protein for energy after carbs are depleted. As soon as your done down protein immediately and carbs. As long as you keep fat low and eat only good fats your body fat will decrease drastically. Make sure you get lots of good protein and keep sodium low.

This is actually not true, and is based upon really old school Joe Weider rhetoric.

First off, the conditioning level of the athlete will determine at what intensity there is a shift from fat oxidation to CHO oxidation.

Second, the amount of cardio done by most weight trainers/bodybuilders is not enough to deplete CHO stores completely. We're not running 10 k's on a treadmill above the lactate threshold.

Third, even if proteins are needed, they will NOT be taken from muscle like you have implied. Blood proteins (specifically albumin) will be broken down for for BCAA. Rhabdomylosis is a serious condition, and usually only occurs in starvation or severe conditioning (cross fit).

Fourth, while fat will be utilized for fuel during exercise in the fasted state, this DOES NOT correlate to a greater decrease in body fat versus the fed state.

Fifth, with the exception of unconditioned individuals or bodybuilders who are near competition shape (4% bf), fed high intensity interval training will have the greatest impacts on decreases in body fat. This is not only due to the calories burned during the session, but the hormonal, metabolic, and cellular adaptations that occur as a result of it.

Sixth, you can lose significant body fat while consuming large quantities of fat. In fact, keeping fats too low will impair reductions in adiposity.

Seventh, excess protein will do absolutely nothing toward maintaining lean mass while reducing body fat. Excess protein will be converted to either CHO or fat derivatives via the liver.

Seventh, what does sodium have to do with decreasing body fat?

Br

 

[joeblow1]

This is actually not true, and is based upon really old school Joe Weider rhetoric.

First off, the conditioning level of the athlete will determine at what intensity there is a shift from fat oxidation to CHO oxidation.

Second, the amount of cardio done by most weight trainers/bodybuilders is not enough to deplete CHO stores completely. We're not running 10 k's on a treadmill above the lactate threshold.

Third, even if proteins are needed, they will NOT be taken from muscle like you have implied. Blood proteins (specifically albumin) will be broken down for for BCAA. Rhabdomylosis is a serious condition, and usually only occurs in starvation or severe conditioning (cross fit).

Fourth, while fat will be utilized for fuel during exercise in the fasted state, this DOES NOT correlate to a greater decrease in body fat versus the fed state.

Fifth, with the exception of unconditioned individuals or bodybuilders who are near competition shape (4% bf), fed high intensity interval training will have the greatest impacts on decreases in body fat. This is not only due to the calories burned during the session, but the hormonal, metabolic, and cellular adaptations that occur as a result of it.

Sixth, you can lose significant body fat while consuming large quantities of fat. In fact, keeping fats too low will impair reductions in adiposity.

Seventh, excess protein will do absolutely nothing toward maintaining lean mass while reducing body fat. Excess protein will be converted to either CHO or fat derivatives via the liver.

Seventh, what does sodium have to do with decreasing body fat?

Br

Sodium causes water retention and high bp not good for anyone I didnt say it related to fat loss its just not good to have too much. Also I said good fats are fine but if you eat a **** load of bad fats I dont see how that helps anyone drop body fat. I do see a difference in doing cardio in a fasted state it worked for me when I was leaning out. This doesnt mean its the only way to do it. Everyone responds differently and this works for me. But basically if you eat clean, do cardio you will drop bodyfat. The majority of people in the gym arent 4% body fat so a general approach will work to get you lean. I was stating my opinion on cardio preference and why. If your a nutritionist or have been to comp level them by all means share your diet and cardio expertise so we all can learn something new. If I ever choose to go to 3% body fat it would be nice to know some proven methods.

 

[ZiR RED]

Sodium causes water retention and high bp not good for anyone I didnt say it related to fat loss its just not good to have too much. Also I said good fats are fine but if you eat a **** load of bad fats I dont see how that helps anyone drop body fat. I do see a difference in doing cardio in a fasted state it worked for me when I was leaning out. This doesnt mean its the only way to do it. Everyone responds differently and this works for me. But basically if you eat clean, do cardio you will drop bodyfat. The majority of people in the gym arent 4% body fat so a general approach will work to get you lean. I was stating my opinion on cardio preference and why. If your a nutritionist or have been to comp level them by all means share your diet and cardio expertise so we all can learn something new. If I ever choose to go to 3% body fat it would be nice to know some proven methods.

A lot more causes water retention and high blood pressure than sodium intake. If you are not hypertensive/pre hypertensive or a few weeks out from competition, and you exercise and drink adequate water, then there is no need to restrict sodium. Although, I agree excessive salt is not good.

Define a "bad fat" or "good fat". Trans fats and hydrogenated oils are terrible for you - agreed. The FDA also claims that unsaturated fats are good fats...but we know how unhealthy polyunsaturated fats are - soy bean oil, corn oil, etc. Further, most saturated fats from animals are converted in mono-unsaturated fats, and do not have a bad effect. And, the saturated "scare" is an unsubstantiated hype based on poor science that was recognized as poor science 50 years ago, but still some how made it into the FDA and medicine.

n=1 on the fasted cardio means little except "it works for me". I'm not trying to insult, but rather educate everyone who is reading this thread.

We know a few things, first of all, the amount of calories burned during training is only part of the fat loss equation. Its the amount of calories burned following the training that is also important. Here's what the research shows:

At moderate intensities, fed cardio increases performance, without affecting fat oxidation during exercise, and results in a greater caloric expenditure during the following 24 hours.
Fed cardio spares liver glycogen, which is an important for anticatabolism during hypocaloric consumption (i.e.: eating to drop body fat).

[FONT=Verdana,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Lee YS. Et al. The effects of various intensities and durations of exercise with and without glucose in milk ingestion on postexercise oxygen consumption. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1999 Dec;39(4):341-7.[/FONT][/FONT]
Horowitz JF, et al. Substrate metabolism when subjects are fed carbohydrate during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1999 May;276(5 Pt 1):E828-35.
Febbraio MA, et al. Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and exercise performance. J Appl Physiol. 2000 Dec;89(6):2220-6.

You are right, the majority of people in the gym are not 4% or near competition, and that is why HIIT training is superior for reducing body fat.

Anecdotal evidence: we can look at the physiques of athletes who perform HIIT training: sprinters, football players, etc.

Empirical evidence: HIIT training causes a perturbation in the homeostatic (normal) state of the internal environment (body). HIIT results in the generation of acid, lactate, and the rapid utilization of fuels. The result is two fold:
First, it requires energy to bring the body back to homeostasis. This energy is expended in balancing pH, metabolizing lactate, rebuilding ATP, and replenishing fuels.
Second, the nature of the exercise results in adaptations that promote nutrient partitioning (i.e.: oxidation of fats for resting energy expenditure, carbs to be stored as glycogen, protein synthesis). Next, cellular changes occur. Enzymes responsible for CHO and Fat burning are increased in the muscle cell. This means the athlete can burn more fat as fuel per unit time that someone who is doing low intensity fasted cardio.

Okura T, et al. Effects of exercise intensity on physical fitness and risk factors for coronary heart disease. Obes Res. 2003 Sep;11(9):1131-9.
Tremblay, et al. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism. 1994 Jul;43(7):814-8.

Yoshioka M, et al. Impact of high-intensity exercise on energy expenditure, lipid oxidation and body fatness. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001 Mar;25(3):332-9

I am a nutritionist, am finishing a PhD in exercise physiology, I have competed, and I have prepped several bodybuilders/fitness models for competition, currently am a collegiate bodybuilding team coach, and have also worked with many athletes at various levels from amatuer to pro.

Br

 

[joeblow1]

A lot more causes water retention and high blood pressure than sodium intake. If you are not hypertensive/pre hypertensive or a few weeks out from competition, and you exercise and drink adequate water, then there is no need to restrict sodium. Although, I agree excessive salt is not good.

Define a "bad fat" or "good fat". Trans fats and hydrogenated oils are terrible for you - agreed. The FDA also claims that unsaturated fats are good fats...but we know how unhealthy polyunsaturated fats are - soy bean oil, corn oil, etc. Further, most saturated fats from animals are converted in mono-unsaturated fats, and do not have a bad effect. And, the saturated "scare" is an unsubstantiated hype based on poor science that was recognized as poor science 50 years ago, but still some how made it into the FDA and medicine.

n=1 on the fasted cardio means little except "it works for me". I'm not trying to insult, but rather educate everyone who is reading this thread.

We know a few things, first of all, the amount of calories burned during training is only part of the fat loss equation. Its the amount of calories burned following the training that is also important. Here's what the research shows:

At moderate intensities, fed cardio increases performance, without affecting fat oxidation during exercise, and results in a greater caloric expenditure during the following 24 hours.
Fed cardio spares liver glycogen, which is an important for anticatabolism during hypocaloric consumption (i.e.: eating to drop body fat).

You are right, the majority of people in the gym are not 4% or near competition, and that is why HIIT training is superior for reducing body fat.

Anecdotal evidence: we can look at the physiques of athletes who perform HIIT training: sprinters, football players, etc.

Empirical evidence: HIIT training causes a perturbation in the homeostatic (normal) state of the internal environment (body). HIIT results in the generation of acid, lactate, and the rapid utilization of fuels. The result is two fold:
First, it requires energy to bring the body back to homeostasis. This energy is expended in balancing pH, metabolizing lactate, rebuilding ATP, and replenishing fuels.
Second, the nature of the exercise results in adaptations that promote nutrient partitioning (i.e.: oxidation of fats for resting energy expenditure, carbs to be stored as glycogen, protein synthesis). Next, cellular changes occur. Enzymes responsible for CHO and Fat burning are increased in the muscle cell. This means the athlete can burn more fat as fuel per unit time that someone who is doing low intensity fasted cardio.

I am a nutritionist, am finishing a PhD in exercise physiology, I have competed, and I have prepped several bodybuilders/fitness models for competition, currently am a collegiate bodybuilding team coach, and have also worked with many athletes at various levels from amatuer to pro.

Br

So whats your take on the most efficient protein, carb, fat ratios for strength athletes?

 

[ZiR RED]

So whats your take on the most efficient protein, carb, fat ratios for strength athletes?

That's a loaded question. It would depend on a few factors.

First, and perhaps most important yet hardest to determine is the individual with regards to their oxidation rate (are they fast oxidizers (glucose dominant) or slow oxidizers (Fat dominant). There's a few measures we could do scientifically to figure this out, but they require invasive measurements and expensive equipment, so some trial and error is often used.

Second depends on the type and volume of training they do. An olympic lifting vs. power lifting vs. bodybuilding vs. sport specific programs all require slightly different use of the energy systems and how much energy is needed.

There are a few recommendations that are pretty universally supported.

First, the optimal protein intake is around 2 to 2.2. g/kg of body weight. Less than this may result in a negative nitrogen balance, while greater than has never been shown to have any advantage, at least not in natural trainees. So, the 1 g per pound holds true.

Next, a minimal amount of fat is needed to support hormonal production and brain function. It seems that at least 35% during a caloric deficit and 25% during a caloric surplus is needed. At least 500 mg per day of EPA and DHA, individually. The rest of the fat should either come from low O-6 mono unsaturated sources (olive oil, almonds, avacado), coconut, or free range animal sources.

Then, we get to the individual nature of whether to fill the remainder of the energy requirements with CHO or fat.

Br

 

[joeblow1]

That's a loaded question. It would depend on a few factors.

First, and perhaps most important yet hardest to determine is the individual with regards to their oxidation rate (are they fast oxidizers (glucose dominant) or slow oxidizers (Fat dominant). There's a few measures we could do scientifically to figure this out, but they require invasive measurements and expensive equipment, so some trial and error is often used.

Second depends on the type and volume of training they do. An olympic lifting vs. power lifting vs. bodybuilding vs. sport specific programs all require slightly different use of the energy systems and how much energy is needed.

There are a few recommendations that are pretty universally supported.

First, the optimal protein intake is around 2 to 2.2. g/kg of body weight. Less than this may result in a negative nitrogen balance, while greater than has never been shown to have any advantage, at least not in natural trainees. So, the 1 g per pound holds true.

Next, a minimal amount of fat is needed to support hormonal production and brain function. It seems that at least 35% during a caloric deficit and 25% during a caloric surplus is needed. At least 500 mg per day of EPA and DHA, individually. The rest of the fat should either come from low O-6 mono unsaturated sources (olive oil, almonds, avacado), coconut, or free range animal sources.

Then, we get to the individual nature of whether to fill the remainder of the energy requirements with CHO or fat.

Br

Specific training for power lifting. We do alot of heavy weight with low volume for core lifts bench, squat, dead. Then for assistance work is high volume low intensity. General physical preparedness (gpp) is done regularly with sled drags and pushes, yoke carries, sledge hammer work all aimed at improving conditioning and for recovery. So basically any edge i can get is welcomed. I do take on about 1.5 grams protein per pound. I keep carbs high for fuel and I try to minimize weight gain. I hover between 235-245. I compete at 242 so I dont want to gain too much weight at this point. I also dont want to lose weight and be forced to compete at 220. So thats why I asked about optimal ratios for strength.

 

[Bryanz47]

Learned a lot here just want to say my thanks .....I would Rep if I had my computer :/

 

[ZiR RED]

Specific training for power lifting. We do alot of heavy weight with low volume for core lifts bench, squat, dead. Then for assistance work is high volume low intensity. General physical preparedness (gpp) is done regularly with sled drags and pushes, yoke carries, sledge hammer work all aimed at improving conditioning and for recovery. So basically any edge i can get is welcomed. I do take on about 1.5 grams protein per pound. I keep carbs high for fuel and I try to minimize weight gain. I hover between 235-245. I compete at 242 so I dont want to gain too much weight at this point. I also dont want to lose weight and be forced to compete at 220. So thats why I asked about optimal ratios for strength.

I see. I would divide the remainder of your caloric intake (that not occupied by protein) into a 3:2 ratio of cho to fat. From there, nutrient timing becomes important. As a basic rule, center CHO around breakfast and peri workout. During these times keep fats on the lower side. Then, spread your fat consmption out away from these meals and keep CHO fairly low.

How often do you train each week and for how long:

Resistance
Conditioning
Low intensity cardio

Br

 

[joeblow1]

I see. I would divide the remainder of your caloric intake (that not occupied by protein) into a 3:2 ratio of cho to fat. From there, nutrient timing becomes important. As a basic rule, center CHO around breakfast and peri workout. During these times keep fats on the lower side. Then, spread your fat consmption out away from these meals and keep CHO fairly low.

How often do you train each week and for how long:

Resistance
Conditioning
Low intensity cardio

Br[/QUOTE
I train 4 days a week usually about 2 hours or slightly more. We do the sled work after lifting for recovery and.conditioning.

 

[ZiR RED]

What do you do when you're not training (i.e: for work/chores, etc.) and how tall are you, and how old are you.

Sorry, should asked all this in the first post.

Br

 

[MuscleGauge1]

The two types of amino acids in the human diet are essential and non-essential. Non-essential our bodies can synthesize from essential amino acids and carbohydrate sources. Essential we cannot synthesize, and thus must eat. Multivitamins rarely contain amino acids, and even if they do, they are not in a high enough quantity to satisfy even the most basic needs for EAA intake.

Awesome info. Do you have a source for this? Interested in more.

 

[joeblow1]

What do you do when you're not training (i.e: for work/chores, etc.) and how tall are you, and how old are you.

Sorry, should asked all this in the first post.

Br

I work security so I get a decent amount of walking in. Im 5 ft 7 on a good day.Im 25, when not training/ working im busy chasing my kids around.I dont have a six pack anymore but my stomach is flat and im roughly around 15% bodyfat at 243. I dont need to be shredded but I still like to look like I lift. Ideally I would like to be 12% at 250- 255 then I could cut 10-15 lbs of water to weigh in and bloat up to 260 and compete. We have 24 hour weigh ins so you have plenty of time to put the weight back on after you cut. Im just not willing to gain a lot of fat to be 255. So I want to gradually reduce fat while maintaining weight and increase muscle. I know its hard but I cant afford to lose strength along the way. Im benching 475 raw and I want the infamous 500 raw. My shirted bench is close to 650 and the increase in raw strength should help push me to 700.

 

[ZiR RED]

Awesome info. Do you have a source for this? Interested in more.

Any nutrition or sports nutrition textbook you can learn more. Here's the one we used in my grad sports nutrition class:

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=sports+nutrition+textbook&hl=en&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1440&bih=785&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=12356324578275820511&sa=X&ei=IDUQT4SEDcT50gGzq4HCAw&ved=0CLgBEPMCMAk

Br