Lateral and rear delt raise forum check.

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    Lateral and rear delt raise forum check.


    My lateral raise vid looks like ****, I'm hoping for some tips. I never seem to progress if my arms are straight at my sides and I do progress on this and feel a pump but idk if its working that well my form looks bad but idk how bad. I really want to build up my side delts though. Also what about my rear delt raises?
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    I'm sorry man but.... Those looked like you were trying to work your external rotators and not your delts.

    Bent laterals looked like rows almost. At your level there is no reason to do bent laterals. Just do wide grip bent rows if you feel the need to do something specific for rear delts but if you are doing any rows at all for back... You don't need anything else.

    Find my page on YouTube, I got an old laterals vid on their somewhere...just search 'thedunhill225' to find my page and scroll thru the puppy and other vids till you see the laterals vid.

    Good luck bro, don't take my comments as a diss man cause I don't mean them that way, just trying to help.

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    Highly, highly disagree about the efficacy of rear laterals for him. They're extremely important for postural and mid-trap health. So many people have internally rotated humerus' due to a major lack of balance on anterior and posterior upper body work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    I'm sorry man but.... Those looked like you were trying to work your external rotators and not your delts.

    Bent laterals looked like rows almost. At your level there is no reason to do bent laterals. Just do wide grip bent rows if you feel the need to do something specific for rear delts but if you are doing any rows at all for back... You don't need anything else.

    Find my page on YouTube, I got an old laterals vid on their somewhere...just search 'thedunhill225' to find my page and scroll thru the puppy and other vids till you see the laterals vid.

    Good luck bro, don't take my comments as a diss man cause I don't mean them that way, just trying to help.

    Peace.
    found your vid. Just curious how much weight are you doing in the lateral vid? If I do the exercise like you did in the video I can do about 25 lbs I was wondering what is considered heavy weight for laterals and rear delts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Highly, highly disagree about the efficacy of rear laterals for him. They're extremely important for postural and mid-trap health. So many people have internally rotated humerus' due to a major lack of balance on anterior and posterior upper body work.
    ^^^^ I second this
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja
    Highly, highly disagree about the efficacy of rear laterals for him. They're extremely important for postural and mid-trap health. So many people have internally rotated humerus' due to a major lack of balance on anterior and posterior upper body work.
    Those people are not doing heavy rows. Those people are basing their back work outs around various pulldowns. I would say the majority or trainees don't do any kind of heavy rows. Bent laterals are an almost useless exercise. If you wanted to do an ex to Target your rear delts then wide grip elbows out rows would be the ex of choice. If your primary back ex is bent BB rows or cable low rows (as it should be) there is just no real need for direct rear delt work. If for some reason such as a person has not been performing rows for a long time and they need to regain some balance then wide grip rows are a far better ex. than bent laterals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD
    found your vid. Just curious how much weight are you doing in the lateral vid? If I do the exercise like you did in the video I can do about 25 lbs I was wondering what is considered heavy weight for laterals and rear delts.
    Probably 50's or 55's... Not sure.

    Wt is relative, HEAVY is relative. If you can use 25's then 25's are heavy for you.
    If you were squating say 225 would you start doing 1/4 reps with 315 cause it looked better or cause you don't consider 225 "heavy''? When I could only use 25'a for laterals... That's what I used.... And it was heavy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    Those people are not doing heavy rows. Those people are basing their back work outs around various pulldowns. I would say the majority or trainees don't do any kind of heavy rows. Bent laterals are an almost useless exercise. If you wanted to do an ex to Target your rear delts then wide grip elbows out rows would be the ex of choice. If your primary back ex is bent BB rows or cable low rows (as it should be) there is just no real need for direct rear delt work. If for some reason such as a person has not been performing rows for a long time and they need to regain some balance then wide grip rows are a far better ex. than bent laterals.
    You're making the misnomer that it's about targeting the rear delts, which it is not. It is about maintaining proper postural health via mid-trap/rear delt work. The pronated grip on a BB Row will actually contribute to the internal rotation. Rear flys, facepulls, seated DB cleans, band pullaparts, etc. are all essential to maintaining both the humerus and posture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    You're making the misnomer that it's about targeting the rear delts, which it is not. It is about maintaining proper postural health via mid-trap/rear delt work. The pronated grip on a BB Row will actually contribute to the internal rotation. Rear flys, facepulls, seated DB cleans, band pullaparts, etc. are all essential to maintaining both the humerus and posture.
    Could you show me any science that shows supination, probation or anywhere in between having any effect on muscle activation in the back when elbow position does not change?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    Could you show me any science that shows supination, probation or anywhere in between having any effect on muscle activation in the back when elbow position does not change?
    EMG readings:
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...ceps_exercises

    Are you really trying to say that grip doesn't effect the on the muscle?
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    Are you really trying to say that grip doesn't effect the on the muscle?[/QUOTE]

    How do u get that question? I am saying that supination or pronation of the wrist has no effect of muscles recruited at the shoulder joint. Now ill read your link.
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    So you post a link that does not support your claim.... Ok.

    Again can you point out some science that shows suppination or pronation or hammer grip having any effect on muscle activation at the shoulder joint?

    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    So you post a link that does not support your claim.... Ok.

    Again can you point out some science that shows suppination or pronation or hammer grip having any effect on muscle activation at the shoulder joint?

    Thank you.
    It would help if you actually read the article and notice the different readings on bicep, lats, and mid and lower traps from the same exercise when the grip is changed.
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    Okay guys I'll post a forum check again next week when I work shoulders again and I do, do barbell rows each week. I'm still going to do rear delts ill just do them right. Thanks for the help guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    It would help if you actually read the article and notice the different readings on bicep, lats, and mid and lower traps from the same exercise when the grip is changed.
    Lol... J read it but you don't "get it". It's elbow position not hand position. I could try to explain it to you but what's the use. Let me ask you to think instead and ask you a question.... If your elbows follow the same path with different grips how in the world could that effect activation of muscles at the shoulder joint? Please think bro. You are reading the wrong thing into what your link says. It does NOT support your claim. Say it over and over all you want but it don't say what you believe it says. Sorry.

    Again, point out where in that link there is science showing that grip and not elbow position effects activation at the shoulder joint.

    Please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    Lol... J read it but you don't "get it". It's elbow position not hand position. I could try to explain it to you but what's the use. Let me ask you to think instead and ask you a question.... If your elbows follow the same path with different grips how in the world could that effect activation of muscles at the shoulder joint? Please think bro. You are reading the wrong thing into what your link says. It does NOT support your claim. Say it over and over all you want but it don't say what you believe it says. Sorry.

    Again, point out where in that link there is science showing that grip and not elbow position effects activation at the shoulder joint.

    Please.
    Hand position is going to effect elbow position. Let's use the aforementioned BB Row as an example, a supinated grip is going to travel in a slightly different path compared to the pronated grip. Due to this, the load on the muscles is going to be changed.

    If you actually knew what you were talking about on this topic, then you would see that the article I linked shows this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225

    Could you show me any science that shows supination, probation or anywhere in between having any effect on muscle activation in the back when elbow position does not change?
    As states above in my original question to you.

    Anyway as for your last post.

    Ah don't try and change your argument or what you said. Of course grip can effect the way the elbow travels but that has not once been argued here. Your comments were about GRIP directly effecting activation of back muscles. Look back. I said that wide grip rows with elbows out is a far more effective rear delt ex than bent laterals. It was after that when u again kept talking about grip, posted a link that does NOT support what you said, continue to argue while refusing to show any evidence that supports your claims.
    AGAIN... What matters when you talk about fiber recruitment and fiber activation at the shoulder joint is elbow position and NOT grip (in terms of rotation. I.e. suppination, pronation or hammer/parallel grip).

    I asked for the.science to support your claims and you provide none, well you link an article but even that article (why not link actual studies and not peoples interpretation of studies or research? But anyway...) does not say what you claim. You keep mentioning that article which means I must assume you do not understand what it says so I will ask yet again... QUOTE YOUR ARTICLE TO PROVE YOUR POINT.
    I have not been insulting even though I have been frustrated by your posts, if you want to try to insult then feel free but that does not change how incorrect you are.
    I don't blame you and actually applaud you for trying to gain knowledge BUT I believe you are doing what most seem to do. You are coming to a conclusion that you WANT to come to and not what any science shows. If I find a review or article based on any study or any research I find the study or research and read it myself... I want to know how they performed the study, what was the studies conclusions and not some internet or magazine authors, etc...
    Off topic but let me give an example (not pertaining to your link).
    This is just a real simple one.
    Many or most emg related work is done with dramatically sub max loads.... Often in the 20-40% of 1rm... Then conclusions are made regarding muscle recruitment. WRONG. fiber recruitment can change drastically based on load. I an not looking it up rt now but I remember one ex that has a dramatic difference is pulldowns behind the neck. The fiber recruitment changes so drastically based on % of 1rm its not even funny.

    I am not trying to insult you or arguing to argue. I just want people to think and I want you to prove what you claim... That grip changes fiber recruitment at the shoulder joint independent of elbow position.
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    At this point, you're adding new things to the argument to try to prove your side. I never once debated the efficacy of the bent row v rear lateral for rear delt activation as that is not the point I was making. You stress to "think about it," but aren't applying any physiology to your statement regarding the grip/elbow position. If you were to think for 2 seconds, it would become clear that grip is going to effect muscle activation even if the elbow position remains the same. A pronated grip is not going to have nearly as much bicep activation compared to a supinated grip for rows and this stress diversion is going to influence the amount of tension that is placed upon the muscles on the posterior side.

    For example, low cable rows. The neutral grip is going to allow for a greater ROM (specifically increased protraction of the scapula) compared to a supinated grip and this will divert a greater stretch-reflex and load to the low and mid traps.

    Trying to prove anything to old lifters is a losing process as they're convinced that they're right even when confronted with contrary evidence. If you'll notice that my original post was about maintaining postural integrity, which is something that heavy rows are not going to accomplish by themselves. Rows are not going to do much, if anything, for rotator cuff health and the exercises I mentioned (rear flys, facepulls, etc.) are designed to do just that: maintain the postural and rotator cuff health.
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    Dunhill's not saying that you shouldn't work out the rear delts.

    But I have to say - with all due respect to the Doctor above - I have never used most of the exercises he cites for rear delt development. Hell, I don't even know what a "band pull apart" is. I'm pretty sure there are no "bands" in my gym.

    My shoulders are the freakish part of my physique - they blow up with almost no effort on my part. I'm 49, been working out since 1982 and the only thing I've ever done for delts ...

    Heavy, heavy dumbbell rows (primarily) - I use the heaviest DB they have in the gym - and that's usually 150 lbs.

    Laterals - with as much weight as I can stand - usually 50 lbs DB.

    Front and Rear Military Press - again, heavy as she will go.

    Wide Grip pull-ups, Wide grip rack chins (these really burn), and I use it a "roc-it" pulldown machine that I load up with 380 lbs of weight.

    I'd also mention - that about 15 years ago I was diagnosed with two herniated disks in my neck (C5 / C6) and they are so degraded that it doesn't take much for me pinch a nerve. Once that happens - I'm out of the gym for at least a week and it's the shoulder / chest exercises that will usually wang my neck. However - I haven't a problem in over 10 year - not a day out of the gym due to a wanged neck. And - I believe the reason for this is because I have built up my delts and traps enough to provide some relief to those C5/6 nerves. **** - I don't know. But if anyone would suffer from an "imbalance" between anterior and posterior - it would be me.
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    Having large deltoids does not equate to glenohumeral function or health.

    I'll have to do some searching to find the research that supports this, but I believe there is a connection between forearm pronation/supination and the degree of back muscle recruitment due to the sharing of nerves as they come out of the brachial plexus. As an empirical example, watch elite olympic lifters when they set up. You'll notice that they flex the wrist, as it increases lat recruitment and helps to keep the bar closer to the body.

    And I believe that the internal/external humeral rotation is flipped when doing pulling exercises, such that doing a supinate row increases internal rotator muscle tension while doing pronated rows increases external rotator tension.

    Br
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    Rodja,

    My 'argument' has not changed. You make a statement, unadjusted you to back it up, you post a link that does not back it up )and actually conflicts with much of your last post), I ask again and again and again for the science backing up your ORIGINAL argument and you give none. I ask you to quote the link YOU POSTED that shows you to be correct, you do not (can not). I will argue science and the validity of many studies but what you are doing is not an exercise in science. This is the last time I will ask you to post the science backing your claim (original claims) or even quote the article someone else wrote that you linked.
    You have a belief and that is all you see and will try to twist what you can to fit your view.... Sorry.
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    This is my original post on the topic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Highly, highly disagree about the efficacy of rear laterals for him. They're extremely important for postural and mid-trap health. So many people have internally rotated humerus' due to a major lack of balance on anterior and posterior upper body work.
    Notice how I was talking about GH and scapula integrity with this post? This was the only point I was trying to make. Your rebuttal is not applicable to my original premise because heavy rows in and of themselves are not going to maintain this health. Based off of your row form, I would suspect that you also have a weakness in your mid-traps.

    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    Rodja,

    My 'argument' has not changed. You make a statement, unadjusted you to back it up, you post a link that does not back it up )and actually conflicts with much of your last post), I ask again and again and again for the science backing up your ORIGINAL argument and you give none. I ask you to quote the link YOU POSTED that shows you to be correct, you do not (can not). I will argue science and the validity of many studies but what you are doing is not an exercise in science. This is the last time I will ask you to post the science backing your claim (original claims) or even quote the article someone else wrote that you linked.
    You have a belief and that is all you see and will try to twist what you can to fit your view.... Sorry.
    Do you want to be the pot or the kettle?

    Let's think about this for a second: you're insinuating that heavy rows are going to be enough to make up for all of the chest presses, flys, front raises, pullups/pulldowns, etc. to maintain the health and strength of the infraspinatus, teres minor, rhomboids, mid-traps, and posterior delts and the subsequent health of the shoulder/posture. That is just an absurd idea to think that 2-3 sets (since you're a HIT guy) is going to do enough to maintain your postural health at the shoulder joint. I'll ignore your obvious burden of proof fallacy that you've been proposing as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Having large deltoids does not equate to glenohumeral function or health.

    I'll have to do some searching to find the research that supports this, but I believe there is a connection between forearm pronation/supination and the degree of back muscle recruitment due to the sharing of nerves as they come out of the brachial plexus. As an empirical example, watch elite olympic lifters when they set up. You'll notice that they flex the wrist, as it increases lat recruitment and helps to keep the bar closer to the body.

    And I believe that the internal/external humeral rotation is flipped when doing pulling exercises, such that doing a supinate row increases internal rotator muscle tension while doing pronated rows increases external rotator tension.

    Br
    I mixed up that last part on the pronated/supinated grip. Fact still remains that grip influences the load on the muscle(s), though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    such that doing a supinate row increases internal rotator muscle tension while doing pronated rows increases external rotator tension.
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I'll have to do some searching to find the research that supports this, but I believe there is a connection between forearm pronation/supination and the degree of back muscle recruitment due to the sharing of nerves as they come out of the brachial plexus.
    Yeah, and it makes sense physiologically speaking, too, if you see the nerve connections, and like Rodja said the shift in load from one muscle to another as the grip chances can have a passive effect on upstream muscle recruitment since there's a change in the tension on the downstream muscle group.
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    On topic, Derrick, lateral flies, while they're so often done incorrectly, are actually very easy to do with good form. The most basic principle is that you're pulling your arm, most importantly the bottom of your arm (bicep and tricep), laterally with your side delt. So it must be parallel with the plane of your upper body. You're mostly doing that. But your elbows must stay at or above the level of your wrists and dumbbells, and you should really extend your arms until they're at least parallel with your shoulders as there can be a lot of trap involvement before you get to the top. As soon as your wrists go above your elbows, you're doing a really twisted external rotation, not a lateral raise. So work on that. You can actually have bent arms while doing the exercise if it's easier on your elbows, but remember to lead with the elbows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    Yup.

    Yeah, and it makes sense physiologically speaking, too, if you see the nerve connections, and like Rodja said the shift in load from one muscle to another as the grip chances can have a passive effect on upstream muscle recruitment since there's a change in the tension on the downstream muscle group.
    So I will use an example and ask you a simple question.
    Look at bent laterals. Using correct form your elbows travel at basically a 90* angle from the body... Picture the bent over position... At almost the top of the rep your upper arms to body position is basically a "T"... Hope you picture what I am saying. Now you are telling me that recruitment at the shoulder joint is different than it would be with elbows kept wide bent BB rows (where the elbows travel the exact same path)??? Or even better how about this question. Recruitment is different at the shoulder joint if the same exact bent laterals are performed with a over hand grip on the DBs when doing the laterals instead of a hammer grip????
    So can you please show me anything....any science that supports that view?
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    The end position may be the same, but transverse shoulder extension occurs to a far less degree with a wide grip row vs. a rear deltoid raise.

    Recruitment is different at the shoulder joint if the same exact bent laterals are performed with a over hand grip on the DBs when doing the laterals instead of a hammer grip????
    In this case, yes, because as the elbow is in a state of extension, the change from overhand to neutral grip changes the rotation of the humerus. Try it, extend your arm to the side and move between the two grips and you will see that your upper arm rotates.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    The end position may be the same, but transverse shoulder extension occurs to a far less degree with a wide grip row vs. a rear deltoid raise.

    In this case, yes, because as the elbow is in a state of extension, the change from overhand to neutral grip changes the rotation of the humerus. Try it, extend your arm to the side and move between the two grips and you will see that your upper arm rotates.

    Br
    Um... No my upper ARM does not rotate. My wrist does but not my upper ARM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    Um... No my upper ARM does not rotate. My wrist does but not my upper ARM.
    Your anatomy is different from everyone else's? Interesting....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Your anatomy is different from everyone else's? Interesting....
    My god... When you do alternate db curls does your upper ARM rotate? Why not? Your wrist rotates... I can't even believe this argument. My anatomy is no diff than anyone else's, you just seem to not understand anatomy. Would you like me to post a video showing how I can rotate my wrist, in any position, without rotating my shoulder joint?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    My god... When you do alternate db curls does your upper ARM rotate? Why not? Your wrist rotates... I can't even believe this argument. My anatomy is no diff than anyone else's, you just seem to not understand anatomy. Would you like me to post a video showing how I can rotate my wrist, in any position, without rotating my shoulder joint?

    God!!
    Go ahead. Post a video that shows that your elbow position doesn't change when you rotate from full pronation to full supination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225

    My god... When you do alternate db curls does your upper ARM rotate? Why not? Your wrist rotates... I can't even believe this argument. My anatomy is no diff than anyone else's, you just seem to not understand anatomy. Would you like me to post a video showing how I can rotate my wrist, in any position, without rotating my shoulder joint?

    God!!
    Ok k need 2 more posts before I can post a link.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225

    Ok k need 2 more posts before I can post a link.
    Now that should do it, ill charge my phone and record this for you... I can't believe I am doing this....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Go ahead. Post a video that shows that your elbow position doesn't change when you rotate from full pronation to full supination.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0rn...e_gdata_player

    Now please watch it soon cause I hate having such an idiotic video on my youtube page. Hell my "bob the Disney squirrel" videos are more educational to MOST.

    I REALLY AM DONE NOW. You made arguments, changed them, changed them back, post a link that does not claim what you say, I beg you to quote where the article you linked to supports your view and you don't. You back up nothing and make foolish claims. I hope you finally see how foolish your arguments are.... Or is my anatomy different than yours and everyone else like you say? Lol
    Again, my work is done.
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    For fun I just HAD to add this cause you criticized my form on bent rows.... PLEASE search all of you tube and find a video of someone using better form for 400+ bent rows... Search all of YouTube, pros, top amatures,.... Anyone.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI7_...e_gdata_player
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    Dun, when your shoulder was abducted, that was not full supination, not the point where the wrist would have to be when performing a supinated row. You went from neutral to pronated. If you abduct or extend your shoulder (and extend your elbow) and rotate to where your palm faces up or down, where it will be in a supinated vs. pronated row, you will have rotation at the humerus.

    Br
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    You are right. I could not find any better form anywhere where guys were moving heavy ego weights. Far too many compromise form for the weight. Not one elbow could I find that actually pasted the midsection and contracted.

    Actual true form of the exercise:


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    Dun, when your shoulder was abducted, that was not full supination, not the point where the wrist would have to be when performing a supinated row. You went from neutral to pronated. If you abduct or extend your shoulder (and extend your elbow) and rotate to where your palm faces up or down, where it will be in a supinated vs. pronated row, you will have rotation at the humerus.

    Br
    Supination and pronation takes place at the.wrist joint. Now if you wanna talk bent rows and you wanna describe bent rows with elbows pinned to the side... They can be done with either grip and will have the same effect at the shoulder joint.

    In the vid my wrist went from full supination (as would be the standard grip for bent laterals) to mid point ( as would be the standard grip for elbows out bent rows) to full pronation (no ex I can think of except maybe gironda dips would use that grip) and as long as the.elbow follows the.same line, the recruitment at the.shoulder joint is the same.

    I don't know how this is not obvious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Dun, when your shoulder was abducted, that was not full supination, not the point where the wrist would have to be when performing a supinated row. You went from neutral to pronated. If you abduct or extend your shoulder (and extend your elbow) and rotate to where your palm faces up or down, where it will be in a supinated vs. pronated row, you will have rotation at the humerus.

    Br
    That says it all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    That says it all.
    You do not even understand what suppination and pronation are and where it occurs. I even showed the elbow movement that you have been arguing that a diff in grip would effect recruitment. God I hope you realize how foolish you sound. Suppination and pronation takes place at the wrist joint. The end. How you can argue otherwise shows your incredible lack of understanding. You are foolish. Sad is a fool who does not know when he is wrong.
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