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Lateral and rear delt raise forum check.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    Supination and pronation takes place at the.wrist joint. Now if you wanna talk bent rows and you wanna describe bent rows with elbows pinned to the side... They can be done with either grip and will have the same effect at the shoulder joint.

    In the vid my wrist went from full supination (as would be the standard grip for bent laterals) to mid point ( as would be the standard grip for elbows out bent rows) to full pronation (no ex I can think of except maybe gironda dips would use that grip) and as long as the.elbow follows the.same line, the recruitment at the.shoulder joint is the same.

    I don't know how this is not obvious.
    Semantics aside...

    The recruitment at the shoulder joint is not the same, due to varying rotations of the humerus at the start of the movement.

    When the shoulder and elbow is fully extended, holding the bar with an overhand vs. underhand grip will require external or internal rotation to accomplish, respectively. In the case of the prior, a greater recruitment of the external rotators (infraspinatus, teres minor) will occur, whereas with the latter a greater recruitment of the lats will occur.

    Br

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Semantics aside...

    The recruitment at the shoulder joint is not the same, due to varying rotations of the humerus at the start of the movement.

    When the shoulder and elbow is fully extended, holding the bar with an overhand vs. underhand grip will require external or internal rotation to accomplish, respectively. In the case of the prior, a greater recruitment of the external rotators (infraspinatus, teres minor) will occur, whereas with the latter a greater recruitment of the lats will occur.

    Br
    Let's not forget that as this was a shoulder topic, the posterior deltoid is an external rotator as well.

    I should know where EMG studies for back recruitment are but I have to find the article first. I will look later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED

    Semantics aside...

    The recruitment at the shoulder joint is not the same, due to varying rotations of the humerus at the start of the movement.

    When the shoulder and elbow is fully extended, holding the bar with an overhand vs. underhand grip will require external or internal rotation to accomplish, respectively. In the case of the prior, a greater recruitment of the external rotators (infraspinatus, teres minor) will occur, whereas with the latter a greater recruitment of the lats will occur.

    Br
    There is no rotation of the humerus. If there were then there is rotation at the shoulder joint thus the action at the joint is different.
    Please remember the original conversation. It was that I said bent laterals are a basically useless exercise and that wide grip elbow out rows are a far greater ex for rear delts. It was argued that the.grip of wide elbow out rows cause a different recruitment at the shoulder joint and it is just not true (the only real diff is the greater recruitment of muscles involved do to a greater transfer of resistance for a greater range but that's a diff argument...)
    I am even ignoring every change in argument that was made, being told an article backs up a persons claims when it doesn't and they can't even make an attempt to quote where the link they posted backs them up. I will even ignore where I was told that sup&pro causes rotation of the upper ARM (ridiculous, not just cause I wasted my time to show it in a vid but just think as simple as db curls, when you supinate your wrist as you curl... DOES YOUR UPPER ARM ROTATE? OF COURSE NOT).

    If people don't get it all I can say is re-read the thread and the argument changes over and over again.
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    What is it going to take for you to at least entertain the idea of "Hmmmm....everyone else disagrees with me (including two guys with advanced degrees in the field) on this. Maybe I'm the one that's wrong?"

    Regardless, it's no longer worth the effort to show you that the humerus is going to rotate when shifting from full supination to full pronation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja
    What is it going to take for you to at least entertain the idea of "Hmmmm....everyone else disagrees with me (including two guys with advanced degrees in the field) on this. Maybe I'm the one that's wrong?"

    Regardless, it's no longer worth the effort to show you that the humerus is going to rotate when shifting from full supination to full pronation.
    Rotating the upper ARM is NOT supination of the wrist. What is so hard to understand? I posted a vid showing full supination to pronation OF THE WRIST with no rotation of the ARM. Explain db curls then.... Why does the upper ARM not rotate when you perform a supination as you curl? Because supination is at the wrist.

    You were supposed to show science and you have not. You link an article and it does not support your view, you've changed your argument countless times.
    You tell me to post a vid... I do and
    You can not argue it at all. I am just glad others can see how your arguments change, lack any validity, are not backed by science and are really just irrational exercises in stubborn arrogance.

    You bore me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225

    Rotating the upper ARM is NOT supination of the wrist. What is so hard to understand? I posted a vid showing full supination to pronation OF THE WRIST with no rotation of the ARM. Explain db curls then.... Why does the upper ARM not rotate when you perform a supination as you curl? Because supination is at the wrist.

    You were supposed to show science and you have not. You link an article and it does not support your view, you've changed your argument countless times.

    You bore me.
    All I want to know is who has the best rear delts out of everyone in this discussion.
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    I do!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0071982WC

    All I want to know is who has the best rear delts out of everyone in this discussion.
    How many do you think would post pics? Hmmmmm
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    "Best" is subjective.

    "Best" proportionately?
    "Best" muscularity?
    "Best" mass?

    Too subjective.

    Lots of big fat guys think they are more muscular because they have mass.
    Lots of small lean guys think they are less muscular because they lack mass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    "Best" is subjective.

    "Best" proportionately?
    "Best" muscularity?
    "Best" mass?

    Too subjective.

    Lots of big fat guys think they are more muscular because they have mass.
    Lots of small lean guys think they are less muscular because they lack mass.


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    Side delt shot
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    Rear delts
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0071982WC
    <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 496"/>

    Rear delts
    Nice job man. Real lean.... But change those shorts bro.lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    My lateral raise vid looks like ****, I'm hoping for some tips. I never seem to progress if my arms are straight at my sides and I do progress on this and feel a pump but idk if its working that well my form looks bad but idk how bad. I really want to build up my side delts though. Also what about my rear delt raises?
    http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...eralRaise.html

    http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...eralRaise.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    My lateral raise vid looks like ****, I'm hoping for some tips. I never seem to progress if my arms are straight at my sides and I do progress on this and feel a pump but idk if its working that well my form looks bad but idk how bad. I really want to build up my side delts though. Also what about my rear delt raises?
    http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...eralRaise.html

    http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...eralRaise.html
    DerickVonD, Look at the form of these movements. Notice the full range of motions and contraction at the top. Now notice the size of the dumbbells in his hands.

    You are a "big boy". Based on those images you posted in those videos you have a lot less lbm than you do overall body mass and weight. Swallow some pride. Don't be like most "big boys" who equate their body mass and ability to move a lot of weight around with horrible form to actual muscle recruitment and development. Your form is horrible and it's no wonder you don't have back and neck injuries.

    You are constantly posting about wrist, knee, back, bicep, forearm...etc...injuries. Any of this starting to make sense to you yet?

    Drop the weight to 15-20lbs or a weight that allows you to rep out at 20 reps with perfect form. Do three sets of that and tell me how well you delts progress after 6 weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    DerickVonD, Look at the form of these movements. Notice the full range of motions and contraction at the top. Now notice the size of the dumbbells in his hands.

    You are a "big boy". Based on those images you posted in those videos you have a lot less lbm than you do overall body mass and weight. Swallow some pride. Don't be like most "big boys" who equate their body mass and ability to move a lot of weight around with horrible form to actual muscle recruitment and development. Your form is horrible and it's no wonder you don't have back and neck injuries.

    You are constantly posting about wrist, knee, back, bicep, forearm...etc...injuries. Any of this starting to make sense to you yet?

    Drop the weight to 15-20lbs or a weight that allows you to rep out at 20 reps with perfect form. Do three sets of that and tell me how well you delts progress after 6 weeks.
    Yeah I know. Got rid of ez bar work completely, did good with preacher curls going to alternate preacher and standing curls and going to drop 30 lbs on front squat atleast and go low on the delt exercises. I'll post a new vids tonight. Trouble is I have no one to spot me, so Idk if I'm doing something wrong unless I have my camera out there to record and I need to like find the perfect spot to put it.
    I can do 25 lbs like this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASNNE44n_Zk
    Atleast I know what is causing pain now and the pain is going away now. My wrist pain is leaving but my knee pain is there but atleast I know why now. I was doing half front squat reps without even knowing. There is no one to spot me and no mirriors in my garage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    Yeah I know. Got rid of ez bar work completely, did good with preacher curls going to alternate preacher and standing curls and going to drop 30 lbs on front squat atleast and go low on the delt exercises. I'll post a new vids tonight. Trouble is I have no one to spot me, so Idk if I'm doing something wrong unless I have my camera out there to record and I need to like find the perfect spot to put it.
    If you don't know and really need a camera then you have poor form and are not doing it right. Seriously, use an empty barbell and do them right. Perfect the form. You know it when it's right. Then slowly add weight incrementally. Quit trying to be so damned strong and compromise form. You are making little progress in muscular development by doing this and risk injury which will sideline you a while if not for good.
    I can do 25 lbs like this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASNNE44n_Zk
    You can do that perfect form, without swinging and shrugging, while speaking, for 20 reps with 25lbs?
    Atleast I know what is causing pain now and the pain is going away now. My wrist pain is leaving but my knee pain is there but atleast I know why now. I was doing half front squat reps without even knowing. There is no one to spot me and no mirriors in my garage.
    Again, you know proper form when you feel it - in the dark - without a spotter. Focus on form.
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    25 without swinging for 8-10 for 3 sets. Plus I still can't do back squats. I suspect this is because I have been doing lateral and rear delt training wrong. I can do barbell rows just fine though. Every time I put the bar in position for the back squat it feels like its being pushed forward and I feel this pull in my upper back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    25 without swinging for 8-10 for 3 sets.
    Is it 8 or 10?

    Drop the weight and do 3 strict form sets for reps of 20. 6 weeks from now you will thank me!
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Is it 8 or 10?

    Drop the weight and do 3 strict form sets for reps of 20. 6 weeks from now you will thank me!
    Ok. was just hesitant to do such high reps. I've tried rep ranges over 12 before and seem to get stuck. I usually do 8-12 reps. Are you talking 20 reps for rear delts too?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    Ok. was just hesitant to do such high reps. I've tried rep ranges over 12 before and seem to get stuck. I usually do 8-12 reps. Are you talking 20 reps for rear delts too?
    OK. Here is the point. Most fail at form. The swing the weight up and then drop it down. Slowly raise the weight in a strict form. Hold for a pause at the top. Slowly lower the weight down in controlled form. 2 seconds up, 1 second pause, 2 seconds down. Try this with a weight that you can do 20 reps in as strict a form as I have stated. Rest for 60 to 90 second. Do as many reps as you can in the second set with the same strict form. Repeat. I promise that whatever weight it was you did 20 reps with you will not repeat for 20 reps for the next two sets.

    Do it exactly as instructed in the video you posted above.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    OK. Here is the point. Most fail at form. The swing the weight up and then drop it down. Slowly raise the weight in a strict form. Hold for a pause at the top. Slowly lower the weight down in controlled form. 2 seconds up, 1 second pause, 2 seconds down. Try this with a weight that you can do 20 reps in as strict a form as I have stated. Rest for 60 to 90 second. Do as many reps as you can in the second set with the same strict form. Repeat. I promise that whatever weight it was you did 20 reps with you will not repeat for 20 reps for the next two sets.

    Do it exactly as instructed in the video you posted above.
    and what about the rear delt raises? 20 reps on them too?
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    Yes.

    If I do rears with dumbbell I often rest my forehead on the top on an inclined bench. You will likely need even lighter weight to perform these strictly with proper form.

    Form, form, form, form.

    Did I mention - form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Yes.

    If I do rears with dumbbell I often rest my forehead on the top on an inclined bench. You will likely need even lighter weight to perform these strictly with proper form.

    Form, form, form, form.

    Did I mention - form.
    I was thinking of doing them seatd on an incline bench like this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7BYxQZf6vE
    sort of like this...god that music is awful.
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    http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...eralRaise.html

    Look how different the form is.

    Do what you like.

    Good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    I was thinking of doing them seatd on an incline bench like this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7BYxQZf6vE
    sort of like this...god that music is awful.
    You're overanalyzing your situation. I posted 2 vids--each showing you how to properly execute the exercises--just perform them as illustrated. If you would like to further the development of your shoulders' health, incorporate things like shoulder dislocations w/a band into your regimen. Foam rolling is great as well.
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    Well I went to record myself and the batteries in my camera died. It's not really meant for video, so it drains the batteries like crazy. Anyway I used an old tv out in the garage as a ghetto mirror. It looked like I was doing the laterals right. On the second set I heard a little cracking in my right shoulder when I moved my wrists forward, I moved them slightly less forward and it stopped. After I did the rear delts, my upper back felt good and it's kind of hard to explain but it made me feel like after the exercise I was it made me stand more upright.
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    Okay guys I have video updates. I also included a video of me doing scaptions and two of me doing db shoulder presses. One from the front view and one from the side. In the video of the shoulder press it looks like I'm not going parallel with the ground, but slightly above. I may need to drop the weight slightly. I'll let you guys decide. Anyway here are the new videos.
    http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...nt=Press01.mp4 Shoulder Press
    http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...Press_Side.mp4 Shoulder press side view
    http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...=Lateral00.mp4 Lateral Raise
    http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...RearDelt00.mp4 Rear Delt Raise
    http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...captions00.mp4 Scaptions
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    The Rear Delt Raise technique seems like it could use a little help. Let me ask you: are you currently doing any Overhead Pressing? I'm getting the impression you're overdoing the shoulder work. Shoulders get hit pretty hard in a large majority of exercises, namely the Bench Press. All you really need to be doing are exercises to prevent muscle imbalances, which tend to be a major cause of injuries in the first place, so Rows and OH Presses may be exercises you will want to look into implementing in the event you aren't already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    The Rear Delt Raise technique seems like it could use a little help. Let me ask you: are you currently doing any Overhead Pressing? I'm getting the impression you're overdoing the shoulder work. Shoulders get hit pretty hard in a large majority of exercises, namely the Bench Press. All you really need to be doing are exercises to prevent muscle imbalances, which tend to be a major cause of injuries in the first place, so Rows and OH Presses may be exercises you will want to look into implementing in the event you aren't already.
    Yeah I do those already. OH with dumbbell though the video is posted above.
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    Shoulder press: Too heavy. Start with the dumbbells resting on your shoulders and your elbows facing forward. press up. Your elbows should not point to the sides until they reach eye level. Also, pick up the weight with a flat back - seen too many people hurt themselves lifting weights up with a rounded back.

    Rear delt raises seem to heavy. Lighten the load and get a full ROM.

    Lastly, do scaptions with little to no weigth lying prone on a bench. Hold the position for a second and let down slowly. Feel your lower traps engage.

    Br
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    Let me attest to the comment on how careful you need to be just picking up a wt. Less than a week after pulling around 7 in the gym I blew out 3 discs moving a 30lb box. I actually believe the stronger and more muscular you are... The more likely you are to blow a disc out moving insignificant wts.
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    Thanks for the advice. I'll have a new video update next week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Shoulder press: Too heavy. Start with the dumbbells resting on your shoulders and your elbows facing forward. press up. Your elbows should not point to the sides until they reach eye level. Also, pick up the weight with a flat back - seen too many people hurt themselves lifting weights up with a rounded back.

    Rear delt raises seem to heavy. Lighten the load and get a full ROM.

    Lastly, do scaptions with little to no weigth lying prone on a bench. Hold the position for a second and let down slowly. Feel your lower traps engage.

    Br
    Could you provide a video of the standing shoulder press with dumbbells for reference? All I can really find is people doing them seated and a woman using such light weight you can hold the weight up for like 10 minutes.
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    Do you have a barbell? Just do OH Presses
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    I unfortunately can't find you a good dumbbell pressing instructional vid, and if I do I'll post it, but here's one with a barbell.

    How to Shoulder Press - YouTube

    I think everything here is completely on point although I would contest the statement on grip width. While the one he mentions is optimal, wider grip is still ok and may be better depending on the individual (I can't hold it as narrow as he or I pinch a nerve that causes my hands to go numb).

    Also, I like the corrections you made with your lateral raises.
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    ^^^ Do this except with dumbbells. Your arms/wrist should be neutral (palms facing in) at the start of the ROM and then finish with palms forward.

    Br
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    Well the only reason I was doing this standing with dumbbells is because I had trouble with form with the barbell and I figured it was because my shoulders are shifted forward. Also, it has always been very difficult for me to have my elbows pointing forward while holding the bar, unless I start with the bar just below my chin. Anytime it's lower than that it is very difficult to have my elbows forward regardless of where my grip is. I'd probably much rather do this exercise with the bb or alternate each week with standing bb and seated db. Is there anything I can do about that? I mean if the bar starts slightly higher, would I still get good shoulder development? It's hard to explain if my palms are not facing forward and are facing each other it is a lot easier to have my elbows pointing forward when my arms are lower, but if they are facing forward I have to bring the bar up the barbell up higher.
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    http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...t=HPIM1753.mp4 Over head press. Now I figure you guys are goign to tell me my form is off and I am going to get depressed because no matter what I do. If i grip narrower, if I grip wider it doesn't seem to matter one big. My form never looks as good as any of the people I've seen.
    http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e5...t=HPIM1756.mp4 Rear Delt Raise
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    OHP looks pretty good. Nothing to change from the side angle.

    Rear delt raises- the video is so dark i can hardly see anything
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