Lateral and rear delt raise forum check.

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    Yup.

    Yeah, and it makes sense physiologically speaking, too, if you see the nerve connections, and like Rodja said the shift in load from one muscle to another as the grip chances can have a passive effect on upstream muscle recruitment since there's a change in the tension on the downstream muscle group.
    So I will use an example and ask you a simple question.
    Look at bent laterals. Using correct form your elbows travel at basically a 90* angle from the body... Picture the bent over position... At almost the top of the rep your upper arms to body position is basically a "T"... Hope you picture what I am saying. Now you are telling me that recruitment at the shoulder joint is different than it would be with elbows kept wide bent BB rows (where the elbows travel the exact same path)??? Or even better how about this question. Recruitment is different at the shoulder joint if the same exact bent laterals are performed with a over hand grip on the DBs when doing the laterals instead of a hammer grip????
    So can you please show me anything....any science that supports that view?
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  2. The end position may be the same, but transverse shoulder extension occurs to a far less degree with a wide grip row vs. a rear deltoid raise.

    Recruitment is different at the shoulder joint if the same exact bent laterals are performed with a over hand grip on the DBs when doing the laterals instead of a hammer grip????
    In this case, yes, because as the elbow is in a state of extension, the change from overhand to neutral grip changes the rotation of the humerus. Try it, extend your arm to the side and move between the two grips and you will see that your upper arm rotates.

    Br
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    The end position may be the same, but transverse shoulder extension occurs to a far less degree with a wide grip row vs. a rear deltoid raise.

    In this case, yes, because as the elbow is in a state of extension, the change from overhand to neutral grip changes the rotation of the humerus. Try it, extend your arm to the side and move between the two grips and you will see that your upper arm rotates.

    Br
    Um... No my upper ARM does not rotate. My wrist does but not my upper ARM.
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?

  4. Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    Um... No my upper ARM does not rotate. My wrist does but not my upper ARM.
    Your anatomy is different from everyone else's? Interesting....
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  5. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Your anatomy is different from everyone else's? Interesting....
    My god... When you do alternate db curls does your upper ARM rotate? Why not? Your wrist rotates... I can't even believe this argument. My anatomy is no diff than anyone else's, you just seem to not understand anatomy. Would you like me to post a video showing how I can rotate my wrist, in any position, without rotating my shoulder joint?

    God!!
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    My god... When you do alternate db curls does your upper ARM rotate? Why not? Your wrist rotates... I can't even believe this argument. My anatomy is no diff than anyone else's, you just seem to not understand anatomy. Would you like me to post a video showing how I can rotate my wrist, in any position, without rotating my shoulder joint?

    God!!
    Go ahead. Post a video that shows that your elbow position doesn't change when you rotate from full pronation to full supination.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  7. Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225

    My god... When you do alternate db curls does your upper ARM rotate? Why not? Your wrist rotates... I can't even believe this argument. My anatomy is no diff than anyone else's, you just seem to not understand anatomy. Would you like me to post a video showing how I can rotate my wrist, in any position, without rotating my shoulder joint?

    God!!
    Ok k need 2 more posts before I can post a link.
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?

  8. Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225

    Ok k need 2 more posts before I can post a link.
    Now that should do it, ill charge my phone and record this for you... I can't believe I am doing this....
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Go ahead. Post a video that shows that your elbow position doesn't change when you rotate from full pronation to full supination.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0rn...e_gdata_player

    Now please watch it soon cause I hate having such an idiotic video on my youtube page. Hell my "bob the Disney squirrel" videos are more educational to MOST.

    I REALLY AM DONE NOW. You made arguments, changed them, changed them back, post a link that does not claim what you say, I beg you to quote where the article you linked to supports your view and you don't. You back up nothing and make foolish claims. I hope you finally see how foolish your arguments are.... Or is my anatomy different than yours and everyone else like you say? Lol
    Again, my work is done.
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?

  10. For fun I just HAD to add this cause you criticized my form on bent rows.... PLEASE search all of you tube and find a video of someone using better form for 400+ bent rows... Search all of YouTube, pros, top amatures,.... Anyone.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI7_...e_gdata_player
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?

  11. Dun, when your shoulder was abducted, that was not full supination, not the point where the wrist would have to be when performing a supinated row. You went from neutral to pronated. If you abduct or extend your shoulder (and extend your elbow) and rotate to where your palm faces up or down, where it will be in a supinated vs. pronated row, you will have rotation at the humerus.

    Br
  12. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    You are right. I could not find any better form anywhere where guys were moving heavy ego weights. Far too many compromise form for the weight. Not one elbow could I find that actually pasted the midsection and contracted.

    Actual true form of the exercise:



  13. Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    Dun, when your shoulder was abducted, that was not full supination, not the point where the wrist would have to be when performing a supinated row. You went from neutral to pronated. If you abduct or extend your shoulder (and extend your elbow) and rotate to where your palm faces up or down, where it will be in a supinated vs. pronated row, you will have rotation at the humerus.

    Br
    Supination and pronation takes place at the.wrist joint. Now if you wanna talk bent rows and you wanna describe bent rows with elbows pinned to the side... They can be done with either grip and will have the same effect at the shoulder joint.

    In the vid my wrist went from full supination (as would be the standard grip for bent laterals) to mid point ( as would be the standard grip for elbows out bent rows) to full pronation (no ex I can think of except maybe gironda dips would use that grip) and as long as the.elbow follows the.same line, the recruitment at the.shoulder joint is the same.

    I don't know how this is not obvious.
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Dun, when your shoulder was abducted, that was not full supination, not the point where the wrist would have to be when performing a supinated row. You went from neutral to pronated. If you abduct or extend your shoulder (and extend your elbow) and rotate to where your palm faces up or down, where it will be in a supinated vs. pronated row, you will have rotation at the humerus.

    Br
    That says it all.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  15. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    That says it all.
    You do not even understand what suppination and pronation are and where it occurs. I even showed the elbow movement that you have been arguing that a diff in grip would effect recruitment. God I hope you realize how foolish you sound. Suppination and pronation takes place at the wrist joint. The end. How you can argue otherwise shows your incredible lack of understanding. You are foolish. Sad is a fool who does not know when he is wrong.
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?

  16. Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225 View Post
    Supination and pronation takes place at the.wrist joint. Now if you wanna talk bent rows and you wanna describe bent rows with elbows pinned to the side... They can be done with either grip and will have the same effect at the shoulder joint.

    In the vid my wrist went from full supination (as would be the standard grip for bent laterals) to mid point ( as would be the standard grip for elbows out bent rows) to full pronation (no ex I can think of except maybe gironda dips would use that grip) and as long as the.elbow follows the.same line, the recruitment at the.shoulder joint is the same.

    I don't know how this is not obvious.
    Semantics aside...

    The recruitment at the shoulder joint is not the same, due to varying rotations of the humerus at the start of the movement.

    When the shoulder and elbow is fully extended, holding the bar with an overhand vs. underhand grip will require external or internal rotation to accomplish, respectively. In the case of the prior, a greater recruitment of the external rotators (infraspinatus, teres minor) will occur, whereas with the latter a greater recruitment of the lats will occur.

    Br

  17. Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Semantics aside...

    The recruitment at the shoulder joint is not the same, due to varying rotations of the humerus at the start of the movement.

    When the shoulder and elbow is fully extended, holding the bar with an overhand vs. underhand grip will require external or internal rotation to accomplish, respectively. In the case of the prior, a greater recruitment of the external rotators (infraspinatus, teres minor) will occur, whereas with the latter a greater recruitment of the lats will occur.

    Br
    Let's not forget that as this was a shoulder topic, the posterior deltoid is an external rotator as well.

    I should know where EMG studies for back recruitment are but I have to find the article first. I will look later.
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED

    Semantics aside...

    The recruitment at the shoulder joint is not the same, due to varying rotations of the humerus at the start of the movement.

    When the shoulder and elbow is fully extended, holding the bar with an overhand vs. underhand grip will require external or internal rotation to accomplish, respectively. In the case of the prior, a greater recruitment of the external rotators (infraspinatus, teres minor) will occur, whereas with the latter a greater recruitment of the lats will occur.

    Br
    There is no rotation of the humerus. If there were then there is rotation at the shoulder joint thus the action at the joint is different.
    Please remember the original conversation. It was that I said bent laterals are a basically useless exercise and that wide grip elbow out rows are a far greater ex for rear delts. It was argued that the.grip of wide elbow out rows cause a different recruitment at the shoulder joint and it is just not true (the only real diff is the greater recruitment of muscles involved do to a greater transfer of resistance for a greater range but that's a diff argument...)
    I am even ignoring every change in argument that was made, being told an article backs up a persons claims when it doesn't and they can't even make an attempt to quote where the link they posted backs them up. I will even ignore where I was told that sup&pro causes rotation of the upper ARM (ridiculous, not just cause I wasted my time to show it in a vid but just think as simple as db curls, when you supinate your wrist as you curl... DOES YOUR UPPER ARM ROTATE? OF COURSE NOT).

    If people don't get it all I can say is re-read the thread and the argument changes over and over again.
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?

  19. What is it going to take for you to at least entertain the idea of "Hmmmm....everyone else disagrees with me (including two guys with advanced degrees in the field) on this. Maybe I'm the one that's wrong?"

    Regardless, it's no longer worth the effort to show you that the humerus is going to rotate when shifting from full supination to full pronation.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  20. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja
    What is it going to take for you to at least entertain the idea of "Hmmmm....everyone else disagrees with me (including two guys with advanced degrees in the field) on this. Maybe I'm the one that's wrong?"

    Regardless, it's no longer worth the effort to show you that the humerus is going to rotate when shifting from full supination to full pronation.
    Rotating the upper ARM is NOT supination of the wrist. What is so hard to understand? I posted a vid showing full supination to pronation OF THE WRIST with no rotation of the ARM. Explain db curls then.... Why does the upper ARM not rotate when you perform a supination as you curl? Because supination is at the wrist.

    You were supposed to show science and you have not. You link an article and it does not support your view, you've changed your argument countless times.
    You tell me to post a vid... I do and
    You can not argue it at all. I am just glad others can see how your arguments change, lack any validity, are not backed by science and are really just irrational exercises in stubborn arrogance.

    You bore me.
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by dunhill225

    Rotating the upper ARM is NOT supination of the wrist. What is so hard to understand? I posted a vid showing full supination to pronation OF THE WRIST with no rotation of the ARM. Explain db curls then.... Why does the upper ARM not rotate when you perform a supination as you curl? Because supination is at the wrist.

    You were supposed to show science and you have not. You link an article and it does not support your view, you've changed your argument countless times.

    You bore me.
    All I want to know is who has the best rear delts out of everyone in this discussion.
  22. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    I do!

  23. Quote Originally Posted by 0071982WC

    All I want to know is who has the best rear delts out of everyone in this discussion.
    How many do you think would post pics? Hmmmmm
    When you leave this world, will it be a better place because you were here?
  24. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    "Best" is subjective.

    "Best" proportionately?
    "Best" muscularity?
    "Best" mass?

    Too subjective.

    Lots of big fat guys think they are more muscular because they have mass.
    Lots of small lean guys think they are less muscular because they lack mass.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    "Best" is subjective.

    "Best" proportionately?
    "Best" muscularity?
    "Best" mass?

    Too subjective.

    Lots of big fat guys think they are more muscular because they have mass.
    Lots of small lean guys think they are less muscular because they lack mass.


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    Side delt shot
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