Fat loss, hitt on fasted state + no water

[protoculture]

I read that fasting without food and water makes the fast more aggressive. though no advised for more than a day at a time.

Then I thought, 'could we apply this logic to cardio'?

Not that cardio on a fasted state is new, but the idea of not even drinking water before or during your morning hitt cardio session as well. In this state where is the body going to go for it's water needs?

Thoughts?

[Rosie Chee]

I read that fasting without food and water makes the fast more aggressive. though no advised for more than a day at a time.

Then I thought, 'could we apply this logic to cardio'?

Not that cardio on a fasted state is new, but the idea of not even drinking water before or during your morning hitt cardio session as well.

Thoughts?

I think that would depend on the individual - if they got up and did their cardio not long after waking, then it could be plausible. Otherwise, if they don't train until later, then not the best of ideas, IMO. But, each to their own.

~Rosie~

[protoculture]

Right, I am going to try this for a week and see how I get on in the fat loss department. Will report back here on this thread.

[Red Dog]

I read that fasting without food and water makes the fast more aggressive. though no advised for more than a day at a time.

Then I thought, 'could we apply this logic to cardio'?

Not that cardio on a fasted state is new, but the idea of not even drinking water before or during your morning hitt cardio session as well. In this state where is the body going to go for it's water needs?

Thoughts?

I haven't come across very many people (none that I recall) who support fasted, legitimate HIIT cardio.

What do you mean when you say that withholding from water "makes the fast more aggressive"? Are you suggesting that abstaining from water positively affects or enhances any of the benefits of fasting? I'm having trouble conceptualizing why that would occur -- could you elaborate a little bit on this?

[Rosie Chee]

Right, I am going to try this for a week and see how I get on in the fat loss department. Will report back here on this thread.

I doubt that doing cardio first thing without having consumed water is going to make a difference to your fat loss, honestly. If you do do it, make sure that you adequately hydrate yourself afterwards!

I haven't come across very many people (none that I recall) who support fasted, legitimate HIIT cardio.

I do fasted, legitimate, HIIT cardio - as do other individuals on this board. However, we do this because it is more to our personal preference than because it is "better" than non-fasted cardio (which has been proven to have no difference effects re fat loss than fasted cardio), HIIT or otherwise.

~Rosie~

[protoculture]

What do you mean when you say that withholding from water "makes the fast more aggressive"? Are you suggesting that abstaining from water positively affects or enhances any of the benefits of fasting? I'm having trouble conceptualizing why that would occur -- could you elaborate a little bit on this?

Its not something I can say it true from my own experience. I have personally done fasting in the past and I do enjoy it. I came across that information and I can't say for certain that it is true, though it felt that way when I did it.

I am a big proponent of fasting. I lost 50 lbs doing a 24-36 hour fast once a week for 6 months no excercise. From 220 down to 170. Fasting taught me along the way to pay more attention to the food I was eating, so along with fasting I also changed my diet. ( it worked really well to get the excessive weight off, but that last little tubby bit around the waist is stubborn, that is why I am changing my approach.

[JudoJosh]

There is absolutely no reason to withhold water pre cardio

[Red Dog]

I do fasted, legitimate, HIIT cardio - as do other individuals on this board. However, we do this because it is more to our personal preference than because it is "better" than non-fasted cardio (which has been proven to have no difference effects re fat loss than fasted cardio), HIIT or otherwise.

~Rosie~

Then I apologize for my generalization -- it appears I just haven't yet come across the posts where yourself and others have expressed a preference for fasted HIIT. From my own experiences, I've concluded that fasted HIIT significantly exceeds my personal recovery capability (I can't measurably quantify this) while fasted weight training does not, assuming all other factors as constant. (Not looking to investigate the "why" behind that in this thread.)

But like you said, personal preference I suppose!

Its not something I can say it true from my own experience. I have personally done fasting in the past and I do enjoy it. I came across that information and I can't say for certain that it is true, though it felt that way when I did it.

I am a big proponent of fasting. I lost 50 lbs doing a 24-36 hour fast once a week for 6 months no excercise. From 220 down to 170. Fasting taught me along the way to pay more attention to the food I was eating, so along with fasting I also changed my diet. ( it worked really well to get the excessive weight off, but that last little tubby bit around the waist is stubborn, that is why I am changing my approach.

Oh no, I didn't mean to come off as someone in opposition to fasting. I'm actually a proponent of fasting as well and have also experienced the benefits of scheduled fasts, although our methodologies are certainly different. Also, congratulations on that transformation!

But back to your original post, I was simply curious whether you actually saw research suggesting that reduced water intake was somehow correlated to a positive shift in some other physiological variable -- primarily because I have never come across information to suggest that! However, intuition tells me that you would be putting yourself at risk for dehydration by performing such rigorous exercise without adequate hydration!

[protoculture]

But back to your original post, I was simply curious whether you actually saw research suggesting that reduced water intake was somehow correlated to a positive shift in some other physiological variable -- primarily because I have never come across information to suggest that! However, intuition tells me that you would be putting yourself at risk for dehydration by performing such rigorous exercise without adequate hydration!

I would be inclined to agree, however I am very aware of my body state. If during those 20 minutes I felt lightheaded or even had the faintest warning sign ( which I did not )... then I would have to agree. My own experiements this morning show that today there was no noticable negative effect on the training other than it being a bit more challenging.

No, I did not see this anywhere. I only came to the idea as I remembered 'withholding water' for fasting.... and combined that with the idea of 'cardio done in fasted state' and thought that perhaps this was one way to make the fasted cardio 'more aggressive'.

This last little bit of weight is really annoying me... I am planning on doing this ( fasted cardio + water fast + morning hiit ) this week and report back in this thread. I may even take before after pics.

You may be interested in the following link ( where I originally got the "dry" fasting information ).
http://www.worldproutassembly.org/ar...y_fasting.html

[ZiR RED]

performing low intensity steady state cardio and HIIT cardio are two different monsters.

Steady state cardio burns body fat during the session, but not after.

HIIT burns fat AFTER the session, based upon how much energy is expended during the session.

Fasting prior to HIIT will reduce the effectiveness of it. You won't be able to train at as high of an intensity, wont cause as many perturbations during training, and thus the period of time after where biochemical processes are elevated will be reduced.

Performing any exercise dehydrated will hamper performance, whether it is low intensity or high intensity. Nutrients are carried and exchanged in water - blood and interstitial water. Decrease blood volume and your heart has to work harder to provide a similar amount of blood. Decrease interstitial fluid and the transfer of nutrients is decreased. In fact, there's studies that show a decrease in fat utilization during dehydrated states.

Br

[Torobestia]

I think I know where the OP is coming from. He may have read articles where the authors had seen the equation for the complete beta oxidation of fatty acids, e.g. palmitic acid:

CH3(CH2)14CO-CoA + 108 Pi + 108 ADP + 23 O2 --> 108 ATP + 16 CO2 + 130 H2O + CoA

The authors may have also known a little biology and had known how animals, such as camels and migratory birds, can actually generate their dietary water requirement by burning fat, and so they inferred from this that humans could do the same. Unfortunately, humans are kind of a different beast in many ways, for instance the enzymes we express, the complexity of our organ systems, etc. To compound the problem, Zir Red mentions some factors worth keeping in mind

Performing any exercise dehydrated will hamper performance, whether it is low intensity or high intensity. Nutrients are carried and exchanged in water - blood and interstitial water. Decrease blood volume and your heart has to work harder to provide a similar amount of blood. Decrease interstitial fluid and the transfer of nutrients is decreased. In fact, there's studies that show a decrease in fat utilization during dehydrated states.
Br

It's well documented how humans operate much slower and less efficiently with less water. Water is crucial to performance, and as HIIT relies on how well you perform, holding back on the water can only hurt you.

[protoculture]

Good comments guys, that makes sense. In this way it would seem that low intensity + fasted cardio would be a better choice.

[Rosie Chee]

Good comments guys, that makes sense. In this way it would seem that low intensity + fasted cardio would be a better choice.

It's really dependent on the individual whether or not they choose to do - or can do quality - fasted HIIT cardio. The point that everyone was trying to make was that doing cardio - fasted or otherwise - in a dehydrated state was not ideal or recommended.

~Rosie~

[ZiR RED]

Good comments guys, that makes sense. In this way it would seem that low intensity + fasted cardio would be a better choice.

Well, that depends on your goals.

If you are doing cardio for conditioning, heart health, and fat loss, then low intensity fasted cardio is a poor choice.

On the other hand, if you are a competitive bodybuilder attempting to drop from 4% to 3% bodyfat during the final month or two before a competition - exteremly low cals, catabolic state, etc. - then low intensity fasted cardio may be the best choice to avoid muscle loss.

Br

[protoculture]

Cheers you big know it alls =)

[ThatGuy2320]

Iv lost 40 pounds off of fasting so far, with 18 to go before going into bootcamp this summer. Not drinking water kind of defeats the process of the clensing part of the fast. And from the studies and tests done, doing cardio isnt the thing to do in a fast because it can cause a loss. The thing to do is some weightlifting to keep in shape. Iv done three seperate fasts and gained a good amount of muscle, i'm still heavy at 6'4" 227 pounds, i started not being able to do a single pullup now i can knock out about 7 without a rest, starting each with a dead hang.

[Jiigzz]

I would never recommened HIIT without adequte water, that is just beyond me. That would mean trying to exercise in a partially dehydrated state if not fully dehydrated which WILL impact performance via multiple mechanisms; and dependant on severity of dehydration and intensity of said workout, perhaps even life threatening (I once played rugby at a beach on a hot day without adequate hydration and developed severe heatstroke to the point of blacking out).

Rugby is predominantly HIIT fyi