i think this is overkill.....want your opinions

[SVT01]

recently got 2 of my friends to join our new gym here in town after talking to them about it since it opened in January. well they were askin me how i workout and ive been a chest/tricep, back/bicep, shoulders/legs type person for awhile and ive always got good results.

well these 2 come in and say no your not doing that ****ing workout anymore we're gonna go upper body-lower body-upper body-lower body and we're gonna get you big. i appreciate them tryin to help and all but i think they're goin about it the wrong way. goin in on a monday and working chest biceps triceps shoulders back and forearms all in one day and right away on wednesday go in and do the same routine from monday??? call me crazy but that aint enough rest in between in my opinion. what do you guys think?

 

[youngandfree]

Well you wouldn't do it again on wednesday. Rest on wed then do it on thursday. Lift Mon Tues Thurs Fri. I would personally do 1 exercise per bodypart on day 1 then do a different exercise on day 2. Keep the sets fairly low like 5-7 including warm ups. You will be stronger for each exercise since you are only doing 1 per bodypart.

Starting strength is MWF doing basically the same bodyparts each day and is a proven and highly effective system. The key is you aren't doing 15-20 sets per bodypart each day.

You should give it a try.

 

[R1balla]

ive always hated upper body/lower body workouts or full body workouts. this may sound inexperienced but its the facts. i have never seen anybody in the gym that is big doing those types of workouts. they r always doing splits like chest/tris then back/bis. i heard its good for strength training if that is your goal

 

[youngandfree]

DC training has you doing the chest shoulders tris and back width and a back thickness exercise on one day and Bi's, forearms, calves, hams, and quads on another day. Alternating with one group on MFW and the other on WMF. You hit each bodypart 3 times in 2 weeks.

Check out www.intensemuscle.com and see it those guys are big enough for your standards. Dante, Homonculous, Future, they are all huge.

 

[SVT01]

thanks guys. ill definitely check out that website maybe that'll help them change their mindset on what they want to do in the gym.

 

[buuzer0]

I can't do that workout that your friends suggest just because I'm not trying to be in the gym for 2+ hours. An hour or less for me, I don't have time for more. I'm a shoulders/legs, biceps/chest, triceps/back kind of guy, throw in some abs and some cardio and I'm good. I just need to work on my diet, but dammit I love food.

 

[pmiller383]

I personally think the upper/lower split has worked way better for me than doing individual body parts.I have followed Westside training for a couple years now because I believe it is the best interpretation of the upper/lower split. A lot of the reason the upper lower doesn't work for some people is because they treat it like it is a normal split where you have to kill each muscle group. Ideally you would want to pick one or two major compound movements each day and then three supplemental movements. I will give you an example below but to really understand it I would suggest reading Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 manual.

Upper 1
Horizontal Press (bench variations)
Horizontal Pull ( Row Variations)
Shoulder Exercise
Upper Back Exercise

Lower 1
Deadlift Variation
Quad Dominant movement (lunges, front squats, etc)
Low Back
Abs

Upper 2
Vertical Press
Vertical Pull
Tricep
Bicep

Lower 2
Squat variation
Hamstring Dominant (good morning, sldl, etc)
Glutes
Abs

 

[Inarius]

I personally think the upper/lower split has worked way better for me than doing individual body parts.I have followed Westside training for a couple years now because I believe it is the best interpretation of the upper/lower split. A lot of the reason the upper lower doesn't work for some people is because they treat it like it is a normal split where you have to kill each muscle group. Ideally you would want to pick one or two major compound movements each day and then three supplemental movements. I will give you an example below but to really understand it I would suggest reading Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 manual.

Upper 1
Horizontal Press (bench variations)
Horizontal Pull ( Row Variations)
Shoulder Exercise
Upper Back Exercise

Lower 1
Deadlift Variation
Quad Dominant movement (lunges, front squats, etc)
Low Back
Abs

Upper 2
Vertical Press
Vertical Pull
Tricep
Bicep

Lower 2
Squat variation
Hamstring Dominant (good morning, sldl, etc)
Glutes
Abs

Hey Paul... Just FYI but I'm stealing this template and am gonna run it for a few months. Hope you dont mind!

 

[SVT01]

A lot of the reason the upper lower doesn't work for some people is because they treat it like it is a normal split where you have to kill each muscle group.

thats what they are doing and its time to change it lol

 

[pmiller383]

Hey Paul... Just FYI but I'm stealing this template and am gonna run it for a few months. Hope you dont mind!

By all means go to town bud, I pretty much stole it from Westside/5-3-1/Progressive overload. I know you do some competitive lifting as well so just make sure to do a lot of upper back, lats, and abs.

 

[brownstown89]

Hey Paul... Just FYI but I'm stealing this template and am gonna run it for a few months. Hope you dont mind!

pmiller- do you lift raw ? or suited?

because i was following this type of routine and my close grip bench was sky rocketing i 250,260, 275 all close grip 3 weeks in a row using it as a ME. But if i widened my grip i was not much stronger. I emailed wendler on elitefts and matt reynolds on another form both said i needed more shoulder work in my workout whats your thoughts? Reynolds workout suggested something like this.

ME
Repitition of Max effort using preplins chart
SHOulder work
Tricep work
lat work

like that

 

[pmiller383]

I have competed both ways, right now I am a gear whore. Most of my training though is based upon being stronger raw.

I definitely agree with more shoulder work, I try to do something for my shoulder every upper body day. I have found the best exercises to be Dumbbell presses, bradford presses, and savickas presses. A Savickas press is where you sit on the ground in your rack and set the safety pins right below your chin, Then you do OH pin presses off of them. I like these because they work the sh!t out of your upper body trying to stabalize the weight and keep everything on your shoulder because you can't lean back at all or else you will fall over.

 

[brownstown89]

I have competed both ways, right now I am a gear whore. Most of my training though is based upon being stronger raw.

I definitely agree with more shoulder work, I try to do something for my shoulder every upper body day. I have found the best exercises to be Dumbbell presses, bradford presses, and savickas presses. A Savickas press is where you sit on the ground in your rack and set the safety pins right below your chin, Then you do OH pin presses off of them. I like these because they work the sh!t out of your upper body trying to stabalize the weight and keep everything on your shoulder because you can't lean back at all or else you will fall over.

haha i love how u described savickas presses because you know that question was coming next..

but yea i havent dumbell benched heavy for a year, havent really gone heavy on dips in 8 months or so and my off the chest strength sucks. I got sucked into trying the westside routine 2 times and my off the chest strength has plummted just goes to show if your lifting raw how hard it is to find the right routine.. Finally i got a good template by matt reynolds and im making sure i do moderate weight DB benching after heavy bench and heavy weighted dips on assistance day, im seeing how that goes..

 

[pmiller383]

haha i love how u described savickas presses because you know that question was coming next..

but yea i havent dumbell benched heavy for a year, havent really gone heavy on dips in 8 months or so and my off the chest strength sucks. I got sucked into trying the westside routine 2 times and my off the chest strength has plummted just goes to show if your lifting raw how hard it is to find the right routine.. Finally i got a good template by matt reynolds and im making sure i do moderate weight DB benching after heavy bench and heavy weighted dips on assistance day, im seeing how that goes..

If your going to use Westside raw you have to play around with your percentages a bit on speed work and you have to emphasize different movements for your Max work. My press goes down a lot when I stop doing westside training and I think it is a result of not doing speed work. To keep that strength off of your chest up the two biggest things I would suggest is doing speed work with varying grips and hammer your upper back and lats. When your pressing if you touch high or immediately flare your arms when you go to press than your lats need to come up a lot. Also since your doing raw stuff you really can cut a lot of exercises from your max effort list, some of the better ones for a raw presser would be:
foam press
1 board
2 board
Floor Press
camber bar presses (if you have a camber bar)
Incline presses

For your secondary exercise I would do:
DB pressing
Suspended Pushups (awesome for strength off the bottom)
Beakers
Paused 1&2 boards (hold pause for three seconds)
If you don't know what a beaker is, its just doing a set where you go to a board, then your chest, then a board, then your chest, etc.

 

[brownstown89]

If your going to use Westside raw you have to play around with your percentages a bit on speed work and you have to emphasize different movements for your Max work. My press goes down a lot when I stop doing westside training and I think it is a result of not doing speed work. To keep that strength off of your chest up the two biggest things I would suggest is doing speed work with varying grips and hammer your upper back and lats. When your pressing if you touch high or immediately flare your arms when you go to press than your lats need to come up a lot. Also since your doing raw stuff you really can cut a lot of exercises from your max effort list, some of the better ones for a raw presser would be:
foam press
1 board
2 board
Floor Press
camber bar presses (if you have a camber bar)
Incline presses

For your secondary exercise I would do:
DB pressing
Suspended Pushups (awesome for strength off the bottom)
Beakers
Paused 1&2 boards (hold pause for three seconds)
If you don't know what a beaker is, its just doing a set where you go to a board, then your chest, then a board, then your chest, etc.

Hell yea my ME rotations look like this i use incline, fat bar floor press. I dont have cambered but i sometimes do wide grip with a 3 second pause at the chest for a 3 or 5 rep max or dead bench press.

But my problems occurs here, when i bench i have a pretty decent size upper body for my BW, so i dont have a monster arch or anything i just tuck my feet back and squeeze my shoulder blades exact form that wendler uses on his elitefts logs.... So a 1 board and 2 board is pretty much like full ROM... Is it really worth it to do 2 board or 1 board over a full ROM bench?

Another thing thats been bothering me is when i do DB military presses or DB bench presses the dumbells feel like there falling backwards could this be over development somewhere?

But as far as assistance work goes i got that down Alot of things to help the off chest strength. I hammer the triceps hard and do pulldowns so there endurance is up.. LAt wise im really strong. I can do 4 45's a side on the hammer pulldown for ur upper lats. I use the 120lb dumbells to failure. I can do prison rows with tons of 45s.. my deadlift is 435 i can rack pull 470 below the knee etc..

 

[pmiller383]

What is your best incline press and what is your best bench press?

And yes, I would still do the different boards regardless of your set up. Not only will it keep your shoulders healthy but it will also give your CNS enough variety to keep it moving forward. I am the same weight in that I don't have a great arch, but I can tell you that in the last two weeks I tripled 405 off of my chest and one the third rep I hit to high and my form looked off. I have done just about the same weight to a 1 board in the past few months and my form was perfect on all three reps, which I think helps reinforce proper form and will keep your injury free.

 

[brownstown89]

What is your best incline press and what is your best bench press?

And yes, I would still do the different boards regardless of your set up. Not only will it keep your shoulders healthy but it will also give your CNS enough variety to keep it moving forward. I am the same weight in that I don't have a great arch, but I can tell you that in the last two weeks I tripled 405 off of my chest and one the third rep I hit to high and my form looked off. I have done just about the same weight to a 1 board in the past few months and my form was perfect on all three reps, which I think helps reinforce proper form and will keep your injury free.

haha ok so u can give me **** but i havent ever done incline till 2 weeks ago i hit 185 x 3 200 x 2. so i guess my max would be 205. My best Bench Press was 270 with a rather close grip. 265 off the floor.

and ok good the board idea i thought u would use the different size boards just to trick ur CNS. WOuld it be smart to throw in a cycle of Wendlers 5/3/1 and do flat bench for a month then back to westside to test my progress on full ROM flat bench?

 

[brownstown89]

PS- the wendler 5,3,1 he benches relatively light as your using only 90% of ur best max and his assistance work leaves alot to be desired like nothing heavy. Could i use say a 3 x 5, 3 x 3 or 5/3/1 as a ME day if i wanted too and go lgihter on assistance work?

 

[pmiller383]

Its actually good that there is a decent amount of weight between your incline and flat press. Incline takes your lats out of it so that shows that you are using your lats when pressing.

As for switching between the two programs, just pick one and stick with it for at least 6 months. Westside and 5/3/1 will both get you strong but they do it in very different ways and both take some time to get use to. I think 5/3/1 will give you a steadier progression once you get use to it, where westside you almost go through hot spots where you make huge gains and then low spots where the gains are very minimal.

 

[brownstown89]

Its actually good that there is a decent amount of weight between your incline and flat press. Incline takes your lats out of it so that shows that you are using your lats when pressing.

As for switching between the two programs, just pick one and stick with it for at least 6 months. Westside and 5/3/1 will both get you strong but they do it in very different ways and both take some time to get use to. I think 5/3/1 will give you a steadier progression once you get use to it, where westside you almost go through hot spots where you make huge gains and then low spots where the gains are very minimal.[/QUOTE

damn didnt know that about incline taking the lats out thanks for all the valueable information!! i love learnign as much as possible

and yea i guess i realized that i maxed 270 roughly a month ago and the next week 250 off a board was tough lol.. but what would u suggest i do to incorporate a little more full ROM bench pressing in my routine im not talking every week but maybe 2 times a month? do a heavy single on assistance day or do it on ME day or what would u reccomend that seems to be my biggest challenege

 

[votum]

I'm doing an HST right now, full body every other day, its logged in my sig, hit the latest page for a good idea of what it is.

Whole point of doing upper/lower or full body is low sets...your body is going to explode (in a bad way) if you are doing a ton of work. HST is 15x1 two weeks, 10x2 two weeks, 5x3 two weeks, then two weeks of negatives, or 5x3 again, I'm doing 3s and 1s on my last two weeks.

 

[Dillonaur]

I'm looking for a critique on my routine. It's a push/pull but I might switch to a upper lower. I did get okay results at first. But, all good things must come to an end. This could work for you though. I had to add in a specific rear deltoid exercise because I hurt my rotator cuff, and it helps me out. So, it's not really needed for you, and either are the flies.

Push:
Squat Variation
Bench Press
Flies
Shoulder Press or Upright Row
Tricep Pressdowns

Pull:
Straight Leg Deadlift or Hamstring dominant exercise
Barbell Rows
Lat Pulldowns/Weighted Pull Ups
Narrow Grip Barbell Curl
Rear Deltoid work

I like how with the Westside upper/lower, you don't have to do vertical and horizontal exercises for your back on the same day, which is why I may switch over.

 

[brownstown89]

I'm looking for a critique on my routine. It's a push/pull but I might switch to a upper lower. I did get okay results at first. But, all good things must come to an end. This could work for you though. I had to add in a specific rear deltoid exercise because I hurt my rotator cuff, and it helps me out. So, it's not really needed for you, and either are the flies.

Push:
Squat Variation
Bench Press
Flies
Shoulder Press or Upright Row
Tricep Pressdowns

Pull:
Straight Leg Deadlift or Hamstring dominant exercise
Barbell Rows
Lat Pulldowns/Weighted Pull Ups
Narrow Grip Barbell Curl
Rear Deltoid work

I like how with the Westside upper/lower, you don't have to do vertical and horizontal exercises for your back on the same day, which is why I may switch over.

i dont like benching and squat the same day, doesnt seem like enough volume for me upper body wise at least.. for legs i use the simplest routine and it works

 

[Dillonaur]

I am switching to the upper/lower routine but changed it around a bit.

Upper A:
Bench Press
Barbell Rows
Shoulder Exercise
Shrugs
Tricep Exercise

Lower A:
Deadlift
Quad Exercise
Glute Exercise
Calf Raises
Abs

Upper B:
Incline BB Bench Press
WG Pulldowns
Shoulder Exercise
Rear Deltoid work
CG BB Curls

Lower B:
Squat
Good Mornings
Glutes
Calf
Abs

I'm going to do either 4x6 or 3x8

 

[brownstown89]

I am switching to the upper/lower routine but changed it around a bit.

Upper A:
Bench Press
Barbell Rows
Shoulder Exercise
Shrugs
Tricep Exercise

Lower A:
Deadlift
Quad Exercise
Glute Exercise
Calf Raises
Abs

Upper B:
Incline BB Bench Press
WG Pulldowns
Shoulder Exercise
Rear Deltoid work
CG BB Curls

Lower B:
Squat
Good Mornings
Glutes
Calf
Abs

I'm going to do either 4x6 or 3x8

are you doing this for powerlifting? because u need some hamstring work and i still think the split can be better maybe checkout doug hepburns routine he has some that look a bit like urs ! but hey if that works too u hell yea

 

[Dillonaur]

I'd switch the deadlift to a straight leg deadlift. I made this routine for size and strength.

 

[triton185]

I alternate 2 workouts. Works for me.

 

[R1balla]

i do one week of straight leg deads to full deads. straight legs helps my explosion on full deads