I would like suggestions for fuller and rounder shoulders. I do plenty of military presses and other exercises that hit the front and side deltoids but I need to hit the rear part of my shoulders more.
I did quite a bit of upright rows in my 20's (35 now) and liked them as a mass builder, but was repeatedly told and read that they are hard on the shoulder and likely to cause injury. Is that still the consensus with physiologists or is that outdated?Wide Upright Rows
Facepulls
Rotator Cuff Work (In/Ex Rotation)
This is a point of debate amongst many trainers and I contend that it is not a lift that is best done in the 6-8 range, but more along the 10-12 range. TUT is a major factor and proper form is even more important. The main problem that I see is that people pull with their wrists instead of their elbows and that is what puts a lot of strain on the rotators, tendons, ligaments, etc.I did quite a bit of upright rows in my 20's (35 now) and liked them as a mass builder, but was repeatedly told and read that they are hard on the shoulder and likely to cause injury. Is that still the consensus with physiologists or is that outdated?
Not trying to flame, just curious
??? Internal/external rotation is not going to create any drastic shape to the shoulder, in terms of rounding things out. Strengthen rotator cuff, yes, add shape, no.Wide Upright Rows
Facepulls
Rotator Cuff Work (In/Ex Rotation)
This is a good reply, and I value your insight and training. However, if there is a concern about an exercise being potentially dangerous at high poundage, and it can only be performed at a 10-12 rep range, then maybe it is simply an exercise that shouldn't be performed. We are talking about a compound movement (at least 3 joints not counting the spine work and legs), so it should really be considered a mass-building movement, rather than an isolation exercise. If someone cannot go relatively heavy on upright rows (wide grip or otherwise) for mass what is the point of doing 10-12 reps? Might as well do sets of 50 upright rows with two cans of Mountain Dew.This is a point of debate amongst many trainers and I contend that it is not a lift that is best done in the 6-8 range, but more along the 10-12 range. TUT is a major factor and proper form is even more important. The main problem that I see is that people pull with their wrists instead of their elbows and that is what puts a lot of strain on the rotators, tendons, ligaments, etc.
It depends on the range of motion, form used, and grip.The reason upright rows are bad is the simultaneous internal rotation that creates impingement injuries. I would never recommend them. Besides, if your press is progressing you don't need the extra work anyway.
The actions occurring are all the same. Simultaneous internal rotation. And since the internal rotators are 8 times out of 10 stronger than the external rotators they do not need extra focus.It depends on the range of motion, form used, and grip.
Feel free to post some literature that supports your statement.The actions occurring are all the same. Simultaneous internal rotation. And since the internal rotators are 8 times out of 10 stronger than the external rotators they do not need extra focus.
Are you serious? You are not aware of shoulder imbalances? OK. Here's some.Feel free to post some literature that supports your statement.
Links to reads on shoulder imbalances:Shoulder characteristics in weight trainers
Injuries related to weight training has increased during the past decade, with 36% of weight training related injuries and disorders occurring at the shoulder joint (Goertzen et al., 1989; Keogh et al., 2006). 25-30% of the individuals participating in weight training have reported injuries sever enough to seek medical help (Jones et al., 2000; Powell et al., 1998).
Weight training places stress on the shoulder by requiring a conventionally non-weight bearing joint to bear significant loads during the course of repetitive lifting (Kolber et al., 2009). Traditional weight training exercises have been shown to create muscular imbalances and predispose the shoulder to injury by placing the joint in biomechanical unfavorable positions, such as bottom of ROM external rotations (Gross et al., 1993). Furthermore, programs biased toward specific bodyparts generally place emphasis on developing the large primary movers while neglecting the smaller stabilization muscles required for mobility, balance, and unimpaired shoulder function (Barlow et al., 2002).
Kolber et al. (2009) tested the shoulder muscular strength, function, and mobility of 90 experienced male weight trainers compared to a sedentary population. The researchers reported significantly greater strength among weight trainers of the abductors, internal rotators, and upper trapezius fibers. The greater strength values are because typicall training programs target the deltoids, upper trapezius, and internal rotators (pectoralis and latissimus dorsi). The strength of the external rotators and lower trapezius, however, were not different than the sedentary population. The imbalance in strength between internal/external rotators, abductor/external rotator, and upper/lower trapezius fibers illustrates the training induced strength imbalances between muscle groups that normally function together to execute a movement.
There is significant evidence that individuals with shoulder disorders possess greater deficits in external rotation strength compared to internal rotation strength (MacDermid et al., 2004; Reddy et al., 2000; Tata et al., 1993; Wang & Cochrane, 2001; Warner et al., 1990). During over head pressing movements, the external rotators function together with the deltoid to effective elevate the arm over head. Imbalances created by exercise programs that emphasize the deltoid and neglect the external rotators often result in altered muscle coordination, redistricted range of motions, and shoulder impingement (Kolber et al., 2009). Insufficient muscle strength of the lower trapezius fibers have also been linked to shoulder impingement (Cools et al., 2007).
Weight training can also result in mobility dysfunctions. Bodybuilders display a decreased active range of motion among shoulder flexion, abduction, and internal rotation, compared with excessive external rotation ROMs. Additionally, there are greater restriction on the posterior soft tissue due to internal rotation loss and lack of exercises or stretching that improves the flexibility of the posterior joint capsule (Kolber et al., 2009; Wang & Cochrane, 2001; Warner et al., 1990). Furthermore, posterior shoulder tightness may be responsible for limited mobility, resulting in glenoid labrum detachment and impingement syndromes (Bach & Golberg, 2006).
Kolber demonstrated that traditional weight training programs do not include the exercises necessary to strengthen the stabilization muscles required during normal shoulder function. Additionally, emphasizing only the large movers such as the pectoralis, latissimus dorsi, and deltoids creates a strength and flexibility imbalance at the shoulder joint. Encorporating exercises that strengthen the external rotator cuff muscles and scapular fixation musculature along with select flexibility exercises for internal rotation and the posterior capsule should: balance strength ratios needed for coordinated shoulder function; increase soft tissue flexibility balance as required for normal shoulder mobility; improve the strength of the humeral head depressors thus helping to prevent impingement with over head exercises; and, reduce the more common risk factors associated with shoulder disorders.
Kolber, J., Beekhuizen, S., Cheng, S., Hellman, MA. Shoulder Joint and Muscle Characteristics in the Recreational Weight Training Population. The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research, 23(1):148-157, January 2009.
Cools, AM, Declercq, GA, Cambier, DC, Mahieu, NN, and
Witvrouw, EE. Trapezius activity and intramuscular balance during
isokinetic exercise in overhead athletes with impingement symptoms.
Scand J Med Sci Sports 17: 25–33, 2007.
Barlow, JC, Benjamin, BW, Birt, P, and Hughes, CJ. Shoulder
strength and range-of-motion characteristics in bodybuilders.
J Strength Cond Res 16: 367–372, 2002.
Bach, H., & Golberg, B. Posterior capsular contracture of the shoulder. J Am Acad Orthop Surgery 14, 265-277, 2006.
Goertzen, M, Schoppe, K, Lange, G, and Schulitz, KP. Injuries and
damage caused by excess stress in bodybuilding and power lifting.
Sportverletz Sportschaden 3: 32–36, 1989.
Gross, ML, Brenner, SL, Esformes, I, and Sonzogni, JJ. Anterior
shoulder instability in weight lifters. Am J Sports Med 21: 599–603,
1993.
Keogh, J, Hume, PA, and Pearson, S. Retrospective injury
epidemiology of one hundred one competitive Oceania power
lifters: the effects of age, body mass, competitive standard, and
gender. J Strength Cond Res 20: 672–681, 2006.
Jones, C, Christensen, C, and Young, M. Weight training injury
trends. Phys Sportsmed 28: 1–7, 2000.
Powell, KE, Heath, GW, Kresnow, MJ, Sacks, JJ, and Branche, CM.
Injury rates from walking, gardening, weightlifting, outdoor
bicycling, and aerobics. Med Sci Sports Exerc 30: 1246–1249, 1998.
MacDermid, JC, Ramos, J, Drosdowech, D, Faber, K, and
Patterson, S. The impact of rotator cuff pathology on isometric and
isokinetic strength, function, and quality of life. J Shoulder Elbow Surg
13: 593–598, 2004.
Reddy, AS, Mohr, KJ, Pink, MM, and Jobe, FW. Electromyographic
analysis of the deltoid and rotator cuff muscles in persons with
subacromial impingement. J Shoulder Elbow Surg 9: 519–523, 2000.
Tata, EG, Ng, L, and Kramer, JF. Shoulder antagonist strength ratios
during concentric and eccentric muscle actions in the scapular plane.
J Orthop Sports Phys Ther 18: 654–660, 1993.
Wang, HK and Cochrane, T. Mobility impairment, muscle
imbalance, muscle weakness, scapular asymmetry and shoulder
injury in elite volleyball athletes. J Sports Med Phys Fitness 41:
403–410, 2001.
Warner, JJ, Micheli, LJ, Arslanian, LE, Kennedy, J, and Kennedy, R.
Patterns of flexibility, laxity, and strength in normal shoulders and
shoulders with instability and impingement. Am J Sports Med 18:
366–375, 1990.
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/tips/no_mo_upright_row_052606;jsessionid=F88ADD93D31496EB16A6DD45398124E2-hh.hydraI don't believe in contraindicated exercises, only contraindicated individuals. But if there's one exercise that'll ever push me over the line, it's going to be the upright row. This is as internally rotated as the humerus will get, and you're elevating the humerus right into the impingement zone on every rep. For that reason, I'll never write upright rows into a program. The dumbbell version is a slightly safer alternative, although I feel that there are still much safer ways to challenge the upper traps and deltoids. To summarize, if you've ever had a shoulder problem or are at risk, you'd be wise to omit upright rows altogether.
Thanks man. Glad you found it useful.Good info, I wasn't really that aware of the details in any depth. As to what the exact issues were pertaining to...cool deal bro.
Alas, shoulder health and integrity will do more than any 1 particular lift for mass.??? Internal/external rotation is not going to create any drastic shape to the shoulder, in terms of rounding things out. Strengthen rotator cuff, yes, add shape, no.
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