can i replace squats with another exercise

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    You misread my post.

    I said see how long he can keep under the bar; how long his core could support it. A guy that back squats 405 can easily stay under the bar of a front squat (isometrically) longer than a guy that front squats 135 can stay under the bar with a 405 lb back squat. And as far as core imbalance goes, I used an example contrary to yours.

    You are looking at pound for pound measurements of strength. Of course a 405 lb front squat will require more stabilize maturity than a 405 lb back squat, but if the weights used is in proper alignment the back squat will demand more stabilize use (from the core) because your body works harder to stabilize heavier loads.

    And the torso is upright during high bar squats, as they are with front squats which would contract the the front of the core much harder. According to the all or none principle all fibers from the front of the core must contract with a back squat. Your body will work harder to support heavier weight over your center of gravity - with back squats.

    Anyway, front squats are not a suitable replacement for back squats for a few reasons. Namely, the overactive hip flexors and understimulated hip extensors can cause lordosis.
    What I have bolded was entirely my point. Pound for pound, front squats are harder on the core than back squats. That's all I was trying to say. Thanks!
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    @ Kingkong:

    I think we are missing the purpose of my statement. He has back pain from doing squats. We all pretty much agree universally that it is most likely from poor form. My suggestion for him to switch to front squats has a couple points to it. It will force him to follow a more proper form. There is a good chance that he is using his back to leverage the weight up, as in leaning too far forward and using his back while coming up rather than keep his spine inline and using his hams/glutes and driving his hips forward to lift the weight. With the front squat you have less room for error like that. If you do, you'll lose the bar off the front. It will also allow him to keep squatting and give his back some rest, hopefully allowing it to recovery healthily. The front squat is a great tool to teach form with. However, we all probably agree that to only do front squats is not what is being said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    You have more weight over your body doing back squats, which causes the core to work harder. And yes, please provide me a link with Rippetoe saying front squats are harder on the core.

    And there's no way front squats work the posterior chain to any reasonable degree. Your posterior chain is worked because you are breaking parallel and using hip extension. You cannot use hip extension during a front squat and you cannot drive weight up using your hips.

    Front squats are quad dominant.

    Rippetoe goes into some detail on the subject on pages 223-230 of the 2nd Edition of starting strength.

    Key points:

    -Hamstrings are already shortened & the positioning of the bar makes it impossible to use hip drive as a cue.
    -The body is kept as vertical as possible, in comparison to the back squat where some amount of forward lean is desired
    -More core stabilization is needed because of the bar positioning
    Mark does not have his books and articles in quotations on the internet.Only fragments, like what you found. You will actually have to read them yourself, by buying his books and subscribing to crossfit or joining his forum and posting a new thread. Which I will just to post his response. lol and way to plagerise a post on T-nation word for word.
    I know what he will say though from what he has mentioned in threads before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    Mark does not have his books and articles in quotations on the internet.Only fragments, like what you found. You will actually have to read them yourself, by buying his books and subscribing to crossfit or joining his forum and posting a new thread. Which I will just to post his response. lol and way to plagerise a post on T-nation word for word.
    I know what he will say though from what he has mentioned in threads before.
    I have bought and read Mark's book. I am aware of what is written in his book. And no it's not "plagiarism" to post something when you can't provide a link.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    @ Kingkong:

    I think we are missing the purpose of my statement. He has back pain from doing squats. We all pretty much agree universally that it is most likely from poor form. My suggestion for him to switch to front squats has a couple points to it. It will force him to follow a more proper form. There is a good chance that he is using his back to leverage the weight up, as in leaning too far forward and using his back while coming up rather than keep his spine inline and using his hams/glutes and driving his hips forward to lift the weight. With the front squat you have less room for error like that. If you do, you'll lose the bar off the front. It will also allow him to keep squatting and give his back some rest, hopefully allowing it to recovery healthily. The front squat is a great tool to teach form with. However, we all probably agree that to only do front squats is not what is being said.
    I disagree that front squats will teach better form for your back squats. Front squats have different mechanical advantages and disadvantages. Back squats are an exercise that focuses on hip extension (low back squats anyway).

    If someone develops a strong front squat they will have the quads, but not the stabilizer maturity to develop significant carryover into the back squat anyway.

    His best bet is doing bodyweight squats, focusing on shoving his knees out and reading a few tips from starting strength and watching Rippetoe demonstration videos.

    The way you described the squat is how a proper low bar squat is performed.

    We're in agreement that the problem is form. And I am not against incorporating front squats, just not replacing back squats for front squats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    I have bought and read Mark's book. I am aware of what is written in his book. And no it's not "plagiarism" to post something when you can't provide a link.
    It is when you do not use quotation marks showing that it came from someone else. I actually talk to Mark...so are the words that are going to come out of his mouth not good enough for you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    It is when you do not use quotation marks showing that it came from someone else. I actually talk to Mark...so are the words that are going to come out of his mouth not good enough for you?
    What "words" are you talking about? You're going to tell him someone doesn't think front squats are a substitution for back squats and you actually think he's going to agree with that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post

    What "words" are you talking about?


    Front squats are quad dominant.

    Rippetoe goes into some detail on the subject on pages 223-230 of the 2nd Edition of starting strength.

    Key points:

    -Hamstrings are already shortened & the positioning of the bar makes it impossible to use hip drive as a cue.
    -The body is kept as vertical as possible, in comparison to the back squat where some amount of forward lean is desired
    -More core stabilization is needed because of the bar positioning
    These words. I am a member of T-nation as well and just reread that thread yesterday and again today because of this lol.

    You're going to tell him someone doesn't think front squats are a substitution for back squats and you actually think he's going to agree with that?
    No where did I disagree with this statement anywhere. That would be stupid to pose a question even a novice could answer. The question posed is "a front squat is harder on a core than the back squat."

    This question is multifaceted.As to the definition of 'harder" in perspective to the exercises themselves. FS IMO are harder in the fact of the weight pulling you forward and the body naturally working against it the whole exercise. While in the BS it is mainly supporting the heavy weight in general that strengthens the core that is from my own experience of doing heavy front and back squats and learning the geometry of the lifts themselves...but we will see what he has to say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    These words. I am a member of T-nation as well and just reread that thread yesterday and again today because of this lol.



    No where did I disagree with this statement anywhere. That would be stupid to pose a question even a novice could answer. The question posed is "a front squat is harder on a core than the back squat."

    This question is multifaceted.As to the definition of 'harder" in perspective to the exercises themselves. FS IMO are harder in the fact of the weight pulling you forward and the body naturally working against it the whole exercise. While in the BS it is mainly supporting the heavy weight in general that strengthens the core that is from my own experience of doing heavy front and back squats and learning the geometry of the lifts themselves...but we will see what he has to say.
    What poundage are you comparing between the back squat and front squat? If you are comparing pound for pound a front squat vs. back squat, as in a front squat of 225 vs. a back squat of 225 then the front squat would of course recruit more core, but if you're comparing a 315 back squat with a 135 front squat (or whatever would be balanced between the two) then the back squat would seem to be harder on the core.

    Lets not forget the core itself also consists of the lower back muscles, which contract harder with a back squat because the resistance being placed on the back.

    My suggestion was simply that front squats are not a substitution for back squats and if you're not disagreeing with that then we are arguing over nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    What poundage are you comparing between the back squat and front squat? If you are comparing pound for pound a front squat vs. back squat, as in a front squat of 225 vs. a back squat of 225 then the front squat would of course recruit more core, but if you're comparing a 315 back squat with a 135 front squat (or whatever would be balanced between the two) then the back squat would seem to be harder on the core.

    Lets not forget the core itself also consists of the lower back muscles, which contract harder with a back squat because the resistance being placed on the back.

    My suggestion was simply that front squats are not a substitution for back squats and if you're not disagreeing with that then we are arguing over nothing.
    No, I am not disagreeing with that last statement at all haha, and yes I meant using the same weight, using only the exercise as the medium. I also agree with the lower back part and the difference on weight on a trained individual. I think only focusing on one or the other would severely compromise someone.If I had to only do one I would probably do high bar squats as they seem the best of both worlds in functionality. As it stands I do low bar BS and FS. Maybe we all like training legs too much ja?:
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    No, I am not disagreeing with that last statement at all haha, and yes I meant using the same weight, using only the exercise as the medium. I also agree with the lower back part and the difference on weight on a trained individual. I think only focusing on one or the other would severely compromise someone.If I had to only do one I would probably do high bar squats as they seem the best of both worlds in functionality. As it stands I do low bar BS and FS. Maybe we all like training legs too much ja?:
    If we're talking about the same weight then yes the front squat is harder using the same weight, but if you can front squat something you could back squat much more weight (if your legs have been trained properly).

    I think we all just like training legs far too much; it is a good trait though.

    I speak more of low back squats, but my style of squatting have always been high bar (Olympic squats) and I agree with you that they are more functional.
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    easily can replace them with curls. in thesquat rack
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    Not the same as zercher. Here is a vid, you can find many more just by typing in front squat to youtube. For arm placement some people hold them like in this video, others cross their arms almost like they are doing the universal sign for choking except their hands are not actually on their throat, but past it more towards the shoulders. You'll see it in the vids if you look them up.

    YouTube- Front Squats are used for CrossFit as an exercise to improve posture and power during training
    Those look great, except I would worry that she drops down a little too fast. Other than that - awesome!
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