- 01-27-2010, 11:55 AM
- 01-27-2010, 12:14 PM
I like heavy dumbell pullovers across a flat bench, make sure you stretch as far as you can though, it'll wear your lats out like you wouldn't believe. Hope that helps some.
- 01-27-2010, 12:19 PM
01-27-2010, 12:42 PM
01-27-2010, 12:55 PM
Lat pull downs in a pyramid fasion, all the way to your 5 rep max, then drop set back down to where you started. My lats blew up!!
01-27-2010, 01:12 PM
thanks guys iv been trying to get them bigger cause i think them and traps look diesel when huge
01-27-2010, 01:34 PM
swtich to reverse grip on things like rows and pulldowns. this will widen your lats more. i added five inches in a matter of a few months after i made the switch. also throw in old school t-bar rows.
think of this close grip rows and pulldowns hit your outer lats thus make you wider. wide grip frows and pulldowns hit your inner back making you thicker.deads and half deads work great. if your looking for thickness do, wide grip half deads.
** most important, dont do too many exercises when trying to build a big back, pick three to four at most and stick with those for awhile.
this is what i would suggest
reverse grip/close crip pulldowns: 1-2 sets, 6-8 reps
reverse grip/wide grip bent BB rows: 1 set, 6-8 reps
Old school t-bar: set, 6-8 reps
*deads/or half deads: 1 set, 6-8 reps
* do 2-3 warm up sets before your actual set. dont do enough to make you tired though, just warm up the muscle.
any more than that and your gonna overtrain your back and limit how much youll grow. you could do 3-4 sets but then your gonna pass your bodies primed anabolic state and go straight into a catoblic state where your body is trying to recover from the damage you did to it, not grow. recovery and growth are two different things. besides if you go heavy enough and hard enough, you wont be bale to do another set.
thats just my advice however, do what you will and hoped this helped
01-27-2010, 03:08 PM
But only 5 working sets for a muscle group that large?
01-27-2010, 03:15 PM
Agree with deal lifts...or rack pulls if you have a hard time pulling the weight off the floor. My back and traps have grown a lot faster doing these than when I was just doing pulldowns and rows...
01-27-2010, 03:37 PM
Good back workout:
Pull-ups x 50 reps (however many sets it takes) sometimes do them weighted
** Most people do pull-ups wrong. Start with a grip that when you're at the top, your forearms are perpendicular to the ground or slightly wider. I usually go as wide as I can and still be practicable. All the way up, then all the way down to a full stretch. Your set should end when you're obviously not able to go all the way up. I usually allow for a little leeway here, but not much. After each set, grab hold of something stationary and really stretch out each side so that you can feel it all the way down to your waist. I mostly do pull-ups to the front, but sometimes I'll switch out for pull-ups to the back or close-grip pull-ups using a V-bar. I used to be able to do 20-25 pull-ups at a time but now I know I was half assing them. After making sure to really concentrate on form and technique, my lats have responded tremendously. I can flair them out more than I used to be able to.
All kinds of rows!!! My favorite at the moment are bent-over underhand barbell rows. I bend over to a 30-40 degree angle and pull the bar straight up into my gut. Underhand rows will more heavily involve the biceps than overhand rows, but you're still really giving the lats a good workout. Just make sure to warmup your biceps properly. Overhand rows are also a bread-and-butter back exercise. Just know that technique is SO important for back work. I see guys throwing around a lot of weight all the time, and they're generally strong guys, but even though my frame might be smaller, my back looks better. Also do some seated rows periodically with a grip that allows you to stress the middle back. T-bar rows are good too because you can use a lot of weight. Just go as heavy as possible while maintaining the best possible form. I usually do a 10-12, 8-10, 6-8, 4-6 rep scheme (that's 4 total sets after 1 lighter warmup rowing set). Occasionally, go really heavy on your rowing movements to keep your body guessing. As in, after a warmup set, do your first set with moderately light weight, such as something allowing you to do 8-10 sets, then crank up the weight so that you can only do 6, 4, and 2-3, or something like that. Use your personal lifting instincts for this. In my opinion, back is less forgiving on the genetic level than say, the chest, as far as creating good size, shape and definition. Or in other words, more people can craft a good back than can craft a good chest (in my opinion). Just keep the technique GOOD. If you load on weights and do a lot of cheating with your rows, you'll probably never have as good a back as you would if you did less weight with better technique.
Deadlifts... Of course you should be throughly warmed up and know the proper lifting technique, but this is an exercise where you should really take advantage of being able to use a lot of weight. I'll usually do some warmups, then a realatively light set of 8-10 or so reps, then go really heavy for a couple sets, as in 4-6 then 2-3, or maybe even 1-2 rep sets. I prefer deads at the end of a back workout. By then, the CNS is usually really warmed up. Opinions will vary on this, but that's mine. I lift for bodybuilding, so I use deads as a means to an end rather than just seeing how much weight I can pick up.
So if you do back only on a given day, this is a workout that's really worked well for me:
Pull-ups x 50 reps (however many sets, don't take long rest periods, stretch after each set)
Bent-over Underhand BB Rows (1 light warmup x 12) 4 x 10-12, 8-10, 6-8, 4-6
Deadlifts (1 light warmup x 12) 3 x 8-10, 4-6, 1-3 ("heavy" is the key word here)
You can do exercises in whatever order you want, and switch out exercises. I just like the idea of a exercise that works the pulldown motion (pull-ups, lat pulldowns, ect.), an exercise that works the rowing motion and then deads are pretty obvious if you want maximum size and strength gains.
Also, adding some biceps-specific exercises to the end of a back workout is a great idea because your biceps will already be really warmed up. Of course go ahead and do 1 warmup set for biceps anyway, just because you don't really work the biceps through their complete range of motion on any back exercise, then do 3-4 sets. Any more than that can be counter productive since you've already pounded those relatively small muscles during your back workout. If you choose to do deads, maybe do even less, such as 2-3 total sets. Something I like for biceps-specific work is to do multiple exercises, rather than just 3-4 sets for 1 exercise. I may do some heavy barbell curls, then some incline DB curls, then lying DB curls, then finish up with some preacher curls or concentration curls. But the underhand BB rows have really gotten my biceps responding. Make sure to stretch them out well after your workout.
Oh, and something I really like to do after a back workout is just hang from a pull-up bar for as long as I can. Take a really wide grip and just hang there, feeling your lats stretch. You can pull your knees up to your chest and tilt your chin down to give them a greater stretch. Also stretches out the whole torso, especially the chest.
01-27-2010, 03:59 PM
Pull-ups/chin-ups are far superior to lat pull-downs.
Basically what type o hero said. Pull-ups/chin-ups, rows, and deadlifts.
01-27-2010, 04:00 PM
its not just me either, i am currently putting 4 guys at my college (all gym previous gym goers) through my method, all with very very simialr gains in the past four months, one guy imparticualr went from becnhing 185-8 to 225-8 in the 4 weeks. sounds rediculous, but its about OPTIMAL muscle growth with no room for overtraining.
i only do 4 working sets for my back and thats what everyone at my college who doesnt know my name calls me by, "the big dude with the huge back"
dont get me wrong, more sets is ok, i trained that way for years, but ill never go back, even when i cut up ill only go up to 2 sets.
01-27-2010, 04:03 PM
01-27-2010, 04:22 PM
01-27-2010, 04:39 PM
it was an ok read but i dont care for the source of this material. a few weeks ago i read a b.s. article from that page written by a guy claiming soy lowers testosterone in men. yes its a myth and its been proven false. one of the only significant studies done recorded a decline in only one of the participants testosterone while on soy and he had just ended a cycle of anabolic steriods.
also i have a few problems with the content of the page. he refers the the girl as "petite" and that they laughed at her but claims that chins are the "ulitmate mass builder". that makes no sense, if they where, then she'd have a big back or atleast something to where the men wouldnt have laughed at her atempt. plus, he said she was a swimmer, swimmers have enormous back strength from stokes like fly and freestyle. her strength wasnt 100% attributed to executions of chin ups.
also, consider the time frame, this was in 1982, its outdated.
also, look at ronnie or yates, both had argueably the best backs in the game and neither did pull ups.
also, he calls the smith machine "near usless", proving this guy is not a educated fitness professional
also, charles poliquin (the author) is garbage.
nice though, i love to debate lifts and what not,its fun, but you still havent proven that there far superior.... so i still firmly disagree
01-27-2010, 05:02 PM
Also, Smith machines are pretty useless, the fact that you think they aren't shows me where you are coming from. Not to mention the fact that Smith machines take the stabilizing muscles out of the equation, it forces an unnatural bar path, which is just begging for injury. Smith machines hardly have any carryover to a real bench press, while a bench press has great carry over to a smith machine bench press.
I'm not saying Lat pull downs can't build a big back, just that chin-ups are much better at it, and have the added benefit of developing useful strength.
01-27-2010, 05:22 PM
i bet you didnt even know who charles poliquin was until i mentioned his name, you just knew of his article that you found on the web. and its the only peice of evidence to your arguement. an outdated article from an unreliable web page.
compared to and pro or amateuar charles is a shrimp, so if i had ronnie or yates saying pulldowns are better,and then i had this weisel in the other corner tell me "these chins are the ulitmate mass bulder" guess who id listen to? not you or charles.
so first, if chins were the ulitmate mass builder then why dont all these frail bodies who do nothing but chins at home have big backs? or even half decently developed backs?? they dont so there not "far superior"
second, if you think smith machines are useless than any post youve ever made should be deleted and you shouldnt be giving anyone advice. you should just quite right now. i use barbells but atleast i acknowledge the fact that smith machines arent usless. im not on an EGO trip where i exclude machines.
third, if you dont like smith then get the hell of the leg press son, same damn thing. leg extentions or leg curls, same damn thing there undeniably useful
fourth, you said nothing about my half of my points, so i guess you had no rebutle. and you cant say they werent good points because they destroyed yours. all you came back with was a half ass attack at me. which also failed by the way.
again, outdated useless article from an unreliable source
so again, you still havent proven your point, so i still firmly disagree, even more now then before considering youre the one argueing it.
01-27-2010, 05:22 PM
Pulldowns are a good exercise because they allow you to use less than body weight. Also, you can use a variety of grips. I like them best for warming up with and sometimes V-bar pulldowns.
I wouldn't replace pull-ups with pulldowns, but I wouldn't exclude pulldowns from my routines all together.
01-27-2010, 05:24 PM
plus your the same height as me but 60 lbs less. i dont do chins, ever...ever.....EVER and yet i have a bigger back.
01-27-2010, 05:26 PM
01-27-2010, 05:33 PM
I do think certain exercises could be considered superior to others if you were basing that off of what works for you. As in, I get more out of dumbbell presses than I do with barbell presses because of the way my body is built, but I wouldn't take that and say that DB presses are always superior to barbell presses because I know plenty of people who could achieve great chest development by only doing barbell presses. Different strokes for different folks.
Most of the time I'd recommend pull-ups over pulldowns, but there's always exceptions to where the opposite would be encouraged.
01-27-2010, 05:34 PM
And again, you made no points except to dump on Poliquin, who I am willing to bet has much more experience than you.
01-27-2010, 05:37 PM
01-27-2010, 05:41 PM
01-27-2010, 05:49 PM
you never said they were useless by you implied so by stating that pull ups were far superior.
say something else. you havent convinced me anything other than that you have a small back
01-27-2010, 05:59 PM
01-27-2010, 06:04 PM
01-27-2010, 06:15 PM
01-27-2010, 06:26 PM
01-29-2010, 08:06 AM
AHHH...A good ole' E-FIGHT!
I believe we are actually talking about pull ups,not chins.
Is the reason you are hating on p-ups,cause you can't do them???
Many people can't.A bodyweight exercise is DEFINITELY tougher/harder than a machine one.
P-ups are tried and true and a GREAT lat builder.
C'mon kids we can all play in the same sandbox,,,and when you're done building sandcastles...DON'T forget to do your PULLUPS
01-29-2010, 08:23 AM
Pullups vs. Pulldowns.... THE ULTIMATE SHOWDOWN
01-29-2010, 08:34 AM
No, but on a serious note. Ricky5145 makes a really good point. Bodybuilders generally favor the lat pulldown to build mass, and the pullup is just used as a warmup. However, you both are coming at it from different angles. One of you is mentioning gymnasts, mountain climbers, etc. These are people that are generally lean, fit and muscular but not huge, or anywhere near the size of bodybuilders such as Yates or Arnold, etc.
On the flip side, the other one of you is mentioning bodybuilders and 'bodybuilding', in which it is important to not only be lean and muscular, but also to pack on massive size. The point at which you guys started arguing is because the term 'ultimate mass builder' was used. To one of you, the term could mean simply have a defined and lean back, and to the other one of you, that means to have a massive bodybuilder style back. But, I will say, that in terms of mass, Ricky is right, lat pulldowns will build mass faster and denser than pullups.
01-29-2010, 08:43 AM
Yeah,an I've seen "so called" bodybuilders on the lat machine rocking back and forth while snatching the weight around.Reminds me of the kids outside of walmart riding the 25 cent horsey go round thingy...I expect them at any minute to go into an epileptic seizure the way they are flopping all over the place with HORRIBLE-ASS form!
But I guess you are right.When they leave the gym they have to walk sideways through the double doors because their lats as so swole
01-29-2010, 08:59 AM
it could just be me personally but i prefer heavy ass dumbbell rows, with an exaggerated stretch at the bottom of the movement and sometimes even a pause to allow for the stretch in your lat (i usually pick a weight that i can only do anywhere from 6-10 reps with given the stretching motion). a few sets of those and you can really feel the pump in your lats.
01-29-2010, 10:04 AM
take for instence that girl in the article he pointed out. it said she did 60 straight. do youthinkg that girl can load of 4 plates on a bar and row it? hell no, shed break in half. shes just doing body weight.
im glad to see you agree here latter. and when you said "so called bodybuilders" in you later post i can tell your not one so i can see why youd side with the pullup.
01-29-2010, 10:05 AM
01-29-2010, 10:06 AM
01-29-2010, 01:41 PM
01-29-2010, 02:03 PM
heres an excerpt from a review with dorian as well; : Did you do pull-ups at your heavy bodyweight?
Dorian: Yeah, I used to. We used to do them with maybe an extra hundred pounds, stuff like that. Maybe not full range pull-ups, though. But after the bicep injury in '94, I stayed away from pull-ups because the stretch position on the bicep wasn't right. Then I was relying on machines a lot more, particularly the Hammer pulldown machine and the row.
So he did them UNTIL he was too injured to do them anymore!
Its funny how you speak for them when you don't know **** about them kid. besides the fact that they take enough injectables to kill a rhino, so why you would give a **** about what they do is odd. You had a high % of BF @ 200 and your bigger now after your bulk. I guarantee your bf is even higher now so stop throwing your weight around like it means something. Your a 21 year old child who has not been in the "game" ever. You just graduated high school not too long ago and have obviously never competed in anything. Deadlifts build thickness, weighted pull ups build width period. if you can't do pull ups, do pull downs till you can. Stop misleading people with your BS.
For fun: Arnold doing pull ups. YouTube- Arnold Schwarzenegger pull ups
01-29-2010, 02:18 PM
and the high school comment? im about to graduate college you lil shrimp. i guess you never went...it shows.
and the ronnie and yates comment. i was using them as an example. sure they may have said that and sure the were juicing, but just because you juice doesnt mean your going to get huge. and if you look at them from the time they were average size on the stage to when they became the mass monsters they were, they didnt utilize pull ups. early careers sure. i did when i started lifting, but i dont use them now, and they didnt either.
besides if you watch ronnies interviews he contradics himself alot.
so in short, thanks for the compliments you just boosted my ego a lil so thanks
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