Need some advice for winter bulk
08-29-2008 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Emerge
Scroll down to U
ANd read number one on this article-
Once I added it, all my lifts went up, believe it or not I even did some unilateral work for my upper body and had great success. This can be suck a limiting factor for some people. BUt remember, this means doing a movement with one limb-not just using dumbells. IF you do a chest press with dumbells and you are moving them at the same time that is not unilateral. If you alternate arms that is unilateral-i know that sounds basic but some people dont understand that. But the neuromuscular adaptions made are pretty amazing.
08-29-2008 11:09 PM
4x10 yes on paper would seem like it works across the board, but the only adaption you are making is primarily going to cause sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which in the end will cap off your gains because this isnt functional muscle because there wasnt myofibrillar hypertrophy, and the same CNS adaption wont take place like it would if you hit heavy singles or triples like a max effort lift. And then come back later and hit between your 8-12 reps during assistance work (obviously this can vary depending on the movement but this is very general). 4x10 has been proven to work for a while but you cant just keep getting stronger in that rep range, and if you can it will slow to a painful progression. The key here is that word, progression. You have to progress in strength (absolute strength to be more precise) in order to give your body a chance to be able to move a heavier weight through your 10 rep range.
Originally Posted by suncloud
The 3 reasons you gave for pros really isnt the reason why you shouldnt follow there programs. Most of them have no science behind them and yes they are on steroids but most of them are still very gifted. Whatever they do probably worked for them so it doesnt matter what they say, for normal people most of there stuff, even modified programs are just not good. THey are the reason why there are so many misconceptions in training and why there is so many muscle imbalance issues with normal people who just lift.
5-6 reps is a strength/hypertrophy rep range but at the same time as I just said you should never just live in one rep range. If you chronically perform a certain rep range for a long period of time you get no where.
And just to let you know, volume can mean several things...total reps, poundages lifted, sets...ect.
Olympic lifts arent really gym related? Oh they are gym related, they are great at teaching your body how to recruit muscle fibers quickly and explosively and again can help you get bigger later-teach your CNS how to recruit as many muscle fibers as possible and this will carry over into hypertrophy.
Of course 4 sets or more are better....but it all depends, ME, dynamic, who knows the possibilities are endless.
Thanks for the complements i appreciate it. I hope I dont come off as an ass (NOT MY INTENT AT ALL I LOVE DISCUSSING) but I was a strength coach at a division 1 school so I love talking about training.
Sorry, i hope this made sense i got a ride on the way so i gots to go!
08-30-2008 12:55 AM
my quote was: olympic lifts are not really gym related (at least not where i live) because in "health clubs" there's no area to do them.
Originally Posted by Hbs6
i agree with you that anything becomes stale over time - the gains will slow, etc.
you quite obviously know what you're talking about and i think we got quite a bit off topic. 4 sets of 10 are in my opinion what is best for a bulk combined of course with compound movements. this will obviously get stale after time - hopefully by then, he's ready to switch over to strength gains, or cutting.
to keep a routine from getting stale - at least my routine, i do 4 sets of 6 (more strength oriented). i try for 4 sets of 7 the next week when i do the same set, followed by 8 reps, then 9, finally 10. once i get to 10, i add the 2.5 plates to the sides, and go back down to sets of 6, rinse, repeat. its maybe not the greatest, but i consistently lift 5 pounds more every month on all my compound lifts. its served me pretty well to make strength as well as mass gains. it got my military press up to 190, which is almost 10 pounds over my body weight - not great so far, but respectable non the less. it does very little as far as functional strength though. i'd love to see what kind of functional strength workout you would do, since you're opinions run in some ways similar, and in other ways quite different than mine.
my functional strength routine is: 4-5 sets of 10 supersetted or giant setted depending on how many people are at the gym. when i do this routine, i do workout 1, rest a day, workout 2, etc, so i'm at the gym every other day. course i have to get back to my old gym to do it, since my new gym doesn't have a deadlift platform. yech.
Deadlift to shrug
Push Ups (25 reps / set - ectomorph so they're easy for me)
Floor Wiper (holding 135 lbs on bench and doing leg raises to the bar)
DB Curl to Arnold Press
Sumo Deadlift to shrug
Incline Bench Press
Upright Row (EZ bar)
Bent Over Barbell Row (Overhand)
* i would have done clean and press, but i'm a little scared due to an injury. arnolds advice was to drop the weight in 1/2 and double the reps, but something still didn't feel happy, so i'm taking some time off them before i add them back in.
08-30-2008 02:27 AM
Do you do 4x10 on all the exercises on each day? And you quote arnold a lot, so are you just in this for bodybuilding?
08-30-2008 11:03 AM
And bud, i am not sure how you define functional because that word can mean so many things in this industry that it shouldnt (like some asshat balancing on a physioball trying to squat). What i mean is strength that is carried over into sports or regular life or work even if you have that kind of job. Is that how you define it?
08-30-2008 08:52 PM
yes. strength you can use outside the gym - whether its cutting down a tree, picking up furniture, tackling someone who's stolen someone's purse. functional strength to me means having strength for things unrelated to a bicep exercise. using your muscles in harmony. seals training. that kinda stuff.
yes, i love bodybuilding. yes i want to get bigger. i started this at just under 130 lbs, now being at 180 flat, so much progress has been made. but i want to be able to use my muscles for other things not gym related. its great being bigger and all, but if i can't use those muscles together, there's really no point to it.
and again, yes, i do 4-5 sets of 10 for each of those movements. i'm curious as to your input on this, since you seem to be a huge supporter of olympic / powerlifting moves. any advice for better compound moves would be good.
i have done workout 1 listed above for a while, and had great results in regards to functional strength. now i'm looking to get back into doing them, but running three different workouts instead of the same one over and over. maybe adding a 4th workout that focuses on higher sets, less reps like that article you posted earlier. i'd like to increase strength, as well as increase my overall testosterone. what tweaks would you make?
08-31-2008 11:34 AM
Well, i am not sure how you measure a rise in functional strength unless core lifts like deads and squats have gone up along with unilateral work (because one leg strength is very different from being able to use both legs) but assuming this has happened then i would personally make just a few tweaks. First off, for your goals, if it aint broke dont fix it. BUt in any case here you are with some advice.
I have done programs like you are doing, i have done DC, i have bulked up to around 220 with nothing hormonal when all i cared about was getting big. Huge mistake considering i used DC for college sport preparation and all it did was make me a very large, muscular...slow person, lol. But you live and you learn. I was 220 but wasnt strong at all for that weight.
So I learned. Then when I was done in college sports I got into MMA which has weight classes as i am sure you know so I had to cut weight and stay strong, so I dont really care about size anymore. Iwant to sit around 190 like I am and get strong and as explosive as ****. The funny thing is, when I started training like an athlete i got leaner, more muscular and could actually move. BUt because of diet I stay where I am at by simply slowly dropping fat and putting on muscle. This is why I believe whatever your goals are you are much better off training old soviet style which means pretty much full body splits throughout the week with different emphasis. THis will create optimal hormone output. Bodypart training became popular right around... when steroids became popular. Weird.
So what would I tell you to do?
Train to get stronger like a powerlifter, but then add in hypertrophy type training after you get your main lift out of the way. Get the best of both worlds while not putting an artificial ceiling on your CNS but not working on absolute strength. So for you...this is so hypothetical and just a very broad template...
Would be good to do a version of this-
TESTOSTERONE NATION - Westside for Skinny Bastards
Not saying follow a cookie cutter but this style of ME upper, lower, and volume works great for people who havent done any kind of heavy program before.
But the key is, manipulate volume.
wk1- maybe 5 heavy sets for your main lift
wk2 maybe 4
wk3 maybe 6-10
wk3 2-3 for a deload
This is how eric cressey manipulates volume and he is very successful with himself and his athletes. Try this or ask questions but you are very receptive and I hope this all made sense, i am on my way to work so i typed it so fast there are probly tons of errors.
08-31-2008 11:34 PM
awesome - thanks for the advice. will definately read that article. thanks again!
09-01-2008 08:24 AM
09-10-2008 09:29 PM
Hey man, looks to me you are over-planning and over-thinking stuff. Just do this routine, you'll get bulky;
MONDAYS: FULL BODY
Weighted Pullups / B.W.
DB Incline Bench
WEDENSDAYS: FULL BODY
BB Flat Bench
Weighted Dips / B.W.
Hang Clean & Press
FRIDAY: LEGS & ABS
Squats or Front Squats
Lunges, step ups, etc.
Any kind of Calf Raises
SATURDAY: UPPER BODY
Flat / Incline Bench DB or BB
DB / BB Military Press
Incline Dumbell Curls
Any Tricep Exercise
Dude, do this take it from me, i have been doing this type of routine for the past couple of years and i keep getting stronger and bulkier. You can of course customize it to your liking.
Good Luck Bro!
09-11-2008 11:25 AM
I only have 3 days to lift, and I am not a fan of whole body days for bulking. For recomping and cutting, yes.
09-15-2008 09:57 PM
3 days.....then i'd go with 3 DAY full body. full body is GREAT for bulking, are you serious?!
09-15-2008 10:07 PM
i'll gladly give you my three day total body workout. if you can't gain off it, you're probably screwed.
09-15-2008 11:06 PM
No, I'm not serious. I waste my time on the internet being a jackass for fun.
Originally Posted by meatNcreatine
09-15-2008 11:07 PM
I never said I couldn't gain off of it. I just said it wasn't my cup of tea. Sure, let me see it, maybe I can throw it in every once in a while to spice things up.
Originally Posted by suncloud
09-15-2008 11:09 PM
WORKOUT # 1
Pull ups (close, med, wide, med)
Deadlift to shrug (belt)
Push Ups (25 reps / set)
Rear Delt Flyes
Cable Upright Rows
WORKOUT # 2
Clean and Press
Sumo Deadlift to shrug
V - Grip Pullup
Blasters (rear tricep)
Donkey Calf Raises
WORKOUT # 3
Incline Bench Press
Floor wipers - look them up on youtube
Chin Ups (close, med, wide, med)
Upright Row (EZ bar)
Bent Over Rows
Seated Neck Harness
4 sets of 10 for first 6 exercises, 2 sets of 10 with the last two. once you get up to 10 reps, add 2.5 pounds per side and do 4 sets of 6 reps. build up reps from there till you hit 10 reps, rinse, repeat.
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