6-oxo vs. ATD
- 07-17-2008, 12:00 PM
6-oxo vs. ATD
I'm trying to help a friend of mine set up his first NHA stack.is going to be part of it but I was also thinking about an anti-e as well for the end of the stack. Since the Rebound products are gone I was thinking 6-oxo or ATD. Which is the better choice/how do they differ? If anyone knows their MOA, that would be great too.
It would most likely look like this:
Weeks 1-2: AX
Weeks 3-4: AX + anti-e
Weeks 5-6: anti-e (tapered)
- 07-17-2008, 12:25 PM
6-OXO is better if you plan on keeping your libido (and raising it) and if you plan on not killing your joints and lipid profile. ATD is good if you just want to dry out, say bye bye to sex drive, and pretty much beat your joints into the ground. No brainer.Freedom means nothing here.
- 07-17-2008, 01:17 PM
07-17-2008, 01:20 PM
07-17-2008, 01:30 PM
What's typical solo dosing (outside of cycle and PCT)?
I know most dose around 300-600mg/day (taper style) during PCT.
07-17-2008, 01:32 PM
07-17-2008, 01:34 PM
I'm by no means an expert, but I recall reading on the forums how ATD in lower doses didn't dry out the joints or kill libido.
Can't find the thread where people discussed their results (was like 3 or 4 pages)
07-17-2008, 01:39 PM
07-17-2008, 01:43 PM
07-17-2008, 01:44 PM
Freedom means nothing here.
07-17-2008, 02:02 PM
07-17-2008, 02:55 PM
07-17-2008, 03:51 PM
07-17-2008, 03:59 PM
07-17-2008, 04:15 PM
07-17-2008, 04:38 PM
So you do a taper down with the AI, huh. I know Dman does this too, after 2 weeks into PCT.
I know most do I usually do a taper up then back down.
Of course this is usually with SERM.
Im going natty on my next PCT for my 11oxo/Hdrol stack.
I'll have to try the taper down.
07-17-2008, 04:57 PM
07-17-2008, 08:02 PM
I'm second week into 11-oxo @ 500mg/day and seeing some BF reduction. Strength is great at this dose and I've lost 2lbs and 1" off waist so far!
Doing week 3-4 with 400mg/day 11-oxo and 50mg/day Hdrol.
Week 5-6 I will run the Hdrol @ 75mg/day and MAYBE continue with 11-oxo (not sure of dosing yet).
MadDog and SuperBig gave me some great suggestions over at LB.
07-19-2008, 03:49 PM
there is a study done by Baylor Univerisity that 6-oxo raised T level and E level and everything, no other differences in LH FSH were found, but they concluded that its not good as AI
I heard 6-OXO itself can aromatize? as well.
search 6-oxo on pubmed
07-19-2008, 04:36 PM
07-19-2008, 04:39 PM
07-19-2008, 04:53 PM
I read the study as well. It doesn't raise estrogen. Again, it's an AI.
The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of 6-OXO, an aromatase inhibitor, in a dose dependent manner on serum hormone levels and clinical safety markers in resistance trained males. Sixteen healthy trained subjects, who participated in a resistance training protocol, had blood samples taken at weeks 0, 1, 3, 8, and 11. These samples were analyzed for total testosterone, free testosterone, DHT, estradiol, estriol, estrone, SHBG, LH, FSH, GH, and cortisol. There were no significant differences between groups (p>0.01). However, total testosterone concentration, free testosterone concentration, and DHT concentration increased over the course of the study (p=0.009). Measures of body composition did not change with supplementation (p>0.05). Safety markers were seen to not be adversely affected with ingestion of 6-OXO (p>0.01). 6-OXO supplementation appears to be safe and increases total testosterone, free testosterone, and DHT concentrations independent of the two different doses.
Freedom means nothing here.
07-19-2008, 08:20 PM
07-19-2008, 08:38 PM
Was that from the Journal of International Society of Sports Nutrition?
I have that research article in pdf.
Here's a quote...
So estrone did increase in both doses but is this a "bad" thing. Also keep in mind that FT, DHT and T/E did as well. That's a nice balance in my opinion.The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of 6-OXO, a purported nutritional
aromatase inhibitor, in a dose dependent manner on body composition, serum hormone levels, and
clinical safety markers in resistance trained males. Sixteen males were supplemented with either
300 mg or 600 mg of 6-OXO in a double-blind manner for eight weeks. Blood and urine samples
were obtained at weeks 0, 1, 3, 8, and 11 (after a 3-week washout period). Blood samples were
analyzed for total testosterone (TT), free testosterone (FT), dihydrotestosterone (DHT),
estradiol, estriol, estrone, SHBG, leutinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH),
growth hormone (GH), cortisol, FT/estradiol (T/E). Blood and urine were also analyzed for clinical
chemistry markers. Data were analyzed with two-way MANOVA. For all of the serum hormones,
there were no significant differences between groups (p > 0.05). Compared to baseline, free
testosterone underwent overall increases of 90% for 300 mg 6-OXO and 84% for 600 mg,
respectively (p < 0.05). DHT underwent significant overall increases (p < 0.05) of 192% and 265%
with 300 mg and 600 mg, respectively. T/E increased 53% and 67% for 300 mg and 600 mg 6-OXO,
respectively. For estrone, 300 mg produced an overall increase of 22%, whereas 600 mg caused a
52% increase (p < 0.05). Body composition did not change with supplementation (p > 0.05) and
clinical safety markers were not adversely affected with ingestion of either supplement dose (p >
0.05). While neither of the 6-OXO dosages appears to have any negative effects on clinical
chemistry markers, supplementation at a daily dosage of 300 mg and 600 mg for eight weeks did
not completely inhibit aromatase activity, yet significantly increased FT, DHT, and T/E.
Maybe this is why some AI's will KILL libido (ie ATD). Estrogen is a necessity for good health. Too much is the problem. This is where bloodwork plays a MAJOR role.
Also, I have yet to hear anyone develop gyno from the 6-oxo or any other estrogen related sides as reported in the research paper as well.
07-19-2008, 09:02 PM
07-20-2008, 03:08 AM
07-20-2008, 08:28 AM
07-20-2008, 04:30 PM
07-29-2008, 10:56 AM
07-29-2008, 11:32 AM
07-29-2008, 12:07 PM
I've used both and like them both.
My favorite is ATD though. I prefer that over most AIs. I just need to take 25mcg per day for 4 or 5 days and thats it...my estrogen is in check for several weeks on cycle. If I need it again I hit it at low dose for a few days... simple...effective...very powerful...cost effective and currently available.
That doesn't take anything away from 6-oxo which I agree with FOG is very good at the proper dosing.
In todays environment it is good to have a vareity of tools from which to draw on and to understand how to effectively use each when needed. You never know when one or more "favorite" tools will suddenly become unavailable or cost-prohibitive.
Thats just the way it is...
07-29-2008, 09:48 PM
07-30-2008, 12:32 PM
ATD is the most powerfull OTC AI available, but almost everybody is overdosing it and then comes the problems.
07-30-2008, 02:38 PM
07-30-2008, 05:21 PM
07-30-2008, 06:41 PM
07-30-2008, 06:43 PM
BTW you may want to cap the trione powder, it tastes horrible. Leaves a nice rancid stinging taste in the back of the mouth. My best results were from taking a 1/2 of a 1/4 teaspoon (300 mg) with the last meal of the day. ATD in general confuses my ****, no matter the dosage and 6-OXO above 300 will do the same as well, clearly estrogen sensitive.
07-31-2008, 12:30 AM
07-31-2008, 12:43 PM
07-31-2008, 08:51 PM
Both do their AI job. It depends on the use (PCT, standalone, etc). IMO 6-OXO is much better for PCT as ATD's been shown to cause supression itself, rather than testes recovery. As far as ON cycle goes with an aromitizing AAS though I'd probably go with low dosed ATD.