6-oxo vs. ATD

[JJC]

I'm trying to help a friend of mine set up his first NHA stack. Activate Xtreme is going to be part of it but I was also thinking about an anti-e as well for the end of the stack. Since the Rebound products are gone I was thinking 6-oxo or ATD. Which is the better choice/how do they differ? If anyone knows their MOA, that would be great too.

It would most likely look like this:
Weeks 1-2: AX
Weeks 3-4: AX + anti-e
Weeks 5-6: anti-e (tapered)

 

[Force of Green]

6-OXO is better if you plan on keeping your libido (and raising it) and if you plan on not killing your joints and lipid profile. ATD is good if you just want to dry out, say bye bye to sex drive, and pretty much beat your joints into the ground. No brainer.

 

[JJC]

6-OXO is better if you plan on keeping your libido (and raising it) and if you plan on not killing your joints and lipid profile. ATD is good if you just want to dry out, say bye bye to sex drive, and pretty much beat your joints into the ground. No brainer.

That's what I seem to recall as well. Thanks for the input.

Any anti-e's to top 6-oxo?

 

[Force of Green]

That's what I seem to recall as well. Thanks for the input.

Any anti-e's to top 6-oxo?

6-OXO is the best anti-estrogen in my opinion. You're welcome.

 

[GotTest]

What's typical solo dosing (outside of cycle and PCT)?
I know most dose around 300-600mg/day (taper style) during PCT.

 

[Force of Green]

What's typical solo dosing (outside of cycle and PCT)?
I know most dose around 300-600mg/day (taper style) during PCT.

300 is okay.... 600 is great. Sweet spot indeed. Some have went higher I'm sure, but sides may prevail more, though libido will still not drop unless you dose at a bizarre level.

PCT = 600/600/600/400/300/off

 

[Steveoph]

I'm by no means an expert, but I recall reading on the forums how ATD in lower doses didn't dry out the joints or kill libido.

Can't find the thread where people discussed their results (was like 3 or 4 pages)

 

[thebigt]

6-OXO is the best anti-estrogen in my opinion. You're welcome.

as long as formestane is out of stock, i agree.:run:

 

[Force of Green]

I'm by no means an expert, but I recall reading on the forums how ATD in lower doses didn't dry out the joints or kill libido.

Can't find the thread where people discussed their results (was like 3 or 4 pages)

Yeah... I mean... it takes tinkering and won't agree with a lot of users, though I'm not saying it's 'bad'. I think that if someone's running test-e/cyp and uses 25mg ATD at night it'd be good for keeping gains totally dry.

 

[Force of Green]

as long as formestane is out of stock, i agree.:run:

For SURE. I think formestane is DOPE for running off cycle as a stand alone, like for the summertime... keeps you dry, upregulates IGF-1 and other functions, raises libido a bit... but for PCT, no way. It'll keep you shutdown and have you think you've recovered, but it doesn't work. People have tried and it wasn't favorable.

 

[thebigt]

For SURE. I think formestane is DOPE for running off cycle as a stand alone, like for the summertime... keeps you dry, upregulates IGF-1 and other functions, raises libido a bit... but for PCT, no way. It'll keep you shutdown and have you think you've recovered, but it doesn't work. People have tried and it wasn't favorable.

dr.d agrees with you. his theory is form on cycle and hdx2 for pct, he says great synergy with form/hdx2 ran that way. but like you said formestane as standalone is golden. and since form is oos i agree with the 6oxo. you giving some good advice green man, keep it up.:toofunny:

 

[Force of Green]

dr.d agrees with you. his theory is form on cycle and hdx2 for pct, he says great synergy with form/hdx2 ran that way. but like you said formestane as standalone is golden. and since form is oos i agree with the 6oxo. you giving some good advice green man, keep it up.:toofunny:

Haha! Thanks BigT. It's a shame what happened with formestane.

 

[thebigt]

Haha! Thanks BigT. It's a shame what happened with formestane.

yeah, i love that shiit.

 

[JJC]

yeah, i love that shiit.

Form was going to be my first suggestion for him but since it's likely gone for good, we're doing the next bet.

I think I've got a few squirts left of my TD Form in the next few days. I will cherish them all... :sad:

 

[thebigt]

Form was going to be my first suggestion for him but since it's likely gone for good, we're doing the next bet.

I think I've got a few squirts left of my TD Form in the next few days. I will cherish them all... :sad:

e-form was the first supplement that really worked for me. and that was when it was always available and cost $14. no one is more sad than me to see it gone.

 

[GotTest]

300 is okay.... 600 is great. Sweet spot indeed. Some have went higher I'm sure, but sides may prevail more, though libido will still not drop unless you dose at a bizarre level.

PCT = 600/600/600/400/300/off

Thanks Green!
So you do a taper down with the AI, huh. I know Dman does this too, after 2 weeks into PCT.
I know most do I usually do a taper up then back down.
Of course this is usually with SERM.

Im going natty on my next PCT for my 11oxo/Hdrol stack.
I'll have to try the taper down.

 

[Force of Green]

Thanks Green!
So you do a taper down with the AI, huh. I know Dman does this too, after 2 weeks into PCT.
I know most do I usually do a taper up then back down.
Of course this is usually with SERM.

Im going natty on my next PCT for my 11oxo/Hdrol stack.
I'll have to try the taper down.

Good deal my friend! Yeah, that'd work out great. What r u planning for doses for 11-OXO/H-drol?

 

[GotTest]

Good deal my friend! Yeah, that'd work out great. What r u planning for doses for 11-OXO/H-drol?

I'm doing a bridge of the 11-oxo into the Hdrol.
I'm second week into 11-oxo @ 500mg/day and seeing some BF reduction. Strength is great at this dose and I've lost 2lbs and 1" off waist so far!

Doing week 3-4 with 400mg/day 11-oxo and 50mg/day Hdrol.
Week 5-6 I will run the Hdrol @ 75mg/day and MAYBE continue with 11-oxo (not sure of dosing yet).
MadDog and SuperBig gave me some great suggestions over at LB.

 

[comacho]

there is a study done by Baylor Univerisity that 6-oxo raised T level and E level and everything, no other differences in LH FSH were found, but they concluded that its not good as AI

I heard 6-OXO itself can aromatize? as well.

search 6-oxo on pubmed

 

[Force of Green]

I'm doing a bridge of the 11-oxo into the Hdrol.
I'm second week into 11-oxo @ 500mg/day and seeing some BF reduction. Strength is great at this dose and I've lost 2lbs and 1" off waist so far!

Doing week 3-4 with 400mg/day 11-oxo and 50mg/day Hdrol.
Week 5-6 I will run the Hdrol @ 75mg/day and MAYBE continue with 11-oxo (not sure of dosing yet).
MadDog and SuperBig gave me some great suggestions over at LB.

Awesome! Just don't compare Fast Action 11-test to Ergopharm 11-oxo... hopefully they didn't sway you into using theirs. Fast Action isn't top quality from what I hear.

 

[thebigt]

there is a study done by Baylor Univerisity that 6-oxo raised T level and E level and everything, no other differences in LH FSH were found, but they concluded that its not good as AI

I heard 6-OXO itself can aromatize? as well.

search 6-oxo on pubmed

take it with a grain of salt. the AMA is still denying that anabolic steriods enhance athletic performance, while sanctioning bodies outlaw their use. all i know is 6 oxo has worked well for me.:thumbsup:

 

[Force of Green]

there is a study done by Baylor Univerisity that 6-oxo raised T level and E level and everything, no other differences in LH FSH were found, but they concluded that its not good as AI

I heard 6-OXO itself can aromatize? as well.

search 6-oxo on pubmed

6-OXO is an aromatase inhibitor. It CAN NOT aromatize.

I read the study as well. It doesn't raise estrogen. Again, it's an AI.

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of 6-OXO, an aromatase inhibitor, in a dose dependent manner on serum hormone levels and clinical safety markers in resistance trained males. Sixteen healthy trained subjects, who participated in a resistance training protocol, had blood samples taken at weeks 0, 1, 3, 8, and 11. These samples were analyzed for total testosterone, free testosterone, DHT, estradiol, estriol, estrone, SHBG, LH, FSH, GH, and cortisol. There were no significant differences between groups (p>0.01). However, total testosterone concentration, free testosterone concentration, and DHT concentration increased over the course of the study (p=0.009). Measures of body composition did not change with supplementation (p>0.05). Safety markers were seen to not be adversely affected with ingestion of 6-OXO (p>0.01). 6-OXO supplementation appears to be safe and increases total testosterone, free testosterone, and DHT concentrations independent of the two different doses.

 

[GotTest]

Awesome! Just don't compare Fast Action 11-test to Ergopharm 11-oxo... hopefully they didn't sway you into using theirs. Fast Action isn't top quality from what I hear.

No I capped my own bulk Adrenosterone.
I agree with you on the FA quality!

 

[GotTest]

Was that from the Journal of International Society of Sports Nutrition?
I have that research article in pdf.
Here's a quote...

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of 6-OXO, a purported nutritional
aromatase inhibitor, in a dose dependent manner on body composition, serum hormone levels, and
clinical safety markers in resistance trained males. Sixteen males were supplemented with either
300 mg or 600 mg of 6-OXO in a double-blind manner for eight weeks. Blood and urine samples
were obtained at weeks 0, 1, 3, 8, and 11 (after a 3-week washout period). Blood samples were
analyzed for total testosterone (TT), free testosterone (FT), dihydrotestosterone (DHT),
estradiol, estriol, estrone, SHBG, leutinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH),
growth hormone (GH), cortisol, FT/estradiol (T/E). Blood and urine were also analyzed for clinical
chemistry markers. Data were analyzed with two-way MANOVA. For all of the serum hormones,
there were no significant differences between groups (p > 0.05). Compared to baseline, free
testosterone underwent overall increases of 90% for 300 mg 6-OXO and 84% for 600 mg,
respectively (p < 0.05). DHT underwent significant overall increases (p < 0.05) of 192% and 265%
with 300 mg and 600 mg, respectively. T/E increased 53% and 67% for 300 mg and 600 mg 6-OXO,
respectively. For estrone, 300 mg produced an overall increase of 22%, whereas 600 mg caused a
52% increase (p < 0.05). Body composition did not change with supplementation (p > 0.05) and
clinical safety markers were not adversely affected with ingestion of either supplement dose (p >
0.05). While neither of the 6-OXO dosages appears to have any negative effects on clinical
chemistry markers, supplementation at a daily dosage of 300 mg and 600 mg for eight weeks did
not completely inhibit aromatase activity, yet significantly increased FT, DHT, and T/E.

So estrone did increase in both doses but is this a "bad" thing. Also keep in mind that FT, DHT and T/E did as well. That's a nice balance in my opinion.

Maybe this is why some AI's will KILL libido (ie ATD). Estrogen is a necessity for good health. Too much is the problem. This is where bloodwork plays a MAJOR role.
Also, I have yet to hear anyone develop gyno from the 6-oxo or any other estrogen related sides as reported in the research paper as well.

 

[borobulker]

this is an interesting study. i like it.

 

[Force of Green]

Was that from the Journal of International Society of Sports Nutrition?
I have that research article in pdf.
Here's a quote...


So estrone did increase in both doses but is this a "bad" thing. Also keep in mind that FT, DHT and T/E did as well. That's a nice balance in my opinion.

Maybe this is why some AI's will KILL libido (ie ATD). Estrogen is a necessity for good health. Too much is the problem. This is where bloodwork plays a MAJOR role.
Also, I have yet to hear anyone develop gyno from the 6-oxo or any other estrogen related sides as reported in the research paper as well.

Nice! I got the half-ass one. lol. I3C would go nice with OXO.

 

[GotTest]

Nice! I got the half-ass one. lol. I3C would go nice with OXO.

I3C are my thoughts exactly!!
I only run 6-oxo in PCT as well as I3C.
I3C is dosed from 600-400mg/day, usually tapered down from the first week.

 

[Force of Green]

I3C are my thoughts exactly!!
I only run 6-oxo in PCT as well as I3C.
I3C is dosed from 600-400mg/day, usually tapered down from the first week.

Good scheme.

 

[Rugger]

question, what's the measuring method for bulk 6oxo? How many mg in a teaspoon etc?

 

[borobulker]

question, what's the measuring method for bulk 6oxo? How many mg in a teaspoon etc?

Nutraplanet Androstenetrione Powder ; 1/4 tsp = 600mg

 

[datBtrue]

I've used both and like them both.

My favorite is ATD though. I prefer that over most AIs. I just need to take 25mcg per day for 4 or 5 days and thats it...my estrogen is in check for several weeks on cycle. If I need it again I hit it at low dose for a few days... simple...effective...very powerful...cost effective and currently available.

That doesn't take anything away from 6-oxo which I agree with FOG is very good at the proper dosing.

In todays environment it is good to have a vareity of tools from which to draw on and to understand how to effectively use each when needed. You never know when one or more "favorite" tools will suddenly become unavailable or cost-prohibitive.

Thats just the way it is...

 

[faetfiada]

6-OXO is better if you plan on keeping your libido (and raising it) and if you plan on not killing your joints and lipid profile. ATD is good if you just want to dry out, say bye bye to sex drive, and pretty much beat your joints into the ground. No brainer.

i had ZERO libido issues with ATD.

 

[UNX]

ATD is the most powerfull OTC AI available, but almost everybody is overdosing it and then comes the problems.

 

[datBtrue]

ATD is the most powerfull OTC AI available, but almost everybody is overdosing it and then comes the problems.

Amen brother. If I go two weeks w/ just 25mcg dosed every day my estrogen levels are so low ALL of my bones literally ache.

Sshhhh.....don't tell people though. I don't want the ATD supply to disappear again.

 

[nunes]

Was that from the Journal of International Society of Sports Nutrition?
I have that research article in pdf.
Here's a quote...


So estrone did increase in both doses but is this a "bad" thing. Also keep in mind that FT, DHT and T/E did as well. That's a nice balance in my opinion.

Maybe this is why some AI's will KILL libido (ie ATD). Estrogen is a necessity for good health. Too much is the problem. This is where bloodwork plays a MAJOR role.
Also, I have yet to hear anyone develop gyno from the 6-oxo or any other estrogen related sides as reported in the research paper as well.

first time I see this study, good job bro, by the way I saw recently PA saying that the 300mg dose of 6-oxo is the sweet spot

 

[Rugger]

How long does it take to see effects from oxo?

 

[Grassroots082]

BTW you may want to cap the trione powder, it tastes horrible. Leaves a nice rancid stinging taste in the back of the mouth. My best results were from taking a 1/2 of a 1/4 teaspoon (300 mg) with the last meal of the day. ATD in general confuses my ****, no matter the dosage and 6-OXO above 300 will do the same as well, clearly estrogen sensitive.

 

[Rugger]

I thought 1/4tsp was 600mg?

 

[Grassroots082]

It is.

 

[Ziquor]

Both do their AI job. It depends on the use (PCT, standalone, etc). IMO 6-OXO is much better for PCT as ATD's been shown to cause supression itself, rather than testes recovery. As far as ON cycle goes with an aromitizing AAS though I'd probably go with low dosed ATD.