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Havoc Before and After Pics

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    Too early, too soon, too young, too old, too pale, too sunburned, too tanned, too pumped, too flabby, too short, too skinny, not enough time training, not enough time on cycle, blah, blah, blah..............

    To the OP: Congratulations on your progress and your courage to post pics of yourself. You could have made some of that progress over a longer period of time through changes in your training, diet, and supplementation. You are an adult and you made an adult decision, so I cannot fault you for that. I just hope that you will exercise more caution with what you choose to do to advance your physique in the future.

    To everyone else: Exercise some class, b/c this man did not come into this looking to be flamed. He was excited about his progress and posted some pictures. Most of you have never posted a pic of yourself(or have an avatar) and you're making negative comments? Some of you don't even post what your age is within your profile and you're telling people they're not ready or are too young? I have caught many a person on the various forums who have lied about their age, had a bad physique and talked sh!t about another's appearance, gave advice on substances when their only experiences with them occurred through reading stickies, and just flat out gave bad advice in general. Sometimes its better to just take a breath instead of posting an opinion so you don't run the risk of coming off as an asshat.


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    Quote Originally Posted by slow-mun View Post
    Too early, too soon, too young, too old, too pale, too sunburned, too tanned, too pumped, too flabby, too short, too skinny, not enough time training, not enough time on cycle, blah, blah, blah..............

    To the OP: Congratulations on your progress and your courage to post pics of yourself. You could have made some of that progress over a longer period of time through changes in your training, diet, and supplementation. You are an adult and you made an adult decision, so I cannot fault you for that. I just hope that you will exercise more caution with what you choose to do to advance your physique in the future.

    To everyone else: Exercise some class, b/c this man did not come into this looking to be flamed. He was excited about his progress and posted some pictures. Most of you have never posted a pic of yourself(or have an avatar) and you're making negative comments? Some of you don't even post what your age is within your profile and you're telling people they're not ready or are too young? I have caught many a person on the various forums who have lied about their age, had a bad physique and talked sh!t about another's appearance, gave advice on substances when their only experiences with them occurred through reading stickies, and just flat out gave bad advice in general. Sometimes its better to just take a breath instead of posting an opinion so you don't run the risk of coming off as an asshat.
    I'm glad you posted this slow. I can't agree more. It's amazing how some people so easily pass judgement, yet never post a pic of themselves. That says more than enough in my eyes....

    BTW - I like the "asshat" comment lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    I'm glad you posted this slow. I can't agree more. It's amazing how some people so easily pass judgement, yet never post a pic of themselves. That says more than enough in my eyes....

    BTW - I like the "asshat" comment lol!
    If this thread would have stayed at 2 pages, I probably wouldn't have. I just felt the need once a thread in the steroids sub-forum popped up stating that people over 10% BF shouldn't cycle. I was just baffled by that and figured that this thread might have been a contributing factor. BTW, thanks for the above comments.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Trauma1 again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slow-mun View Post
    I just felt the need once a thread in the steroids sub-forum popped up stating that people over 10% BF shouldn't cycle. I was just baffled by that and figured that this thread might have been a contributing factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slow-mun View Post
    If this thread would have stayed at 2 pages, I probably wouldn't have. I just felt the need once a thread in the steroids sub-forum popped up stating that people over 10% BF shouldn't cycle. I was just baffled by that and figured that this thread might have been a contributing factor. BTW, thanks for the above comments.
    Lately i've tried to limit my bashing....mainly because i find it a waste of time usually. However, in this case it's very well warranted. You basically took the words out of my mouth!

    Nice work my axis brotha!

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    Quote Originally Posted by b unit View Post
    lol, me too

    Lol - Nice!

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    5'10"
    180lbs
    9% BF (average of three tests took at my gym last week)

    Do I qualify to post in this thread?

    Seriously though, I agree we should not attempt to objectify electives so personal as what we do or do not put in our body. Objective standards are nothing more than intellectual experiments: arbitrary classifications that exist only for biological-scientists and Philosophers to exercise their massive egos. With that being said, I've personally seen you tell individuals they 'must' use a SERM in P.C.T., or that an eighteen year old was too young - where does one draw the line?

    With no objectivity to be had, we must look to convergent points of inter-subjectivity to morally, legally, and culturally regulate each other - that is, decisions and normative values we feel are innately 'personally' but which many people share, and are actually innately 'collective' (this is how community works): in this respect, training knowledge, body awareness, compound knowledge, and a firm grasp on nutrition are points I'm sure we all think 'should' be possessed in order to make an informed decision on what to put it one's body.

    Without possessing any of these things - which I will make an assumption this poster does not - how is one to differentiate between direct and differential causes? If an error was to occur on cycle, which it does to the best of us, will he know how to correct it? Or even simpler, will he know what caused it? This type of knowledge is what experience and knowledge bring; being able to differentiate between serious and minor, direct and differential, and so on.

    What's ironic about the individuals in this thread complaining about objectifying someone's decision, is that if 'ogdlow' were to have come to this thread complaining about his hair loss, or gyno, or high BP, or cholestasis even, a resounding condemning would have occurred. So, it is unfair for me to inform this individual he probably made an uniformed decision because he made 'good gains'?

    Before anybody starts pointing "Double standard!" fingers around, they should detach the massive, looming whale of a double-standard attached to their back (not just you specifically).

    Quote Originally Posted by slow-mun View Post
    Too early, too soon, too young, too old, too pale, too sunburned, too tanned, too pumped, too flabby, too short, too skinny, not enough time training, not enough time on cycle, blah, blah, blah..............

    To the OP: Congratulations on your progress and your courage to post pics of yourself. You could have made some of that progress over a longer period of time through changes in your training, diet, and supplementation. You are an adult and you made an adult decision, so I cannot fault you for that. I just hope that you will exercise more caution with what you choose to do to advance your physique in the future.

    To everyone else: Exercise some class, b/c this man did not come into this looking to be flamed. He was excited about his progress and posted some pictures. Most of you have never posted a pic of yourself(or have an avatar) and you're making negative comments? Some of you don't even post what your age is within your profile and you're telling people they're not ready or are too young? I have caught many a person on the various forums who have lied about their age, had a bad physique and talked sh!t about another's appearance, gave advice on substances when their only experiences with them occurred through reading stickies, and just flat out gave bad advice in general. Sometimes its better to just take a breath instead of posting an opinion so you don't run the risk of coming off as an asshat.

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    Lance Armstrong=blood doping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    5'10"
    180lbs
    9% BF (average of three tests took at my gym last week)

    Do I qualify to post in this thread?

    Seriously though, I agree we should not attempt to objectify electives so personal as what we do or do not put in our body. Objective standards are nothing more than intellectual experiments: arbitrary classifications that exist only for biological-scientists and Philosophers to exercise their massive egos. With that being said, I've personally seen you tell individuals they 'must' use a SERM in P.C.T., or that an eighteen year old was too young - where does one draw the line?

    With no objectivity to be had, we must look to convergent points of inter-subjectivity to morally, legally, and culturally regulate each other - that is, decisions and normative values we feel are innately 'personally' but which many people share, and are actually innately 'collective' (this is how community works): in this respect, training knowledge, body awareness, compound knowledge, and a firm grasp on nutrition are points I'm sure we all think 'should' be possessed in order to make an informed decision on what to put it one's body.

    Without possessing any of these things - which I will make an assumption this poster does not - how is one to differentiate between direct and differential causes? If an error was to occur on cycle, which it does to the best of us, will he know how to correct it? Or even simpler, will he know what caused it? This type of knowledge is what experience and knowledge bring; being able to differentiate between serious and minor, direct and differential, and so on.

    What's ironic about the individuals in this thread complaining about objectifying someone's decision, is that if 'ogdlow' were to have come to this thread complaining about his hair loss, or gyno, or high BP, or cholestasis even, a resounding condemning would have occurred. So, it is unfair for me to inform this individual he probably made an uniformed decision because he made 'good gains'?

    Before anybody starts pointing "Double standard!" fingers around, they should detach the massive, looming whale of a double-standard attached to their back (not just you specifically).
    Amen

    If we dnn't point out our concerns we do him and others like him a diservice. Yes he made good gains - congratulations. Yes he might have been better advised not to do a cycle to get those gains. I wll always advise against premature use no matter what the progress that was made.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products

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    Quote Originally Posted by b unit View Post
    Definition of Pump:
    The look and feeling a bodybuilder experiences when his/her muscles engorge with blood as the result of intense exercise.

    Therefore with blood being the colour red and if the skin is white with low BF levels, just maybe - one might turn a slight shade of red when pumped.

    http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1075/...1cb55562_o.jpg
    http://www.2-bodybuilding.com/upload...1_p4010387.jpg

    also the OP said that he was in the sun that day, it's pretty clear by looking at the after pic that he was exposed to UV light.
    Cool, thx for the help, I'll certainly look into running a Havoc cycle in the near future. I also missed the post where he said he'd been in the sun as I didnt read half the posts in this thread, so thx for mentioning that too Bunit, repped for your help.

    I dunno if my posts were considered rude to the op (if so ya'll really need to lighten up), I was genuinely asking a question concerning health, but as I didnt congratulate the OP on his progress, good job man, a crapload of difference between the two pictures, especially for that short a period of time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by b unit View Post
    if those 6 days a week in the gym were lifting weights then IMHO it is way too much, this is not a lecture and i'm sharing by 18 years of lifting experience here.

    in most cases, too much = too little

    however thanks ogdlow for starting your thread and sharing your experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by b unit View Post
    the "picking him apart" done by certain posters may not influence the original poster however it may be of help to anyone that maybe considering running a cycle regardless of the length of time they've been training or their age.


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    I went to the doc today and she took my blood. I wont have the results for a day or two.. I will post as soon as i get them. I will aslo post some new pic as well. ... Stay tuned...

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    look forward to it

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    Quote Originally Posted by ogdlow View Post
    I went to the doc today and she took my blood. I wont have the results for a day or two.. I will post as soon as i get them. I will aslo post some new pic as well. ... Stay tuned...
    So... how were the results?

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    And.... The summer got me away from the thread.
    As for the test results. All was good.. BUT> ///

    My cholesterol was very high. The 4 scrambled eggs before bed every night might not have been a great idea.

    As for my gains.. Total was 16lbs .. and I have manage to keep 8lbs give or take a few .

    What I did notice was that Havoc really worked!! What I also noticed is that I managed to lose alot of my gains. I am still ahead and look much better, fuller, and strong than before the cycle.

    Next time I am going to do more research on PCT and maybe adjust it to find out what works for me.

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    i kno i am alil late but i thought id say "nice job " & take what you want dude you know the consequences allready .. we all do things that might not be the best idea but we only learn from .. but overall nice gains man

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    THanks Brotha!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ogdlow View Post

    What I did notice was that Havoc really worked!! What I also noticed is that I managed to lose alot of my gains. I am still ahead and look much better, fuller, and strong than before the cycle.
    It's good to have a good base foundation before using a product like havoc otherwise you will lose a lot of gains made while on cycle.

    Thank you for the update.

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    Here we go again boys. Its been almost 1 year and I am about to take my next cycle of Havoc. Wanting to drop my body fat and lean up. Looks like i will start in about 2 weeks. I will post more pics.. current befores and post my progress.

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    Just read the whole thread. Good luck with your cycle, should be an interesting read.

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