Who uses 'slow' released protein before sleep?

[Ziquor]

Who uses casein protein before sleep?

Namely casein. I've seen this both ways. I can understand the logic of keeping your body in positive nitrogen retention, yet there seem to be many who believe this to be a bad idea having the lower GI working throughout the night.

 

[ecu19]

Hmm guess i'm the only one that's voted.

I just don't buy the whole thing that your body instantly goes to muscle breakdown to provide energy while you sleep at night. The bodies method of using fuel is carbs, then fat (even body fat), then muscle. The body wants to hold onto muscle as much as possible, so it will use fat as its secondary fuel source. Remember the 9/4 calories for 1 fat or 1 protein gram respectively from bio class?

I haven't noticed any "muscle decrease" or strength just because I don't use a slow release protein at night.

 

[Ziquor]

Interesting POV. The big 'possible' negatives I've seen is the long digesting process of Casein before bed can possibly interfere with sleep and possibly decrease spikes of HGH during sleep.

 

[LeeN]

I've seen this both ways. I can understand the logic of keeping your body in positive nitrogen retention, yet there seem to be many who believe this to be a bad idea having the lower GI working throughout the night.

If by "slow release", you mean Casein...yes I try to ingest some each night. I've supplemented with powder, but now I just eat some low-fat cottage cheese.

 

[Ziquor]

Yeah, I clarified the question. Specifically casein with it having a 7 hour average digestion time.

 

[ralph4u2c]

im a fan of it, i like ultra peptide 1.0...its like a midnight snack and does my body good all at the same time.

 

[SilentBob187]

I used to but not any more. I load up on fats and sometimes bcaas about an hour to 30 minutes before bed. I'd rather have my body work on GH production and recovery while I sleep rather than digesting. Just my 2 cents, certainly not right or wrong, just my preference.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

It's not going to matter if you are bulking.

Cutting... it depends.

 

[nunes]

I use the est proteins (ana or bio pro blend) and for me having some slow digestion proteins before bed its a must have cause if I don't take them I simply cant fall a sleep with hunger cramps, they have low calories and a good taste.

 

[ms3jake]

What is a good tasting casein product. I tried ON's chocolate and its undrinkable. Its surprising since ON's whey tastes so great.

 

[OCCFan023]

The majority of the time I just take in some cottage cheese and maybe some skim milk. However if I need the convenience I will go with a casein shake (and thats fats are kept staples of flax, almonds, or pb). Also always with broccoli.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

What is a good tasting casein product. I tried ON's chocolate and its undrinkable. Its surprising since ON's whey tastes so great.

Xtreme Formulations Ultra Peptide is great tasting and superior quality.

 

[LatsRus]

high fat high protein meal - eggs and fish for me. i like this and also hate waking up still feeling full while having to eat breakfast. i used to wake up halfway through sleeping for a protein shake, but found this to just make breakfast harder to eat and i felt less rested. ive been making great gains with eggs and fish before bed as apart of my diet so ima say no to casein.

 

[strategicmove]

...possibly decrease spikes of HGH during sleep.

Yep! Personally, this is the reason I avoid such supplementation.

 

[OCCFan023]

high fat high protein meal - eggs and fish for me. i like this and also hate waking up still feeling full while having to eat breakfast. i used to wake up halfway through sleeping for a protein shake, but found this to just make breakfast harder to eat and i felt less rested. ive been making great gains with eggs and fish before bed as apart of my diet so ima say no to casein.

I was eating 3 whole eggs as my pre bed meal when running the CKD. I actually really enjoyed it, and may have to give that a try again.

 

[jjohn]

I use Ultra Peptide as my only shake source. I beleive that using casein all day is far more anti-catabolic than the regular whey formulas.

 

[TonySmiles]

Hmm guess i'm the only one that's voted.

I just don't buy the whole thing that your body instantly goes to muscle breakdown to provide energy while you sleep at night. The bodies method of using fuel is carbs, then fat (even body fat), then muscle. The body wants to hold onto muscle as much as possible, so it will use fat as its secondary fuel source. Remember the 9/4 calories for 1 fat or 1 protein gram respectively from bio class?

I haven't noticed any "muscle decrease" or strength just because I don't use a slow release protein at night.

TOTALLY AGREE, but at the same time, if what you are currently doing works for YOU, then don't fix what ain't broken.

 

[nunes]

Hmm guess i'm the only one that's voted.

I just don't buy the whole thing that your body instantly goes to muscle breakdown to provide energy while you sleep at night. The bodies method of using fuel is carbs, then fat (even body fat), then muscle. The body wants to hold onto muscle as much as possible, so it will use fat as its secondary fuel source. Remember the 9/4 calories for 1 fat or 1 protein gram respectively from bio class?

I haven't noticed any "muscle decrease" or strength just because I don't use a slow release protein at night.

I understand this point of view but the body isn't searching for energy when we go to bed, if a hard training was done probably what the body need is aminoacids to a faster and improved recovery, if we don't provide amino's the body will search for them , and you know where the body will find them...
I personally think my recovery is faster with a late night protein shake

 

[Ziquor]

Lots of good info. I'm sorta 'stuck in my own ways' at times as I've been using casein for years. But after much of the readings I've done this past year I recently started to drink a very small whey shake & eat a very small amount of FF cottage cheese, again not much, before bed. My sleep feels as it's improved already. I used to drink MHP's Probolic-SR with FF skim getting about 52 grams of protein before bed. Seems like much overkill for nothing now that I've seen both ways.

 

[Rodja]

Sometimes I do, but it depends on what my budget allows at that moment. If I don't have enough for a casein blend, then I just eat some whole eggs and some other whole-food protein.

 

[T-Bone]

I voted no. My reasoning is in this thread I started a while back,

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/77484-casein-pre-bed.html

 

[Ziquor]

I voted no. My reasoning is in this thread I started a while back,

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/77484-casein-pre-bed.html

Yeah, that's a good thread w/ lots of great point of views. That's one of the few threads that motivated this poll.

 

[JJC]

What is a good tasting casein product. I tried ON's chocolate and its undrinkable. Its surprising since ON's whey tastes so great.

ON's Vanilla Casein is quite good (the chocolate is not great at all). Try that out. Their whey is bad....not sure why people think their whey tastes so great. :think:

 

[Ziquor]

One thing with casein proteins is they're much more 'clumpy' than whey similar to cottage cheese which slows down the absorption rates but also makes them more difficult to mix thoroughly. So in an equal amount of FF milk or water, a casein shake is typically more thick & chalky compared to whey. This is one thing I dislike about casein, especially if you try consuming > 30 grams at once.

 

[Steveoph]

I voted no because I either have a big omelette w/ cheese 1.5-2hours pre-bed, or some lean protein + Tbsp or two of Coconut oil.
If I'm really tight for time, I might have a casein shake/cottage cheese.

 

[Growth Junkie]

Hmm guess i'm the only one that's voted.

I just don't buy the whole thing that your body instantly goes to muscle breakdown to provide energy while you sleep at night. The bodies method of using fuel is carbs, then fat (even body fat), then muscle. The body wants to hold onto muscle as much as possible, so it will use fat as its secondary fuel source. Remember the 9/4 calories for 1 fat or 1 protein gram respectively from bio class?

I haven't noticed any "muscle decrease" or strength just because I don't use a slow release protein at night.

That sequence of fuel source recruitment (carb-fat-protein) is an old notion and becoming less accepted.

Who told you the body wants to hold onto as much protein as possible? The humasn body wants to stay alive. That is why our body's adapt to training. It is detected as an external stressful stimulus and the body believes to improve the chance of surviving it needs to adapt to this stimulus to make the next encounter less stressful.

Our bodies are designed for survival and believe it or not building large amounts of muscle is not high on the list of priority's. That is why we take numerous measures to ensure a state of homeostasis is maintiained so the body can then take care of matters not as pressing eg:building muscle.

This survival mechanism is exactly why when the starvation mechasnism is triggered the body will hold onto the calorie dense fat (9kcal) as opposed to the musch smaller yeilding energy source of protein (4kcal).

I feel pre bed shake aids in muscle building and it make sense to have aminos in the blood to take advantage of high GH levels 2 hours after sleep is induced - just like post training.

I agree you are not going to fade away missing a pre-bed shake.

 

[andro69]

I don't. I've tried it for awhile and didn't notice any benefits to it. So I spend the extra money on chicken.

 

[Brolic]

yes, bc milk is my staple

 

[DaveGabe24]

One thing with casein proteins is they're much more 'clumpy' than whey similar to cottage cheese which slows down the absorption rates but also makes them more difficult to mix thoroughly. So in an equal amount of FF milk or water, a casein shake is typically more thick & chalky compared to whey. This is one thing I dislike about casein, especially if you try consuming > 30 grams at once.

Gotta use a blender.



My personal favorite is Milk Protein Isolate, buy it 15lbs at a time. I love it, but like people said it's really clumpy. So I blend it, and give it a few minutes to settle back down after it gets so aerated.

 

[ecu19]

That sequence of fuel source recruitment (carb-fat-protein) is an old notion and becoming less accepted.

Who told you the body wants to hold onto as much protein as possible? The humasn body wants to stay alive. That is why our body's adapt to training. It is detected as an external stressful stimulus and the body believes to improve the chance of surviving it needs to adapt to this stimulus to make the next encounter less stressful.

Do you mind backing that up with some sources/studies? Why is the sequence an old notion? Why is it becoming less accepted? By who?

The body utilizes energy in that sequence (carbs->fats/lipids->protein last) because that is the most efficient sequence of energy. Fats have more energy to expend when broken down, so the body will use that as the secondary source of energy. Protein is the worst source of ENERGY (not muscle building source, pure energy) our body can utilize. Remember that whole cellular respiration portion of bio class? Glycolysis (glucose->pyruvate), formation of acetyl coa from pyruvate, Krebs cycle (acetyl coa loop), then the ETC (electron transport chain, jackpot baby!).

This also ties into the whole aerobic versus anaerobic respiration. Aerobic respiration is utilized and preferred by the body because it has the greatest outcome of produced energy (36atp i believe vs. just 2 for anaerobic). The body will not perform anaerobic respiration if it has oxygen to perform aerobic respiration. Why? Because it's more efficient to perform aerobic, and it will if it can.

 

[Growth Junkie]

Do you mind backing that up with some sources/studies? Why is the sequence an old notion? Why is it becoming less accepted? By who?

The body utilizes energy in that sequence (carbs->fats/lipids->protein last) because that is the most efficient sequence of energy. Fats have more energy to expend when broken down, so the body will use that as the secondary source of energy. Protein is the worst source of ENERGY (not muscle building source, pure energy) our body can utilize. Remember that whole cellular respiration portion of bio class? Glycolysis (glucose->pyruvate), formation of acetyl coa from pyruvate, Krebs cycle (acetyl coa loop), then the ETC (electron transport chain, jackpot baby!).

This also ties into the whole aerobic versus anaerobic respiration. Aerobic respiration is utilized and preferred by the body because it has the greatest outcome of produced energy (36atp i believe vs. just 2 for anaerobic). The body will not perform anaerobic respiration if it has oxygen to perform aerobic respiration. Why? Because it's more efficient to perform aerobic, and it will if it can.

OK I probably should have elaborated a bit more than i did. Just to clear the air...was not raggin on you so my appologies if it came off that way. Not disputing that CHO's are the most efficient form of energy and definately not rebuting on the aerobic vs. anaerobic BUT...no i don't mind backing it up..

All i was trying to point out was that we now know there is more of a crossover effect when utilizing the macronutrients for energy than previously thought. Meaning that is you are in a CHO depleted state your body burn just fat but will also utilize protein conjointly well before you run out of fat. The idea of utilizing one macronutrient then shifting to another is old and protein is brought into play to a greater extent than previously thought. The errors in early data collected are also exlpained. References below.

"More recent research on proteijn balance in exercise presents a compelling argument that protein serves as energy fuel to a much greater extent than previously believed, depending on energy expenditure and nutritional status...exercise in a carbohydrate depleted state caused significantly more protein catabolism than protein breakdown with ample carbohydrate reserves."

McArdle W., Katch F. & Katch V. (2005). Sport and Exercise Nutrition 2nd Edition p162.

"Initial attempts to evaluate the rolesof amino acids and proteins in supporting exercise were based on urinary nitrogen excretion determinations that did not take into account the substantial nitrogen loss in sweat or the complete balance of nitrogen input versus loss reulting from exercise. Hence, it was widely believed that only carbohydrates and fats were oxidized during exercise. We now know, however, that amino acids (e.g. leucine) are important for the preservation of homeostasis during exercise....more recently, on humans, it now appears that the oxidation of particular amino acids, including essential amino acids such as leucine is increased in proprtion to the increase in Vo2.."

Brooks G., Fahey T., White T., Baldwin K. (2000). Exercise Physiology. Human Bioenergetics and Its Applications 3rd Edition. P 687-688

 

[LSU Gladiator]

You can mix your regular whey with a fiber supplement and drink that before you go to sleep - the fiber will slow the rate of protein absorption down such that it is comparable to the rate of casein absorption. Plus you get to take a revitalizing dump in the morning! :woohoo:

Casein products are overpriced anyhow.

 

[DreamWeaver]

I don't because I don't have any problems maintaining or gaining mass at this time. I am not sure this is even necessary for people of my body type.

 

[Rodja]

You can mix your regular whey with a fiber supplement and drink that before you go to sleep - the fiber will slow the rate of protein absorption down such that it is comparable to the rate of casein absorption. Plus you get to take a revitalizing dump in the morning! :woohoo:

Casein products are overpriced anyhow.

A good MPI is cheaper than WPI nowadays. Best of both worlds that way, especially when combined with some EFAs.

 

[DreamOfWeight]

i only take it when i dont take my zmk

 

[TOYFORDOLET]

I'm all about Milk Protein as it has a nice ratio of whey/casein, cottage cheese is also a night time staple for me. Mix this with some natty pb and/or peanuts and Im good to go til the morning.

 

[ndawson89]

yeah i use ultra peptide, just bought a can and thinking of having it as part of my staple, instead of purely whey as i've been using.

 

[MrBrightside]

Skim milk works just fine. I don't need a powder for Casein.

 

[DaveGabe24]

Skim milk works just fine. I don't need a powder for Casein.

Dont need a powder for casein?



MPI + Natty PB is my fav combo

 

[bigjohn58]

I use ON's chocolate Casein and if you let it sit after mixing it it becomes cake batter but if you drink it right away then its fine. I switch every other night usually one night casein the next night cottage cheese and a glass of skim milk.

 

[MrBrightside]

Dont need a powder for casein?



MPI + Natty PB is my fav combo

Milk and cheese protein is composed of give or take 80% Casein. So, yes, I do not need a powder.

 

[TOYFORDOLET]

The problem with milk as the only source of protein means you have to take in lots of carbs in order to get enough protein, and while this could be fine for day time meals, I don't think this is ideal for a pre-bed meal.

 

[smshannon001]

i only did casein during hell week for football in high school because of the double up on practice (didnt want to burn as much muscle)
and i would use it on days i would have practice and lift, but IMO i dont see it as necessary and wont spend the money on it now

 

[Outside Backer]

i dont do it anymore i sleep better when my body is resting and not working to digest

 

[ams1]

i just drink my protein and sleep. i like being full

 

[wrasslin116]

Yes I use slow release protein so it digests longer prolonging the catabolic state.
I'm to cheap for casein protein so I use 1 cup cottage cheese fat free.