[KgTomCat]

I recently got a bottle of 17-HD by Vyotech, and I also have 2 bottles of Lipo 6x and Hot-Rox. Im trying to get as lean as possible, and gain some muscle if possible. What do you think I should do? Run the fat burners..which one? Then 17-HD, or stack them???

Also, if I run the fat burners over the summer, I can do the 17-HD with creatine in the fall when Im bulking...

[TexasLifter89]

i wouldnt run them together. IMO i would run a bulk first then a cut. so use the 17HD then come back and cut.

[TexasLifter89]

I believe Lipo 6 is the better weight loss of the two and Hotrox is good as well but gives you more energy

[Good Shepherd]

Originally Posted by KgTomCat

I recently got a bottle of 17-HD by Vyotech, and I also have 2 bottles of Lipo 6x and Hot-Rox. Im trying to get as lean as possible, and gain some muscle if possible. What do you think I should do? Run the fat burners..which one? Then 17-HD, or stack them???

Also, if I run the fat burners over the summer, I can do the 17-HD with creatine in the fall when Im bulking...

Which version of Hot rox do you have? If it is Hot rox etreme I would chose this product. I have used it a ton and think highly of it. You could stack it w/ the 17 hd and not have blood pressure issues.
why did you decide to go the vyo tech product? Their original viroloid product was good, beyond that I wouldnt recommend any of their products. Tried them and dont think much of them.

[jjohn]

Please please please read about 17-HD.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE!

You'll see it really is crap, and even dangerous. Raises oestrogen levels... Raises blood pressure...

[Vipersg123]

Originally Posted by jjohn

Please please please read about 17-HD.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE!

You'll see it really is crap, and even dangerous. Raises oestrogen levels... Raises blood pressure...

really? I just thought in general it was bunk. They tried playing their propriety blend as a name that sounds like a steroid making it look like it had all the herbal stuff and then the 17-halo blahblahbblbha.

[jjohn]

Originally Posted by Vipersg123

really? I just thought in general it was bunk. They tried playing their propriety blend as a name that sounds like a steroid making it look like it had all the herbal stuff and then the 17-halo blahblahbblbha.

Yep. Really.

[KgTomCat]

Well....jjohn=ive researched 17-HD and its a mixed review, everyone is different ya know? some liked it some didnt...goodshepherd=the Hot-Rox is the Extreme, I've used it before, idk how it did on my fat burning but it gave me a LOAD of energy. The yohmine in it I think adds to the effect. I was thinking i could use the Hot-Rox Extreme this summer to get really lean, then in the fall (when i bulk) use the 17-HD with some CE2 and Anavol Creatine I have.

[slow-mun]

Originally Posted by KgTomCat

Well....jjohn=ive researched 17-HD and its a mixed review, everyone is different ya know? some liked it some didnt...goodshepherd=the Hot-Rox is the Extreme, I've used it before, idk how it did on my fat burning but it gave me a LOAD of energy. The yohmine in it I think adds to the effect. I was thinking i could use the Hot-Rox Extreme this summer to get really lean, then in the fall (when i bulk) use the 17-HD with some CE2 and Anavol Creatine I have.

Like is a very subjective term. Its the ingredients and science that make 17-HD questionable.

[slow-mun]

Here's a post from Androgenic of MAN

I will explain how this product bothers me on an unparalleled scale. It is what is wrong with the industry. Shawn Ray uses it…hmm. This product is deceptive, trying to sound like a prohormone or even a potent steroid. The company has stated they did not decide on the name or try and be deceptive it was what the “scientist� (seriously) named it...so that's what they went with...HAHAHA! Even if they have a "scientist" of some sort, which they probably don't, that guy is not in control of their financial fate in the naming/marketing/advertising of the product.

17-HD (17-Halo-Methyl-Dianadrone): To review the choice of name here, by marketing NOT SCIENCE…let’s review.

1.)17 – As is c17a, the 17th carbon at the alpha position is where anabolic steroids have their potency and toxicity and often is where a methyl group is as attached.
2.)Halo – Besides being a great X-Box game, it is another group of steroids such as the popular halotestin, also halodrol is quite popular in the prohormone world.
3.)Methyl – See #1. Also – see buzz word of the year (#2 is ethyl ester)
4.)Dianadrone – Diana(bol) aka methandrostenolone, comes pretty close to hitting the whole 17-HD name is one fall swoop.
5.)17-HD, or 17-Halo-Methyl-Dianadrone, sounds like a chemical compound doesn’t it? Sounds like one heck of a methylated potent oral steroid. Right?

Guess what? It’s not. Matter of fact it’s just a bunch of herbs. I’d say this is pretty deceptive so far, but lets get into the useless or even counterproductive part.


Here is the ingredients according to the write-up:

17- Halo-Methyl-Dianadrone: 400mg
Ge Gan (pueraria lobota)
Smilax Officinalis
N.O. Oliliacae

Betaecdysterone 100mg
Wild yam extract 100mg
Glabra 100mg
Phosphatidyl choline 50mg
Citric acid 50mg

__________________________________________________ ________________
We'll start with wild yam and go from there.
Wild Yam is great at regulating estrogen...there's a potent benefit! And I will quote:

"Wild yam has been used for menstrual cramps or pain, menopausal symptoms, rheumatic conditions, and gallbladder complaints. Wild yam is sometimes suggested as an alternative to hormone replacement therapy. While components of wild yam are chemically manufactured into the hormones progesterone or estrogen, the body is unable to use wild yam in the same way."
wild yam medical facts from Drugs.com

__________________________________________________ ________________________________
Ge Gen is aka kudzu and I quote:

"Chemicals extracted from kudzu include isoflavones known as daidzein, daidzin, genistein, and puerarin. Isoflavones are plant chemicals that have estrogenic and antioxidant effects."
http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/DVH/Her...Ge+Gen,00.html

__________________________________________________ ________________________________

How 'bout Smilax? Let's go for the trifecta shall we? Smilax officinalis is also known as sarsparilla.
I'll quote again...

"In the United States, sarsaparilla is sold primarily as an oral remedy for skin conditions such as psoriasis. It is believed that chemicals in sarsaparilla may attach to endotoxins (the remnants of bacterial cells) that are common in individuals with psoriasis and certain other conditions. By eliminating or reducing the amounts of endotoxins in the body, sarsaparilla may help to relieve the condition.

Orally, sarsaparilla also has weak diuretic and laxative effects, which may make it useful in promoting the loss of excess water from the body and also in treating mild constipation. It may also promote sweating, which may help to reduce fever. Additionally, sarsaparilla contains chemicals that may act as a mild expectorant – a substance that may loosen bronchial mucus and promote coughing. However, none of these effects has been verified through clinical studies and they may vary greatly depending on the amounts and type of sarsaparilla that is used. "
http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/DVH/Her...inalis,00.html
__________________________________________________ ________________________________
Hmm...well we've established it raises estrogen, has laxative effects...is there anything else this miracle supplement can do for me you ask?

Well I am glad you asked...Glabra is cute renaming (as every ingredient is and the product itself) of Glycyrrhiza glabra, aka Licorice. Licorice you say? Yes, THE ultimate bodybuilding supplement. And I will quote:

"Licorice is also a mild laxative. Large doses of glycyrrhizinic acid and glycyrrhetinic acid in liquorice extract can lead to hypokalemia and serious increases in blood pressure, a syndrome known as apparent mineralocorticoid excess. These side effects stem from the inhibition of the enzyme 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (type 2) and subsequent increase in activity of cortisol on the kidney. 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase normally inactivates cortisol in the kidney; thus, licorice's inactivation of this enzyme makes the concentration of cortisol appear to increase. Cortisol acts at the same receptor as the hormone aldosterone in the kidney; thus, the effects mimic aldosterone excess, although aldosterone remains low or normal during licorice overdose. Cortisol does not actually increase either; however, its activity in the kidney effectively increases due to the disabling of this enzyme. To decrease the chances of these serious side effects, deglycyrrhizinated licorice (DGL) preparations are available.

Licorice affects the body's endocrine system. It can lower the amount of serum testosterone, but whether it affects the amount of free testosterone is unclear. A PubMed search for licorice AND testosterone will provide additional information."
Liquorice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, cool, Licorice decrease testosterone, increases blood pressure and may increase catabolic hormones. Oh yeah, and again its a laxative.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________

So lets tally up the results: we got elevated estrogen, decreased testosterone, increased cortisol, increased blood pressure, and 2 laxatives.

Lastly, there is one ingredient listed that, in fact, does not exist…so I can’t tell you what it is other than it is an herb. N.O. (sounds like Nitric Oxide – Buzz Word!) Olilicae. Sorry. Given the collective data one WHAT IS IN THERE, I wouldn’t hope for much.

Well the only thing of benefit I see here is the 50mg of Vitamin C (citric acid), which doesn't even meet the lowly RDA. Sweet formulation. Really.

Good luck to anyone who uses this. The supplement industry loves you.
__________________
Shawn D. Wells, MPH, RD
Chief Scientific Officer - MAN Sports, Inc.

Soy Isoflavones lower testosterone: Estrogen-specific 17 beta-hydroxysteroid
Soy and men: Phytoestrogens & Male Health
__________________

[jjohn]

There you go. Exactly what I was looking for

[Big BAMA]

So with two laxatives should we call it 17-Huge Dump.
Stay out of GNC!

[tomato head]

Reps Slow-mun! good post!

[MuscleMadness]

Wow, I just saw this product in the GNC up by my house the other day, (I stroll in there from time to time to see the new ways they advertise crap at re-ridiculously high prices) and I saw that 17-HD. Definitely caught my eye and when I read the ingredients I thought, "WOW, is GNC really selling this!?!?" but i didn't want to