can someone catch me up to speed ?

[ReaperX]

Asking this probably makes me a bb'ing noob, but I'll ask it anyway.


1. I was always under the impression that LMB gains are due to actual lean mass gained. How is losing fat attributed to a +5 lbs when it was actually just 5 lbs of fat lost ?


2. I am not familar with all the fancy different diets out there, like CKD, keto, anabolic, velocity, etc. There is too much to try and capture and it is already hard enough as it is trying to keep up with these fancy training hybrids as well.

I just adjust ratios in my diet.


maint: 40-40-20
cut (above 10%): 35-45-20
cut (below 10%): 25-50-25
bulk: 42.5-42.5-15


Someone please give me the condensed version of all the various diets out there b/c I am not familar with them.

 

[LazeDragon]

Asking this probably makes me a bb'ing noob, but I'll ask it anyway.


1. I was always under the impression that LMB gains are due to actual lean mass gained. How is losing fat attributed to a +5 lbs when it was actually just 5 lbs of fat lost ?


2. I am not familar with all the fancy different diets out there, like CKD, keto, anabolic, velocity, etc. There is too much to try and capture and it is already hard enough as it is trying to keep up with these fancy training hybrids as well.

I just adjust ratios in my diet.


maint: 40-40-20
cut (above 10%): 35-45-20
cut (below 10%): 25-50-25
bulk: 42.5-42.5-15


Someone please give me the condensed version of all the various diets out there b/c I am not familar with them.

1) You are right. However if say you were testing BF% and your weight per say you didn't loose any weight and are kind of bummed....check your BF% and you lost there, but weight didn't change.....that's an increase in LBM. Some people misconstrue this concept, but that is what they mean.

2) I don't believe in diets....eating healthy should be a way of life. Diets don't work...you'll eventually gain it back!! So needless to say I can't help you in this department. Check out fitday.com....you can track your calories daily for free.

LD

 

[ReaperX]

1) You are right. However if say you were testing BF% and your weight per say you didn't loose any weight and are kind of bummed....check your BF% and you lost there, but weight didn't change.....that's an increase in LBM. Some people misconstrue this concept, but that is what they mean.

2) I don't believe in diets....eating healthy should be a way of life. Diets don't work...you'll eventually gain it back!! So needless to say I can't help you in this department. Check out fitday.com....you can track your calories daily for free.

LD

thanks. reps.


the LBM thing is odd. Losing fat, but attributing LBM gain is some sort of weird rationalization.

 

[OCCFan023]

Where did you see a 5 lbs fat loss result in + 5 lbs gain in LBM? That makes no sense since LBM isn't a ratio of LBM to fat mass right?

CKD is a ketogenic diet (there a couple of different versions.

CKD: Cyclical ketogenic diet where you go no carb fox x amount of days to achieve ketosis. Then on a 6th or whatever day you want (really depends on how much fat you have to loose) you carb up to replenish your glycogen stores (its suppose to aid your training but it really doesn't do much on that front,) reset negative levels of hormones affected by the cal deficit, and just give you a mental break. You then follow your carb up with depletion workouts to deplete your muscle glycogen again and achieve ketosis.
TKD: Pretty much the same as above but you don't do regular carb ups and instead sandwich your training with some carbs. Much better option for training gains than a CKD.

I am not familiar with the velocity diet or anabolic diet but I know they employ the ketogenic diet principles.

 

[ReaperX]

No carbs eh ? I think for certain people they might be able to pull this one off. I am a strong endo so I have to watch my carb intake. At the same time though, I can't drop my carbs too low or else I get excessively lethargic.


Last week for the hell of it, I tried dropping my carbs to 50g each day. That lasted for about 4 days of excessive lethargy, I could barely workout/function. I upped my carbs back up as it was exceedingly difficult to function.

Work+school has a tendency to get in the way a lot of dieting/training.

 

[ReaperX]

I'm not sure where I saw this, but I occassionally see people saying that they are up +5 LBM.

I am pretty impressed with such a muscle gain, then they say it was from fat loss or something.

 

[LazeDragon]

thanks. reps.


the LBM thing is odd. Losing fat, but attributing LBM gain is some sort of weird rationalization.

Weird at first but it makes sense if you think about it, if no actually body weight is lost. That's why I tell my clients don't jugde your body by the scale....use the mirror and BF% (and of course how your clothes fit). That is if they get frustrated and think they have stop losing fat. Most people will notice this and just give up even though they were making progress, they just didn't see it on the scale.

LD

 

[OCCFan023]

I am actually doing the CKD and am at 7 grams a day (and like you I usually go to absolute crap without carbs.) The first week is the transition phase where your body adapts to using ketones for fuel, but this comes with the noted lethargy and so on. However once your body adjusts (takes about a week or so) you really don't feel tired but your workouts will suffer a bit (I wa never tired even during week 1 thanks to RPM.) Honestly I am doing it now and will finish off my cut with it but after it I will never do a strict CKD again (because of the training effects.) However a TKD is very promising imo if you are carb sensitive and want to try a low carb approach.

Well if you drop 5 lbs of fat and remain the same weight (unless your on anabolics) it isn't going to be muscle but it is still LBM (lbm is not just muscle mass so I can drink a gallon of water and be up 8lbs LBM.) So that could be the discrepancy.

 

[ReaperX]

bump.

I only got 2 responses.


Anyone else want to give some input about those other diets ?

 

[Xodus]

bump.

I only got 2 responses.


Anyone else want to give some input about those other diets ?

go over to t-nation and read about the v-diet. Basically it is a modified VLCD. 1500-2000 cals.

6 protein shakes a day, fish oil, surge (carb source PWO), fiber tabs, and hot-rox (thermogenic).

anabolic diet/metabolic diet is another low carb/cycling type diet, similar to atkins. Google Mario Di Pasquale and Anabolic Diet.

If you gave up on low carb after 4 days, you didn't give it enough time. Yeah, it sucks, but eventually your body switches to using fats for energy instead of carb sources and you feel WAY better than you ever have, no more highs and crashes.

 

[Botch]

Anabolic diet = not CKD. The theory of this diet is that you drop down your carbs to about 30g per day, just enough to hover outside of ketosis (which is catabolic). After being on this diet for long enough, you no longer enter ketosis as your body adapts. The diet relies on the various hormonal and chatecholamine responses that go with the shifting of high fat/low carb to high carbs. For instance: during the week when your body isn't releasing insulin you will have chatecholamines in abundance and you'll be producing more growth hormone and testosterone. But once the carb up comes (at least for the first 24 hours) you start releasing insulin at the same time that your body is still releasing growth hormone. This is something that you can't acheive with over the counter supplements.

Another benefit to the various CKD's and TKD's is that it allows you to cut on a hypocaloric diet. Also, these types of diets are great for increasing insulin sensitivity for someone such as yourself who seems to have a problem with carbs. I could probably go on and on about the benefits of these diets for hours. I'll sum it up by saying if you decide to give it a shot you'll find it's superior to any of the diets you've tried in the past.

 

[OCCFan023]

ketosis isn't straight up catabolic.

 

[Botch]

I am actually doing the CKD and am at 7 grams a day (and like you I usually go to absolute crap without carbs.) The first week is the transition phase where your body adapts to using ketones for fuel, but this comes with the noted lethargy and so on. However once your body adjusts (takes about a week or so) you really don't feel tired but your workouts will suffer a bit (I wa never tired even during week 1 thanks to RPM.) Honestly I am doing it now and will finish off my cut with it but after it I will never do a strict CKD again (because of the training effects.) However a TKD is very promising imo if you are carb sensitive and want to try a low carb approach.

Well if you drop 5 lbs of fat and remain the same weight (unless your on anabolics) it isn't going to be muscle but it is still LBM (lbm is not just muscle mass so I can drink a gallon of water and be up 8lbs LBM.) So that could be the discrepancy.

What do your workouts look like? Also, do you do cardio? If your training is tailored to the diet then your workouts shouldn't suffer.

 

[OCCFan023]

I do cardio and the workouts are tailored to the depletion of muscle glycogen to certain mmol levels to quickly enter ketosis.

 

[Botch]

ketosis isn't straight up catabolic.

Agreed. What I meant is that its more catablic than being out of ketosis.

 

[OCCFan023]

I'm curious as to how you cut on a hypocaloric diet though (recomp yes, purley fat loss without supplemental aid though)? Also are the carbs sandwiched around the workout (because than its just a TKD.) Its definitely not a CKD but sounds pretty much like a keto diet to me.

 

[Botch]

I do cardio and the workouts are tailored to the depletion of muscle glycogen to certain mmol levels to quickly enter ketosis.

Are you doing tension workouts earlier in the week and a depletion workout on Friday (if you carb up sat/sun)? I am on a CKD right now depleting myself to certain mmol levels during different days of the week as well. I've been cycling carbs for 6 months now and only recently did I quit doing cardio with it. My workouts have improved drastically. Do you ever get that lactic acid burn in your legs when you are for instance, walking up stairs in the latter part of the week? Cardio can make you feel depleted when you're actually not. Since I stopped doing cardio I have lowered calories accordingly but have had much better workouts all while losing fat.
Another quesiton for you, do you use any insulin supplements during your low carb days (i.e., R-ALA)?

 

[Botch]

I'm curious as to how you cut on a hypocaloric diet though (recomp yes, purley fat loss without supplemental aid though)? Also are the carbs sandwiched around the workout (because than its just a TKD.) Its definitely not a CKD but sounds pretty much like a keto diet to me.

It's based around the idea of glycogen supercompensation. For instance, since today is Friday I started carbing up directly after my workout to get maximum supercomp. and I eat in stages and substages. First four meals I am consuming ~900 calories per meal. This is 144g carbs, 50g protein, 10g fat. Then I go down to 108g carbs for the next 4 meals and adjust macros accordingly. The first 24 hours is high GI carbs (mostly sugars, glucose polymers, some starches) and the second 24 hours is lower GI carbs (pasta, rice, potatoes) as insulin sensitivity is declining. My carb up lasts 48 hours and I don't gain a pound of fat. Then on Sunday I go back to the low carb/high fat lower calories and repeat

 

[OCCFan023]

I Carb up every 6th day (800 grams of carbs) and then the next 5 days look like this.

1) 45 minute low intensity empty stomach.
2) Lower body tension depletion (jump rope after to my liking)
3) Upper body tension depletion (jump rope after to my liking)
4) 30 minuets cardio low intensity
5) 30 minuets cardio low intensity
6) Full body workout to fully deplete and make the carb up more anabolic.

No ala on low days (only 9 grams of carbs, don't want to deal with it. US AP and P-Slin on carb ups)

I feel no lactic burn doing normal stuff throughout the week (still taking in 2500 cals so I am getting enough nutrients.) If I drop to below or at 2000 calories I won't do the second two days of cardio (would be to afraid of muscle loss.) I love my carbs and my workouts go to crap without them (no matter if I do cardio or not.) I like this diet for the carb ups but in the future will stick to 50-100 grams a day around my workout if I ever do low carb again (my plan is to never really have to cut much and stay at the same bf year round.)

 

[OCCFan023]

It's based around the idea of glycogen supercompensation. For instance, since today is Friday I started carbing up directly after my workout to get maximum supercomp. and I eat in stages and substages. First four meals I am consuming ~900 calories per meal. This is 144g carbs, 50g protein, 10g fat. Then I go down to 108g carbs for the next 4 meals and adjust macros accordingly. The first 24 hours is high GI carbs (mostly sugars, glucose polymers, some starches) and the second 24 hours is lower GI carbs (pasta, rice, potatoes) as insulin sensitivity is declining. My carb up lasts 48 hours and I don't gain a pound of fat. Then on Sunday I go back to the low carb/high fat lower calories and repeat

Yea thats a CKD (if your carbs are negligible the next few days.) I personally don't do the HI gi carbs on my carb ups because it offers no benefit over low gi for faster replenishment/glycogen storage since you won't be training again that day. Your still in a cal deficit those next few pro/fat days though right?

edit* Ok you said you were doing a CKD. I thought you were talking about the VD.

 

[Botch]

I Carb up every 6th day (800 grams of carbs) and then the next 5 days look like this.

1) 45 minute low intensity empty stomach.
2) Lower body tension depletion (jump rope after to my liking)
3) Upper body tension depletion (jump rope after to my liking)
4) 30 minuets cardio low intensity
5) 30 minuets cardio low intensity
6) Full body workout to fully deplete and make the carb up more anabolic.

No ala on low days (only 9 grams of carbs, don't want to deal with it. US AP and P-Slin on carb ups)

I feel no lactic burn doing normal stuff throughout the week (still taking in 2500 cals so I am getting enough nutrients.) If I drop to below or at 2000 calories I won't do the second two days of cardio (would be to afraid of muscle loss.) I love my carbs and my workouts go to crap without them (no matter if I do cardio or not.) I like this diet for the carb ups but in the future will stick to 50-100 grams a day around my workout if I ever do low carb again (my plan is to never really have to cut much and stay at the same bf year round.)

I would suggest that you don't use the AP and P-Slin on your carb ups. In order to reap the benefit of glycogen supercompensation you would want to do the opposite and use AP during the week as it can actually lower blood sugar and induce further ketone production. I think P-slin might be too strong for the week though, but still leave it out of your carb up.

 

[Botch]

Yea thats a CKD (if your carbs are negligible the next few days.) I personally don't do the HI gi carbs on my carb ups because it offers no benefit over low gi for faster replenishment/glycogen storage since you won't be training again that day. Your still in a cal deficit those next few pro/fat days though right?

edit* Ok you said you were doing a CKD. I thought you were talking about the VD.

I used to do just low GI carbs or a mixture and only carb up one day a week but I have recently been following a very militant and strict carb up my results have improved dramatically.
Yes I'm still in a deficit for the few days after the carb up.

 

[bj22]

I would suggest that you don't use the AP and P-Slin on your carb ups. In order to reap the benefit of glycogen supercompensation you would want to do the opposite and use AP during the week as it can actually lower blood sugar and induce further ketone production. I think P-slin might be too strong for the week though, but still leave it out of your carb up.

That is an interesting take on the AP for carb ups. In the AP FAQ in the USP forum, it says AP is great for this purpose and it works to drive carbs into your muscles. Anyone care to shed some light on the truth?

 

[OCCFan023]

I don't like to use AP during the week just for cost effectiveness. I will however use ALA on workout days a few days prior to the carb up. Do you think taking AP/P-Slin use while in a depleted state wouldn't further enhance super compensation because of the lowered initial insulin levels? Granted maybe not with the first meal (since insulin is virtually non existent then) but after wards it has been working well for me.

 

[3clipseGT]

I think using the AP would enhance the fatloss capabilities.

 

[Vitruvian]

It's probably stated above by someone else already..... I didn't read through. A drop in bodyfat would increase your percentage of LBM, but obviously not your true amount of LBM.

 

[Botch]

I don't like to use AP during the week just for cost effectiveness. I will however use ALA on workout days a few days prior to the carb up. Do you think taking AP/P-Slin use while in a depleted state wouldn't further enhance super compensation because of the lowered initial insulin levels? Granted maybe not with the first meal (since insulin is virtually non existent then) but after wards it has been working well for me.

Yes, using it to help deplete would further enhance your rate of supercompensation. Try using AP before a meal on Monday and Tuesday rather than during your carb up (or just stick with the ALA) and leave those out of your carb up and you'll see what I mean. If you don't like it, then by all means put it back in the next weekend, but the way AP works dictates that you're rate of supercompensation will be enhanced at the end of your carb up if you leave it out (during the carb up, of course).

 

[ReaperX]

All this stuff is too tedious.

I'll just stick with ratios.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

All this stuff is too tedious.

I'll just stick with ratios.

LOL, that's why I elected not to respond.

 

[ReaperX]

If I were in college still or had more free time I might entertain such diets, but it is already difficult enough to deal with the adversity of full-time work+grad school and hitting ratios, more or less whatever else people do.

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

TKD's IMHO are both sensible and practical for Endomorphs. Reaper, you just need to give it more than 4 days. 1-2 weeks is where tha body actually adjusts to tha point of providing more energy as you are burning fat for fuel. Until that point, you WILL feel like ****. Stims will help quite a bit.

But if it isn't broke, don't fix it.