For those who are taking creatine..
- Thread starter Flay
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EctoPower
Active member
Muscle pumps are not important, in my opinion. But strength is. Creatine monohydrate is the most proven and effective non-hormonal supplement for strength gains. "Bloat" is almost non-existent, except in a small percentage of users. What most people think is "bloat" is actually intra-muscular water retention, which does happen and is part of the reason for strength gains with CM. You want water retention when taking creatine. It's a good thing. And for most, it's really invisible, except on the scale where you'll see a few extra pounds of water weight. It is HIGHLY unlikely to get a bloated face with creatine monohydrate and it will not increase acne in any way.
Check out Nutraplanet to find cheap and effective CM.
TheNinja
Well-known member
I am noticeably larger and slightly less defined on creatine mono. I tend to retain at least 10lbs of water weight. I have notices with Neovar (which contains CEE) and also in the past with Tricreatine Malate, that I retain less water. The jury is still out for me on which is the most effective for strength gains though. I guess my point is that if you don't want to retrain a bunch of water, then CEE or perhaps Creatine Malate (I have not tried citrate) might be options to look into.
EctoPower
Active member
Wow, 10 pounds is a lot! I'm usually more in the neighborhood of 4 or 5. 10 pounds of water probably would create a smoother look. I feel like if you're trying to gain strength and mass, then a smoother look is not a concern. It's only when you're looking to show off your gains that you really need to have that definition back.
My opinion is that CEE is not effective at all. There are some studies that back this up too.
But everyone has their own opinions on the subject and that's cool.
tattoopierced1
Guest
never had a problem with creatine mono... it is a staple for me.
MuscleGuyinNY
Banned
I've had uncomfortable experiences with Creatine Monohydrate before. It gave me a lot of gas and I felt terribly bloated. But, I've been looking into a particular brand of CM called 'CreaPure.' It's 99% pure and imported from Germany. Their CM is supposed to prevent any bloating, gas, etc. I'd say give that a shot, but definitely try Creatine Ethyl Ester. I've had nothing but great experiences with CEE. I love it. Get yourself some Green Bulge, Ragnarok, or NeoVar.
Aggravated
Board Sponsor
I just don't like the bloating effect. Some do though.
MuscleGuyinNY
Banned
The bloating makes me feel gross. I get miserable. I also hate having to drink more than enough water and pissing an ocean. Those were very low-budget brands of CM that I've tried.
CHA0S
Member
:goodpost::goodpost: couldn't have said that N-E better
Distilled Water
Board Sponsor
I love it in the winter when Im bulking up,lol.
When Im real lean i dont notice it much though just feel it a little in the skin. In the weight room its awsome when lean/cutting. Pumps you up and gives some great strength gain.
Hi, my name is distilled water and I am a creatine mono addict.
EctoPower
Active member
Creapure is the way to go, for sure. I know Optimum Nutrition uses Creapure. Any other brand that says it is "micronized" creatine is the same thing. The idea with micronization is that the smaller granules are absorbed better and cause far less stomach irritation. AST is another company that uses micronized CM.
I think a lot of people mistake the stomach irritation felt with older creatine for "bloating."
I get no such irritation with Creapure.
bound
Active member
Just grab yourself a tub of micronized creatine monoydrate. 500 grams is like 5-8 bucks, and try it out. Mono is a staple for me, has been for years. I've never tried any of the others, only because mono is so cheap. A kilo of mono lasts months, I just can't see spending 20-30 bucks a month on something that may or may not work just a little better. I've never experienced 'bloat' as far as I know. I'm not sure if I'd notice if I did. About the only discomfort I've felt is once in a while(verrrry rarely) is I feel kind of gassy after my post workout shake(Surge, I've just got a ton sitting around. Love the taste, I swear the stuff is addictive.) which I take with about 5 grams. Lasts maybe 20 min. But that probably isn't even from the creatine.
TheNinja
Well-known member
I agree on the "bloating" issue. I have a LOT less stomach problems with micronize or creapure than with the original monohydrate.
MuscleGuyinNY
Banned
CreaPure is very affordable.
bound
Active member
Really? I never really saw any of the CEE's and such outside of those mixes with sugar and flavorings and other stuff added in. Come to think of it, though, did I see some of the new creatines in the bulk section of nutra? Wish they'd get the mono back in stock, seems like it's been out forever.
sogone2day
Well-known member
Anybody use nutrex vitagro CGL? any reviews if you have?
Distilled Water
Board Sponsor
solid product but you can pick up some cheap bulk waxy maize starch and some creatine mono for about 1/3 the price
bound
Active member
Personally, I think it's overrated, as far as mono goes, don't know about the other ones. You're going to be on it for so long that having it build up over the course of two weeks or so, versus doing it in a few days just seems like a waste. The stuff is cheap, though, so it really doesn't matter.
EctoPower
Active member
Search for differerent ways to cycle creatine as well. Some run it for a few weeks, then take a week off. I actually follow AST's recommended 3 days on/3 days off schedule and like it a lot. There's some evidence that suggests running 5g per day dose of CM for a couple months results in receptor burnout. The cycling method helps avoid this.
bound
Active member
Okay, like I keep saying, it's been a long time since I've studied the whole creatine thing. I don't remember hearing of any creatine 'receptors', though. I thought that creatine was absorbed into the cell to be stored and then combined with ATP. Wasn't under the impression that it was a receptor/agonist type relationship?
EctoPower
Active member
It's entirely possible I'm mislabeling what actually happens, but here is where I'm coming from. I'm showing the text from an article on another site that I don't want to link to (not a board sponsor). I'm including the study references at the bottom:
"Achieving a high concentration of creatine within muscle is essential to triggering a powerful anabolic effect at the cellular level. However, it is clear that the traditional dosage pattern fails to maintain high muscle creatine concentrations over a longer period of time (6 to 12 weeks).[1-3]
Excessive loading (the traditional way) may cause creatine saturation outside the cell that prevents effective muscle uptake for weeks or even months! [4]
A small maintenance dose is futile at maintaining high muscle creatine concentrations. Using a small dose after loading ensures that high muscle creatine concentrations disappear within 6 weeks![5]"
1. Volek et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 31: 1147-1156, 1999.
2. Cribb et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 35: S400, A2239, 2003
3. Cribb et al. Presented at The Australian Association of Exercise and Sports Science Conference, April, 2004
4. Guerrero-Ontivers, M.L. and Wallimann, T. Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry. 184: 427-437, 1998.
5. Van Loon et al. Clinical Science 104:153–162. 2003
Aggravated
Board Sponsor
I heard once that it was just a marketing thing to get you to buy more of whatever you were buying. Could be wrong though. I always noticed the effects after a few days without loading.
TheNinja
Well-known member
I heard that too. From my experiences, you will notice the full effect eventually anyway. It just might take a little longer to become fully saturated. I usually do 5-7 days @ 15g spit into 3 doses (certainly not the 25g+ that many claim for loading) then I do 6g split into 2 doses for 2 months. Then I go off for 1-2 months. I've had good luck with this. However it is VERY noticeable that I lose some gains and size when I cycle off. It can be disheartening if you aren't prepared. I might try EctoPower's link to try someting different in the future.
In the meantine I'm running CEE via Neovar.
TripDog
Bananas
Agreed, just dont go bananas with the dosing and bloat is not an issue....
bound
Active member
Okay, since I have no idea which site that's from, what loading pattern ARE they suggesting?
EctoPower
Active member
Check your PM!
Basically it's 3 days of 20g or so in seperate doses (5g or so each), then 3 days of nothing. Rinse and repeat!
KowboysUp
New member
I've been using CM for a long time now, and i've always had this one question:
If you're cutting and don't want to take in sugar PWO, but taking creatine so you should be taking it, would it be ok to just not take that sugar in? I mean the stuff is so cheap, you could just take more or wait longer for the muscles to saturate right?
Basically my question is this: even if you don't take creatine optimally (say in a shake PWO with no sugar to help absorption) will the muscles still saturate eventually?
If you're cutting and don't want to take in sugar PWO, but taking creatine so you should be taking it, would it be ok to just not take that sugar in? I mean the stuff is so cheap, you could just take more or wait longer for the muscles to saturate right?
Basically my question is this: even if you don't take creatine optimally (say in a shake PWO with no sugar to help absorption) will the muscles still saturate eventually?
Behemoth1
Member
I'm pretty sure that all of the products that Optimum Nutrition has creatine in is CreaPure.
SweetLou32937
New member
i use tri-creatine malate at 2g pre-WO, with solid strength gains while cutting, hardly any bloat either.
EctoPower
Active member
It's pretty straight forward. If you weigh somewhere between 160 and 220, 20g should do. More if you're heavier, less if you're lighter.
So, 20g per day in 3 or 4 doses for 3 days. Then 0g for 3 days. Repeat on a never-ending loop.
I lift first thing in the AM, so I do 5g pre-w/o, 5g post w/o, 10g in the evening after work. Play around and see which is most convenient.
Flay
New member
terminator
Member
Here is an interesting tidbit on Creatine Monohydrate loading:
Currently, manufacturer's instructions and athletes' use of Cr follows a dosing regimen of a "loading" phase of 20 g/day (4 × 5 g) for 5 days and a maintenance dose of 3 to 5 g/day. Investigators have found that intramuscular tCr levels increase from 17 to >20% with a dosing regimen of 20 to 30 g for 2 or more days (Harris et al., 1992; Greenhaff et al., 1994; Balsom et al., 1995; Febbraio et al., 1995; Gordon et al., 1995; Hultman et al., 1996). It has also been reported that up to 20% of this increase is due to PCr (Harris et al., 1992; Gordon et al., 1995; Casey et al., 1996; Hultman et al., 1996; Vandenberghe et al., 1997, 1999). However, there does appear to be an upper limit of intramuscular tCr content at ~160 mmol kg1 of DM (Harris et al., 1992; Casey et al., 1996). Similar intramuscular PCr levels from this dosing regiment can be accomplished by taking 3 g/day over 30 days (Hultman et al., 1996). After ~2 days of loading, maximal accumulation of intramuscular Cr occurs and therefore amounts of >20 g/day are unnecessary (Terjung et al., 2000). The maximal accumulation of intramuscular tCr in humans is reflected in the progressive increase in urinary Cr with continuous Cr ingestion (Harris et al., 1992; Vandenberghe et al., 1997; Bermon et al., 1998; Maganaris and Maughan, 1998). Cr levels in humans can remain elevated for up to 1 month post-supplementation (Febbraio et al., 1995; Hultman et al., 1996).
warvictim
Banned
I hate being bloated, i consider being bloated chubby. We are all exercising to look better, not to look chubby and bloated. Pancakes and cakes can give you a bloating effect too. And that's why i don't take creatine, because i consider to be a waste of money something that will make u look chubby and fat
warvictim
warvictim
Distilled Water
Board Sponsor
:think: its not making you look like a fat slob if your already in decent shape. It can add 10-20lbs on lifts non-hormonally and saturate muscle cells to train harder and longer. Thus in the end building more muscle. But to each his own I guess......
EctoPower
Active member
OK, I'll bite. Create a forum poll asking members if, when they are taking creatine monohydrate, they look:
A: No different than when not taking CM
B: Slightly smoother than when not taking CM
C: Chubby and fat
The only people who select "C" are going to be wise-asses who are just clowning around.
terminator
Member
I guess it may help to be a little more controlled and ask if they took only CM or CM with a sugar or what kind. The research that I have read has used CreaPure 99.9% pure German CM.
When I used that brand of Creatine I never felt bloated and had awesome muscle pumps and strength enhancement.
EctoPower
Active member
True enough and that was referenced earlier in this thread. I think the majority of CM on the market these days is CreaPure or some other "micronized" creatine. So that part of the issue is sort of moot because nobody is really using the old creatine anymore.
Big BAMA
Registered User
I make my own creatine. I freeze dry Chuck Norris tears and grind them up.
ShakesAllDay
Well-known member
I have used varying forms of creatine in the past - mono, micronized mono, CEE, with sugar, without sugar, etc.
I'll make a quick subjective account...
creatine mono (w/out sugar) - Gave me the sh!ts 75% of the time, usually within 15 min. of ingestion. Good strength gains, didn't notice any extra sub-q bloat. Slight muscular fullness/softness.
creatine mono (w/ sugar) - Gave me the sh!ts 75% of the time, usually within 15 min. of ingestion. Really good strength gains. Very noticeable bloat, which seemed to be sub-q, not just extra muscle volume. Fat loss was hindered (taking 75g dex + 10g crea. mono. PWO).
creatine mono (micronized w/out sugar) - No sh!ts. No upset stomach or gas. Good strength gains. Fuller/smoother muscles. No sub-q bloat.
creatine ethyl-ester (caps) - I was taking some other stuff (like AAKG, etc.) when taking CEE, so I can only guess its direct effects. Good strength gains. No bloat in the muscles or sub-q. No gas, no upset stomach.
So, after doing all of that over the years, I've decided that 5-7g micronized creatine mono. in a no-carb PWO shake seems to be the best for me, overall. Right now, I'm cutting, so I try to keep carbs out of my shakes (I know the varying thoughts on PWO carbs). When I get back to bulking, I will ad some carbs - dex + malto + WPI + creatine mono micronized.
I'll make a quick subjective account...
creatine mono (w/out sugar) - Gave me the sh!ts 75% of the time, usually within 15 min. of ingestion. Good strength gains, didn't notice any extra sub-q bloat. Slight muscular fullness/softness.
creatine mono (w/ sugar) - Gave me the sh!ts 75% of the time, usually within 15 min. of ingestion. Really good strength gains. Very noticeable bloat, which seemed to be sub-q, not just extra muscle volume. Fat loss was hindered (taking 75g dex + 10g crea. mono. PWO).
creatine mono (micronized w/out sugar) - No sh!ts. No upset stomach or gas. Good strength gains. Fuller/smoother muscles. No sub-q bloat.
creatine ethyl-ester (caps) - I was taking some other stuff (like AAKG, etc.) when taking CEE, so I can only guess its direct effects. Good strength gains. No bloat in the muscles or sub-q. No gas, no upset stomach.
So, after doing all of that over the years, I've decided that 5-7g micronized creatine mono. in a no-carb PWO shake seems to be the best for me, overall. Right now, I'm cutting, so I try to keep carbs out of my shakes (I know the varying thoughts on PWO carbs). When I get back to bulking, I will ad some carbs - dex + malto + WPI + creatine mono micronized.
EctoPower
Active member
Nice comparison.
Aggravated
Board Sponsor
Take another form of creatine besides mono.
I ued to do this too, but my supply ran out. He actually lived in my garage for a short period of time.