Is Caffeine Really Necessary For Weight Loss Supplements? - Article - Let's Discuss
- 01-10-2008, 04:57 PM
Is Caffeine Really Necessary For Weight Loss Supplements? - Article - Let's Discuss
Is caffeine really necessary for weight loss supplements?
With the explosion on the market of 4 hour+ energy shots that contain zero caffeine, I question the value of caffeine in weight loss products and energy pills in general. One major problem is that there are so many sources of caffeine in the diet, including coffee, chocolate, soda pop (diet and regular) and now just about every dietary supplement. Most pre-workout NO products contain some form of caffeine. Many unscrupulous supplement companies are disguising caffeine as “Methyl Xanthines” or simple “Xanthines” as a way to disguise the use of caffeine in their supplement. Things like “Chocamine” ™ and Chocolate extract are primarily made up of caffeine and its derivatives. Finally, herbal extracts like Guarana and certain tea extracts like Mate are used to disguise the caffeine content of dietary supplements.
Picture this, you wake up in the morning and have large coffee at your favorite Charbucks. The Venti has 480mg of caffeine on average and that is NOT using the expresso beans! So, 480mg to start your day is a whopping dose of caffeine. Then let’s say you have a diet soda at 10am and then another 20oz at lunch. That indulgence adds an extra 72mg per serving, so tack on another 144mg to your tally. You decide to hit the gym before your workout and take the typical EXPLODE product with caffeine. These pre-workout supplements have roughly 300mg per serving and often recommend that you take a double serving before working out, so add on another 600mg. Just an average day in the life of a bodybuilder is looking like over a GRAM of caffeine without even thinking about it (1,224mg to be exact). Now, if you add your caffeine based theromogenic on top of it, you could be ingesting another 600-800mg per day (most “stimulant” based thermogenics contain about 200mg of caffeine per serving in one of the forms mentioned above). So, the average bodybuilder is consuming 2000mg of caffeine per day! The recommended level that the Mayo Clinic recommends is two 12oz cans of diet soda per day max or about 90mg. Every day, millions of people take caffeine in one form or another. It can stay in the body for about 10 hours, if you have a fully functioning liver. If you drink alcohol or take steroids or 17aMethyl Pro-steroids, it will stick around even longer. That means the Starbucks™ you had for breakfast is still around at 6pm and if you take something with Guarana, it will hang around even longer.
So, what?!? What is the big deal? Isn’t caffeine the most harmless thing that a bodybuilder can take? Caffeine doesn’t have side effects and it can give you a boost when you are down…right? I need that stimulant to get “going”!
Is caffeine even good in supplements and excercise?
Effects of eight weeks of caffeine supplementation and training on aerobic fitness and body composition. Malek MH, Housh TJ, Coburn JW, Beck TW, Schmidt RJ, Housh DJ, Johnson GO. University of Nebraska-Lincoln
“These findings indicated that chronic use of the caffeine-containing supplement in the present study, in conjunction with aerobic training, provided no ergogenic effects as measured by VO(2)peak and TRE, and the supplement was of no benefit for altering body weight or body composition.”
So, it is more than possible that caffeine does not add to the ergogenic effect in trained athletes and doesn’t help athletes lose weight. How about this study showing the negative effects on creatine supplementation?
Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading.Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P.
This study shows the caffeine reversed the benefit of creatine and muscle strength. Creatine showed an increase in muscle torque of 10-23% in the subjects studied. According to the conclusion: “The data show that Creatine supplementation elevates muscle PhosphoCreatine concentration and markedly improves performance during intermittent exercise. This ergogenic effect, however, is completely eliminated by caffeine intake.” So, here we have clear evidence that caffeine eliminates some of the key benefits of creatine supplementation, so why is it in your NO or Creatine product?
Let’s talk about another big problem with the over use of caffeine…type II diabetes and metabolic syndrome. Why would this matter to the bodybuilder? One big reason! Insulin is the second most important nutrient to the bodybuilder for building muscle and anything that blunts its effect isn’t really a good thing. Caffeine has been proven in many scientific studies to increase the risk of metabolic syndrome and type II diabetes by blunting the effect of insulin in the bloodstream. In fact caffeine can be implicated in making diabetics fat! Reduced insulin sensitivity causes the body to release more insulin (hyper-insulinemia) which reduces the uptake of nutrients in the muscle cells (stay away from caffeine with your workouts) and potentiates the storage of energy as fat! So, in effect this caffeine over consumption might do WAY more harm than good and increase your chances of becoming obese, reducing your muscles ability to and taxing your adrenal system. There are reams of documents on pubmed that show how destructive caffeine is to your ability to metabolize sugar and the reduced effect of insulin in a hyper caffeinated environment. Professional bodybuilders take EXTRA insulin to increase their recovery and size, it is one of the most important nutrient systems that they can use to increase size and recovery. It is second only to anabolic steroids in making the professional bodybuilder ultra big. Why would anyone that wants a better physique take something that blunts the most anabolic hormone in the body next to testosterone? Why take 2,000mg of something that is PROVEN to reduce your recovery and ability to store nutrients? It is insanity, especially when you consider that caffeine has a very dubious effect on its ability to increase weight loss, with very little data showing it to be an effective weight loss aid. Actually, it seems that caffeine barely has a thermogenic effect and there are FAR better ways of getting a mental lift in the gym (although caffeine is very cheap, running about $8 per kilogram, which is why so many companies put it in their supplements to contrast, is about $1500 per kilogram).
Type II Insulin resistance caused by caffeine WILL HAMPER YOUR ABILITY TO GAIN MUSCLE! Period! It is proven in multiple studies: “The present study in mice demonstrates that both models of diabetes impair regenerating muscles as well as uninjured muscles. Regenerating fast muscles are weaker, lighter and slower in diabetic compared with nondiabetic mice.”(-Vignaud, A) Meaning, muscles regenerate more slowly in a insulin resistant environment! How about this study: “In conclusion, individuals with impaired glucose homeostasis have reduced skeletal muscle nNOSmicro protein content.”(–Bradley, SJ)
Insulin resistance is implicated in reduced mitochondria function in the muscle “In conclusion, the current data supports that muscle mitochondrial dysfunction in type 2 diabetes is not an intrinsic defect, but instead a functional defect related to impaired response to insulin.” (Asmann, YW) So, those energy drinks count on the and Sugar for their performance enhancing effect, not the caffeine. That is if you can trust the Mayo Clinic about reduced mitochondrial activity in response to insulin resistance.
According to Duke University, caffeine can also substantially raise your blood pressure, which is implicated in a whole host of diseases and complications. Additionally, high blood pressure has been linked to the worsening of metabolic syndrome, which is the body’s resistance to normal insulin function as described above. It seems that caffeine WORSENS the effect of raising blood pressure which causes damage and further reduces gains. What else is high blood pressure implicated in? According to the Mayo Clinic web site:
“Excessive pressure on the artery walls can damage your vital organs. The higher your blood pressure and the longer it goes uncontrolled, the greater the damage.
Uncontrolled high blood pressure can lead to:
Damage to your arteries. This can result in hardening and thickening of the arteries (atherosclerosis), which can lead to a heart or other complications. An enlarged, bulging blood vessel (aneurysm) also is possible.
Heart failure. To pump blood against the higher pressure in your vessels, your heart muscle thickens. Eventually, the thickened muscle may have a hard time pumping enough blood to meet your body's needs, which can lead to heart failure.
A blocked or ruptured blood vessel in your brain. This can lead to stroke.
Weakened and narrowed blood vessels in your kidneys. This can prevent these organs from functioning normally.
Thickened, narrowed or torn blood vessels in the eyes. This can result in vision loss.
Metabolic syndrome. This syndrome is a cluster of disorders of your body's metabolism — including elevated waist circumference, high triglycerides, low high- lipoprotein (HDL), or "good," cholesterol, high blood pressure and high insulin levels. If you have high blood pressure, you're more likely to have other components of metabolic syndrome. The more components you have, the greater your risk of developing diabetes, heart disease or stroke.
Uncontrolled high blood pressure also may affect your ability to think, remember and learn. Cognitive impairment and dementia are more common in people who have high blood pressure.”
The average bodybuilder doesn’t need higher blood pressure. In fact heavy lifting has been shown to increase blood pressure up to a whopping 250/180 (the average healthy blood pressure is under 120/80), so an unnecessary boost in blood pressure from caffeine. Supplements can certainly use other forms of stimulation to boost the metabolic effect or increase focus and intensity. for example has been shown by Pantox Laboratories in California, to not raise blood pressure at moderate doses and makes an excellent replacement for caffeine in pre-workout nitric oxide drinks and powders to give the focus boosting effect. It also has a very good thermogenic effect without worsening insulin sensitivity. Also, many stimulant manufacturers are using things other than caffeine to provide a boost in energy or even offsetting the dangers of caffeine with natural blood pressure reducing agents like (*Search Hawthorn Berry Stimulants for a list) and natural insulin potentiators like Momordica (*search mormodica stimulants for a list) with their thermogenics. Searching the internet for caffeine free stimulants is a good place to start (*search “caffeine free stimulants”) looking for such alternatives. These items are useful in eliminating the negative effects of caffeine with all of the positive benefits. They are included in many supplements the do not include caffeine. The problem is that most supplements are either stimulants with caffeine or are simply less effective non-stimulant versions, which do not provide the focus and thermogenic effect of stimulants. Considering the amount of caffeine in dietary sources, the average person consumes enough from their standard diet to add any thermogenic effect to a stimulant based fat burner (caffeine does help increase the effect of other fat burners) without over doing it on the caffeine. So, if your stimulant and pre-workout Nitric Oxide supplement contains caffeine, perhaps you should look for alternatives that contain other stimulants like yohimbine. They will give you the same boost in the gym with out the negatives. If you want a little extra caffeine, have a cup of coffee.
Caffeine has also been shown at high doses to increase cholesterol levels (suicide for bodybuilders taking anti-estrogens to boost testosterone or people using anabolic steroids since a reduction in estrogen, even in males can cause altered lipid profiles) without showing much of a weight loss effect. High cholesterol is something that a bodybuilder should take very seriously, since the current class of pro-steroids on the market has a chance to alter lipid profiles greatly.
Caffeine is something that is damaging to the body builder who wants to build the most possible muscle, by reducing the sensitivity to insulin. Insulin is a key hormone in building muscle and recovery and its impairment will certainly hamper growth. Also, caffeine makes bodybuilders more susceptible to the dangers of high blood pressure and altered lipid profiles which can worsen the chances of sudden death when combined with anabolic steroids. Interestingly coffee is somewhat different since it has been discovered that coffee contains chlorogenic acid, which has been shown to increase the effect of insulin and reduce the metabolic syndrome effects of caffeine (studies found that drinking coffee did not have the same negative metabolic insulin reducing effect as standard caffeine supplements from Guarana or Caffeine Anhydrous). So, if you must have your “caffeine boost” then take it from Charbucks or better yet a coffee company that has good coffee and leave the caffeine out of your dietary supplements!
- 01-10-2008, 07:38 PM
Interesting, I never knew most of that. I guess that I will have to get rid of my 200 mg caffeine pills. Good info, and I cant believe that I read all of that, but I am glad that I did.
Maybe that is why when I started taking the caffeine that I have not seen any more strength gains and I am actually more tired most of the time.
More Yohimbine here I come!
- 01-10-2008, 07:50 PM
01-10-2008, 07:51 PM
01-10-2008, 11:47 PM
01-11-2008, 08:37 AM
01-11-2008, 09:04 AM
01-11-2008, 10:51 AM
I wish there were more cutting/energy supps without caffiene - I get enough from coffee to be honest. And I like coffee, I dont like not drinking it so I can use a supp....
01-11-2008, 07:13 PM
I've been competing/dieting for shoots nonstop for the last 6 years and the constant barrage of caffeine from thermogenics,diet soda and coffee has really taken a toll on me. went off it cold turkey 3 months ago and have been taking adrenal regenerating supplements and am slowly but surely starting to feel like i'm back to "normal". the worst part of caffeine for me is it exacerbates my already high anxiety
01-11-2008, 08:11 PM
"Necessary? Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine? No, but I do it anyway because it's sterile and I like the taste."
"I am legally blind and if I can Squat,deadlift and over all get myself to the gym then anyone can get their a$$ in gear and get strong!!" - malleus25
01-11-2008, 08:26 PM
I work out first thing in the morning, and i've gone quite a while now with no caffeine pre-workout. I do love coffee tho.
Poison, I didn't realize you ware a roaster. Pretty sweet. I've pondered starting doing that, but such an initial expense. It would be great to get green kona and personally roast up batches. even if mixed with some arabica to keep cost down
01-11-2008, 08:32 PM
01-11-2008, 08:39 PM
The therapeutic level and toxic level for yohimbine are too close.
You have to be carefull not to take other ingredients with yohimbine because it is also an MAO inhibitor.
I have been searching for an alternative to caffeine as well since I don't want to burn out my adrenal glands any time soon.
01-11-2008, 08:44 PM
geranamine is nice with the addition of a small amount of caffeiene or other nootropics.
01-11-2008, 09:09 PM
I have been touting non-stim fatloss products for years because they are much more flexible and don't have some of the nasty sides associated with stims.
M.Ed. Ex Phys
01-11-2008, 09:17 PM
on the other hand, I would recommend people to try out some straight caffeine caps if they haven't yet. I had used many products with caff in them and drank coffee in the past, but trying stright caff caps gave quite a nice feeling. I was surprised.
01-12-2008, 06:10 AM
Oddly enough, Yohimbine HCL doesn't do anything to me, but I ordered some Yohimbe Powder (3/6%) and it messes me up really bad. Strange eh?
I just had a bad caffeine incident the Thursday. Drank two 44oz diet cokes and then had a 16oz ice coffee. Dude, tension headache for 3 hours...
01-12-2008, 08:52 AM
Very informative article. I've not liked caffeine and supps containing caffeine for a while, as I'm very sensitive to stims (jitters, headaches, anxiety). But now from this article I can find the other smaller ingredients that are really just caffeine hidden. Just another reason behind my dislike of caffeine. Thanks LG.
01-12-2008, 01:01 PM
Is this ingredient approved for supplemental use by the FDA or is it a GRAS ingredient?
Nutraplanet was out or I was going to try some.
01-12-2008, 01:09 PM
I have never used caffeine containing thermogenic stacks. I have always used individual ingredients to better control my ratios.
I have since discontinued buying bulk caffeine because I enjoy my coffee.
I think excessive caffeine is also cause for higher levels of cortisol as well.
The fool says in his heart “There is no God."
01-12-2008, 03:55 PM
01-12-2008, 06:11 PM
In all fairness I had added some 24% cissus into my routine (pre-breakfast and again postWO), but otherwise not much else that could have affected my cortisol levels that much.
02-05-2008, 02:41 PM
has anyone else had kidney pain while taking yohimbine? i took it for a few days maybe 4 & had the worst pain in my left kidney, couldnt sleep last night it was so bad. ive never had kidney issues befor. i am going to the doc today to make sure everything is on the up & up.
02-05-2008, 03:24 PM
02-05-2008, 03:44 PM
So I take it, one cup of coffee a day regarless of time taken
( I don't drink it near my work out) should be fine?
02-05-2008, 03:51 PM
Like LG said, coffee is different from caffeine. Coffee is America's number 1 source of anti-oxidants (which doesn't speak well for America, lol); it prevents onset of diabetes; it retards or prevents Parkinsons; it prevents cavities; and lots more.
Moderation is key, as with most things.
02-05-2008, 04:08 PM
just to stress the part about the moderation...
its important to understand that coffee might be our #1 source of antioxidants in the USA, but this does NOT mean that BEST source.. its actually sad because it shows how over-processed most of our foods are.
coffee is a great 'drug', but you should keep it to a cup or 2 a day. (and by a 'cup', i mean 6oz... not a 32oz big gulp coffee frappo-macho-chino with sprinkles)
i havent had any caffeine in over 45 days and I havent ever felt better, cutting is more effective, workouts are better than ever.
if you knew how much damage 500mgs of caffeine per day can do to your adrenal system... youd avoid it as well
02-05-2008, 04:19 PM
Sure, hence the wisecrack about 'America'. The typical diet is pathetic. But coffee has many benefits, and keep in mind the anti-parkinsons effect may be closely related to the caffeine content. The countries with the highest levels of coffee consumption have the lowest levels of Parkinsons.
Caffeine isn't evil. It's just over-used.
02-05-2008, 08:53 PM
I wouldnt mind seeing smaller amounts in products, Its hard to mix products up.. so now i try buy everything caff free, plus stims dont do jack **** for me.
02-05-2008, 09:21 PM
02-05-2008, 09:30 PM
yohimbine + ephedrine + geranamine + pea/hordenine is an awesome combination with or without caffeine. wish I had sulbutamine to add in.
02-05-2008, 11:31 PM
02-06-2008, 06:17 AM
02-06-2008, 10:15 AM
Good article.... for someone who is extremely sensitive to caffeine (in the sense that it makes me v. tired and twitchy (esp at night) and irritable, migraines.... etc) its becoming increasing difficult to find pre wo/ products or fat burners without the xtreme doses of caffein in. In seems that the "crappier" the product, the more caffeine they put into it to mask the other useless ingredients, so you feel like its giving results...
Yohimbe on the other hand, gives me nothing but an "un-welcomed visitor" in the gym...
Good post/article though....really informative
02-06-2008, 11:21 AM
Yohimbine makes me irritable. I'll have to try the Legal Gear creatine product, Cold Fusion, or whatever it's called.
02-06-2008, 11:27 AM
02-06-2008, 11:52 AM
02-06-2008, 07:38 PM
Well, yohimbine must be well tolerated since I give Cold Fusion to my mom as an anti-aging supplement and my dad as well.
02-06-2008, 07:41 PM
yohimbine hcl vs yohimbe extract makes for a huge difference
02-06-2008, 08:09 PM
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