Very high dose eurycoma (aka lang jax, tongkat ali)

[Neil5585]

Has anyone tried very high doses of eurycoma? I've heard up to 3g, but what about 4, 5, 6g+? I've read it seems to be dose-dependent, but is this tolerable?

 

[Neil5585]

Bumpity....anyone?

 

[terminator]

What benefit are you looking for? Is it for ED?

 

[Neil5585]

Only 8 days of use to boost natural test levels as high as possible. Rat studies seem to suggest it's dose dependent but I'm wondering what peoples' experience is with higher than 3g/day doses are. It would be every day for those 8 days.

 

[terminator]

I would be interested to know as well since I could only find studies on rat's libido with Eurycoma longifolia.

Do you exhibit any side effects at 3g (insomnia, irritability, increase in body temp)?

It would be difficult to tell what the theraputic level for this would be without human clinical trials.

 

[jminis]

I'd be interested in seeing some results from that.

 

[Neil5585]

Maybe I'll just have to be the guinea pig....

 

[John Smeton]

go for it..Interested in results as wekk as I just got done Blue up which has this

 

[E J]

I think it may elevate prolactin, but not sure. Maybe you can stack it with some l-dopa?

 

[blind12]

Has anyone tried very high doses of eurycoma? I've heard up to 3g, but what about 4, 5, 6g+? I've read it seems to be dose-dependent, but is this tolerable?

3 g of what ?
Native medicinal usage is 50 g of root chips or powdered root brewed into tea.
That's equivalent to 1 g of 50:1 extract.
With other extract potencies the amounts will be different.

 

[John Smeton]

Bump is anyone going though with testing this??

 

[chainsaw]

I kind of have a thing for LJ I tried just about every kind out there. The one that is being reffered to is Indonesian Tongkat Ali 50:1 I dosed up to 3600-4000mg a day for a month and loved it, I tried LJ100 and results were not as favorable as the 50:1, but it was more convienet and more cost effective. My biggest mistake was never to get bloodwork, it would have answered alot of question for me. At dose of 50:1 at 4000mg I noticed more aggresiveness in the gym a good strength gain, weight gain I really was too small amount 2-3lbs to just contribute to a product. I never got any signs of gyno but I did look visuably wet. I am using a 100:1 product right now from Genabolix with is called Eurychrome, it is supposed to be better than LJ100 because it protects the key compenents better. It feels good right now I finish week 2 today I am dosing 150mg 2 times a day. I have 50 grams of the stuff so maybe I will get a chance to get bloodwork done. I would love to try LongJax 20:1 for NutraPlanet this speculates it is the most superior form. Maybe someday I will get bloodwork done. For now LJ100 is a good way to go small doses cheap and convienent.

Search on this forum as well as other for LongJack/Tongkat Ali I have posted in all of them some with a lot of research.

 

[Neil5585]

I ordered SciFit's supposedly "pharmaceutical grade" Eurycoma that comes in 750mg tabs. I won't be using it for about a month, though. If this works perhaps I'll look into higher doses, but in the mean time it's not the cheapest supplement so I'm going with normal doses to see if higher doses would even be worth it.

I'll be taking 3g a day, and I plan to chew up the tabs with some oil since I read the active ingredient is lipophyllic. Not sure if that will help, but it can't hurt. I'm thinking along the lines of like the powdered vitamin E isn't absorbed well unless taken with fat since it's fat soluble.

 

[chainsaw]

LJ100 vs. LongJax 20:1

Just something more to consider.

LJ100 vs. LongJax 20:1

LJ100 is a Eurycoma product that is a 100:1 water extract. They recently have standardized their product based on Europeptide. They had a patent application filed on that. I have read carefully the patent application (US 2004/0087493). I am not convinced that the peptide they identified, 36 amino acids, 4.3KD is responsible for the biological activity for the following reason:

A) The only biological test they did in the patent application was using a Fr3 fraction by size-exclusive column. This faction contains many things, among them the 36 amino acids, 4.3KD peptide. Based on my many year’s experience in drug-based screening, unless you purify the peptide or synthesis the peptide and use it for the biological testing, you can not conclude at all that the peptide is responsible for the effect. IN fact, 98% of the cases it is not responsible.

Based on my experience, peptide normally elute at 20-40 mins range. 9 mins elute is too early for peptide, which makes me skeptical.

C) If you look at the HPLC graph on Figure 3 of the patent application, there are many different components there. Unless they specifically tested the peptide (which did not show in the patent), they can not conclude that the peptide is responsible for the biological effect.

Unless they have direct data, Europeptide is misleading to me.

2) Lab Analysis

If they believe that it is the glycoprotein that is responsible, our product has high content of glycoprotein, even at a 20:1 ratio. Here is the result of our LongJax versus LJ 100 done at the same independent lab:

Based on the Glycoprotein level, our product provides 10 fold more value compared to LJ100 since their product is 5 times more concentrated. This is conceivable because optimal extraction concentration will likely retain more useful ingredients.

3) Human Studies:

The optimum test of the biological function is, of course, the effectiveness in human. We have also carried a small human test, and fortunately, used the same method as done by LJ100. Thus it can be used as a comparison.

1) LJ100 study (copied from Website)

Saliva Testosterone Test of 9 Individuals 26-52 years of Age

¢Dosage 2x2(50mg/capsules) morning & evening for 10 days

¢Normal range for athlete 800 = 150ng/dl of blood

Volunteer age pre treatment after treatment %

ng/dl blood ng/dl blood Increase

1 26 860 = 30 1,650 = 50 91.86%

2 28 580 = 30 985 = 35 69.83%

3 35 875 = 40 1, 576 = 60 80.11%

4 24 950 = 45 2,210 = 55 132.63%

5 29 755 = 30 1,345 = 35 78.15%

6 48 650 = 20 875 = 30 34.62%

7 52 450 = 25 765 = 35 70.00%

8 50 585 = 25 875 = 35 49.57%

9 42 350 = 30 480 = 35 37.14%

Data – preliminary data - more work to be carried out

Volunteers 1-5 are athletes - data are an average of 3 different studies at different times

Volunteers 6-9 do not exercise on a regular basis

2) Longjax study

Testosterone Saliva Test

(Dosage 800mg/day for 5 days)

Volunteer Age Pre-treatment After-treatment % increase

(ng/dl) (ng/dl)
__________________________________________________ _______

1 61 49.9 130.9 150%

2 40 147 274 86%

3 25 181 334 85%
__________________________________________________ _______

*Tests were done in the US by medical clinical labs.

*Samples were collected same time every morning.

*Preliminary data

* Volunteers do not exercise on a regular basis.

Notice that in normal individuals, LJ100 at 200mg/day (100:1 extract) increased T on an average 47.83% in four individuals. Longjax, on the other hand, increased T on an average 107% in three individuals at a dosage of 800mg/day (20:1 extract). Thus, LongJax is 2-fold effective in human tests even at a lower dosage as compared to LJ100.

4) Safety Issue:

Longjax has a LD50 of greater than 5g/kg (the highest people normally test). We spent more money to have the test done in Japan to insure quality.

5) Other Quality Advantages of Longjax

A. We set internal quality control standards. We take steps to make sure our quality is consistent. B. We do studies in the US to assure accuracy.
C. LongJaX is reprocessed in the US. As a result, it offers the following three advantages.
a) Free flowing and friendly for manufacturing.
The eurycoma extract tends to be clumpy when stored over a period of time. The capsule may not look the same as the new ones. LongJaX can store much longer without the same issue. Your capsules can maintain its original form over time.

c) The eurycoma extract can have high yeast and mould. The reprocessing process will help control yeast and mould.

d).Our material is made of roots. There are inferior materials on the market that are made of trunk. Such extract may have low potency and high toxic ingredients

 

[CanMan]

Just something more to consider.

LJ100 vs. LongJax 20:1

LJ100 is a Eurycoma product that is a 100:1 water extract. They recently have standardized their product based on Europeptide. They had a patent application filed on that. I have read carefully the patent application (US 2004/0087493). I am not convinced that the peptide they identified, 36 amino acids, 4.3KD is responsible for the biological activity for the following reason:

A) The only biological test they did in the patent application was using a Fr3 fraction by size-exclusive column. This faction contains many things, among them the 36 amino acids, 4.3KD peptide. Based on my many year’s experience in drug-based screening, unless you purify the peptide or synthesis the peptide and use it for the biological testing, you can not conclude at all that the peptide is responsible for the effect. IN fact, 98% of the cases it is not responsible.

Based on my experience, peptide normally elute at 20-40 mins range. 9 mins elute is too early for peptide, which makes me skeptical.

C) If you look at the HPLC graph on Figure 3 of the patent application, there are many different components there. Unless they specifically tested the peptide (which did not show in the patent), they can not conclude that the peptide is responsible for the biological effect.

Unless they have direct data, Europeptide is misleading to me.

2) Lab Analysis

If they believe that it is the glycoprotein that is responsible, our product has high content of glycoprotein, even at a 20:1 ratio. Here is the result of our LongJax versus LJ 100 done at the same independent lab:

Based on the Glycoprotein level, our product provides 10 fold more value compared to LJ100 since their product is 5 times more concentrated. This is conceivable because optimal extraction concentration will likely retain more useful ingredients.

3) Human Studies:

The optimum test of the biological function is, of course, the effectiveness in human. We have also carried a small human test, and fortunately, used the same method as done by LJ100. Thus it can be used as a comparison.

1) LJ100 study (copied from Website)

Saliva Testosterone Test of 9 Individuals 26-52 years of Age

¢Dosage 2x2(50mg/capsules) morning & evening for 10 days

¢Normal range for athlete 800 = 150ng/dl of blood

Volunteer age pre treatment after treatment %

ng/dl blood ng/dl blood Increase

1 26 860 = 30 1,650 = 50 91.86%

2 28 580 = 30 985 = 35 69.83%

3 35 875 = 40 1, 576 = 60 80.11%

4 24 950 = 45 2,210 = 55 132.63%

5 29 755 = 30 1,345 = 35 78.15%

6 48 650 = 20 875 = 30 34.62%

7 52 450 = 25 765 = 35 70.00%

8 50 585 = 25 875 = 35 49.57%

9 42 350 = 30 480 = 35 37.14%

Data – preliminary data - more work to be carried out

Volunteers 1-5 are athletes - data are an average of 3 different studies at different times

Volunteers 6-9 do not exercise on a regular basis

2) Longjax study

Testosterone Saliva Test

(Dosage 800mg/day for 5 days)

Volunteer Age Pre-treatment After-treatment % increase

(ng/dl) (ng/dl)
__________________________________________________ _______

1 61 49.9 130.9 150%

2 40 147 274 86%

3 25 181 334 85%
__________________________________________________ _______

*Tests were done in the US by medical clinical labs.

*Samples were collected same time every morning.

*Preliminary data

* Volunteers do not exercise on a regular basis.

Notice that in normal individuals, LJ100 at 200mg/day (100:1 extract) increased T on an average 47.83% in four individuals. Longjax, on the other hand, increased T on an average 107% in three individuals at a dosage of 800mg/day (20:1 extract). Thus, LongJax is 2-fold effective in human tests even at a lower dosage as compared to LJ100.

4) Safety Issue:

Longjax has a LD50 of greater than 5g/kg (the highest people normally test). We spent more money to have the test done in Japan to insure quality.

5) Other Quality Advantages of Longjax

A. We set internal quality control standards. We take steps to make sure our quality is consistent. B. We do studies in the US to assure accuracy.
C. LongJaX is reprocessed in the US. As a result, it offers the following three advantages.
a) Free flowing and friendly for manufacturing.
The eurycoma extract tends to be clumpy when stored over a period of time. The capsule may not look the same as the new ones. LongJaX can store much longer without the same issue. Your capsules can maintain its original form over time.

c) The eurycoma extract can have high yeast and mould. The reprocessing process will help control yeast and mould.

d).Our material is made of roots. There are inferior materials on the market that are made of trunk. Such extract may have low potency and high toxic ingredients

Chain, I get really huge on this stuff, but puffy huge, including my face ( not kewl with the ladies ) , almost like a panax ginseng puff.... not sure how to manage, so I go off.... this happen to you at all ??? I wouldn't say it's gyno / water retention, just not sure WTF it is..... makes my libidocrazy, tho ( LJ100 )

 

[bearmeat]

Chain, I get really huge on this stuff, but puffy huge, including my face ( not kewl with the ladies ) , almost like a panax ginseng puff.... not sure how to manage, so I go off.... this happen to you at all ??? I wouldn't say it's gyno / water retention, just not sure WTF it is..... makes my libidocrazy, tho ( LJ100 )

If the study is indeed accurate and not biased...then the puffiness may be a result of increased aromatization. Using an AI like androstenetrione/6-OXO would help.

 

[CanMan]

If the study is indeed accurate and not biased...then the puffiness may be a result of increased aromatization. Using an AI like androstenetrione/6-OXO would help.

tks.... I got some 6 OXO too.... apparently, they just made it illegal up here in Canada....

 

[bearmeat]

I just read another thread and apparently the side effects you are experiencing may be from increased prolactin. If this indeed is the case, you would want to use dopaminergics like cabergoline to mitigate the negative side effects.

 

[chainsaw]

tks.... I got some 6 OXO too.... apparently, they just made it illegal up here in Canada....

I thought I stated earlier that I did look wetter, like puffyness, also a little more acne and greasy forehead. Never noticed any gyno though. I would agree an AI would work well with these possibly transdermal formestane.

 

[heebs10]

this is a really noobie question and i feel dumb for asking because it still confuses me but can someone explain how the ratio extract thing to me so i know im right in my thinking. i mean how this stuff is to be interpreted: 20:1, 100:1, 50:1, and LJ100. i would think 100:1 is the best ratio but it seems like that thought is incorrect. anyone please help me understand?

 

[blind12]

I just read another thread and apparently the side effects you are experiencing may be from increased prolactin. If this indeed is the case, you would want to use dopaminergics like cabergoline to mitigate the negative side effects.

Erm.. cabergoline is hard to get and suppresses HGH.
Levodopa is freely available as Mucuna Pruriens, stimulates HGH and still has the dopaminergic sexual effects

But I have not had any side effects from the Indonesian 200:1 or 50:1.

 

[blind12]

this is a really noobie question and i feel dumb for asking because it still confuses me but can someone explain how the ratio extract thing to me so i know im right in my thinking. i mean how this stuff is to be interpreted: 20:1, 100:1, 50:1, and LJ100. i would think 100:1 is the best ratio but it seems like that thought is incorrect. anyone please help me understand?

Concentration ratio is irrelevant, as the active components are unknown and might very well be lost in a "stronger" concentrate.
The root has 2% of soluble material, so 50:1 makes most sense.

 

[heebs10]

Concentration ratio is irrelevant, as the active components are unknown and might very well be lost in a "stronger" concentrate.
The root has 2% of soluble material, so 50:1 makes most sense.

thanks for the response

 

[nightfly71]

I use the Nutraplanet Longjax, personally. I assume thats the same stuff as custom, since it's the same odd spelling, as opposed to just calling it longjack.

I use slightly less than 1/4 teaspoon daily. It's hard to say how effective it is, since I take a few other supps. I know it tastes like absolute ass, though...lol.

I usually chase it immediately w/ diet soda to mask it as much as possible, but it's nasty stuff. anyone else use NP's longjax and notice much?

 

[thundergod]

CHAINSAW--- The formestane is an excellent choice to be sure. I use 125 mg. per day of transdermal form along with my 1500 mgs. of sci-fit eurycoma. It goes great together. The form will keep the bloat down by controlling your estrogen. I agree that longjak just might aromatize the extra test from it.

 

[heebs10]

Erm.. cabergoline is hard to get and suppresses HGH.
Levodopa is freely available as Mucuna Pruriens, stimulates HGH and still has the dopaminergic sexual effects

But I have not had any side effects from the Indonesian 200:1 or 50:1.

levodopa is legal? is it a research chem?

 

[Neil5585]

I'm on day 4 at 4.5g of it. So far I haven't noticed much, although maybe a bit hornier. I'll keep updated.

 

[blind12]

levodopa is legal? is it a research chem?

Herbal levodopa is definitely legal and also more effective than synthetic.

If you want to use it for research instead of just taking it, then well, be my guest

 

[heebs10]

Herbal levodopa is definitely legal and also more effective than synthetic.

If you want to use it for research instead of just taking it, then well, be my guest

i read your original post wrong. i thought you meant you can actually get the synthetic stuff which would be levadopa, the herbal stuff is not actually levadopa, its just mp. but thanks for the reply.

 

[Neil5585]

By the way, I noticed absolutely nothing on even up to 6g a day of the SciFit Eurycoma. Junk.

 

[heebs10]

By the way, I noticed absolutely nothing on even up to 6g a day of the SciFit Eurycoma. Junk.

does not surprise me one bit.

 

[comacho]

Neil,

will you be trying agian with a different brand in the future?

 

[thundergod]

comacho--- I haven't personally gotten much out of eurycoma myself, even at 3 grams a day of sci-fit. I'm thinking like rodja and heebs10, that we might have something worth looking into with using testofen in bulk from BN. It's much cheaper than divanil and says it has about the same results. A 98% increase in free test in only 8-weeks. This was with using only 600 mg. per day. Let's try it out!

 

[blind12]

i read your original post wrong. i thought you meant you can actually get the synthetic stuff which would be levadopa, the herbal stuff is not actually levadopa, its just mp. but thanks for the reply.

I understand that Mucuna extract contains levodopa and is often standardized to a specific levodopa content. And it appears to be more potent, with lesser side-effects than the synthetic levodopa, according to the studies I've read.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

...But I have not had any side effects from the Indonesian 200:1 or 50:1.

Blind12,
what kind of results did you see from the 200:1 extract and how much were you taking?

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

Actually I had heard from the LJ100 people that their extract was the best...even better than the 200:1 extract as they were "sucessful in isolating the active ingredients".

 

[Neil5585]

I'm not going to mess with Eurycoma again until I can find out a source that is definitely a good product and at a reasonable price. The Nutraplanet stuff for example would cost $25 for 10 days worth at 3g/day. At 20:1 I'm not sure what dose would be needed for the effect. There seems there is no consensus on what the best extract is, but the people from Indo were supposed to use 50g of the root, so a 50:1 extract would mean 1g would equal the 50g root dose. A good dose is 1-3x this. If that's true then the 20:1 from NP would be horrifically expensive to use.

Also the Indo people were supposed to boil the root quite extensively, and this has also been used in studies showing its effectiveness. So I'm not sure even how this works with extracts. I've even read that the active is fat soluble, so I'm confused and honestly losing interest in really trying to straighten things out, especially considering the estimated cost for good doses.

 

[chainsaw]

I'm not going to mess with Eurycoma again until I can find out a source that is definitely a good product and at a reasonable price. The Nutraplanet stuff for example would cost $25 for 10 days worth at 3g/day. At 20:1 I'm not sure what dose would be needed for the effect. There seems there is no consensus on what the best extract is, but the people from Indo were supposed to use 50g of the root, so a 50:1 extract would mean 1g would equal the 50g root dose. A good dose is 1-3x this. If that's true then the 20:1 from NP would be horrifically expensive to use.

Also the Indo people were supposed to boil the root quite extensively, and this has also been used in studies showing its effectiveness. So I'm not sure even how this works with extracts. I've even read that the active is fat soluble, so I'm confused and honestly losing interest in really trying to straighten things out, especially considering the estimated cost for good doses.

You only need 800mg a day of LongJax from Nutraplanet, and it is a very good deal. I have an email from the Indonesian Tongkat Ali rep and it explains the differences between all these extracts, and why you need to take some much of the Indonesian kind. That being said I will dig up an answer for you tommorow if possible, but I could have swore I posted this info on this forum a while back. One nice thing was a while ago Dsade said he was working on a special extraction process where he could super concentrate certain herbs, I believe LongJax and HGW were some of them.

 

[blind12]

Blind12,
what kind of results did you see from the 200:1 extract and how much were you taking?

Nothing too obvious. Seemed to work sometimes and sometimes not. Generally libido, strength, recovery and physical energy seemed up. And body smell seemed different.

But like I said, nothing too obvious and sometimes it didn't seem to work at all.

I didn't really measure very exactly. 600 mg-1 g of 200:1 would be a rough guess, but I used a teaspoon.

I've used 50:1 mostly, about 1 g of it twice a day.

I bought the introductory set first and just checked how much a capsule's content would look like on a teaspoon, then used a teaspoon to measure out loose powder.

Oh and since they use water extraction, fat-soluble active components don't sound realistic...

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

Thanks for that info. blind12..if the 200:1 extract only worked sometime than I'd bet that their extraction process is faulty...maybe the LJ100 people who say they have a patented extraction process are on to something...hmm...

 

[blind12]

Thanks for that info. blind12..if the 200:1 extract only worked sometime than I'd bet that their extraction process is faulty...maybe the LJ100 people who say they have a patented extraction process are on to something...hmm...

It could be me, not their process

The lows were often at times when I'd be naturally low - cold, rainy, stressful days.

The Indonesian extraction process is very simple of course, but the one used in posted studies of LJ100 was equally simple. No special conditions to protect the actives, plain water extraction etc.

 

[chainsaw]

It could be me, not their process

The lows were often at times when I'd be naturally low - cold, rainy, stressful days.

The Indonesian extraction process is very simple of course, but the one used in posted studies of LJ100 was equally simple. No special conditions to protect the actives, plain water extraction etc.

I got the extract from Auspure-Genabolix called Eurychrome here is a quote from the email they sent me.

"As to the Longjack,the difference is stability after entering into human digest system,
ordinary Longjack active components get easily destroyed by the stomach and digest system,
however our Longjack active components has been bio-protected as one precusor so until it
get into liver it won't release the bioactive components."

I don't know the exact extract, I would believe it is a 100:1 similar to LJ100 because he told me to dose only at 100mg 3 times per day.

 

[JohnnieFreeze]

good info bruthaz...maybe this company "Auspure-Genabolix" knows something no one else does..

 

[scottyc33]

Has anyone ever seen this:

www(dot)asiatour(dot)com/tongkatalisize.htm

 

[scottyc33]

Effects of Eurycoma longifolia jack on laevator ani muscle in both uncastrated and testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats.

Ang HH, Cheang HS.

School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University Science Malaysia, Minden, 11800, Penang, Malaysia.

It has been reported that Eurycoma longifolia Jack commonly known as Tongkat Ali has gained notoreity as a symbol of man's ego and strength by the Malaysian men because it increases male virility and sexual prowess during sexual activities. As such, the effects of 200, 400 and 800 mg/kg of butanol, methanol, water and chloroform fractions of E. longifolia Jack were studied on the laevator ani muscle in both uncastrated and testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats after dosing them for 12 consecutive weeks. Results showed that 800 mg/kg of butanol, methanol, water and chloroform fractions of E. longifolia Jack significantly increased (p<0.05) the leavator ani muscle to 58.56+/-1.22, 58.23+/-0.31, 60.21 +/-0.86 and 62.35 +/-0.98 mg/100 g body weight, respectively, when compared with the control (untreated) in the uncastrated intact male rats and 49.23+/-0.82, 52.23+/-0.36, 50.21+/-0.66 and 52.35+/-0.58 mg/100 g body weight, respectively, when compared to control (untreated) in the testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats. Hence, the pro-androgenic effect as shown by this study further supported the traditional use of this plant as an aphrodisiac.