Excess BCAAs Counter Productive?????

[TheMouth]

BCAA supplements are almost pointless if you consume a good source of protein. The excess BCAAs are actually counter productive. While leucine is the "signal" amino acid for increases in protein synthesis, taking it with out all of the other essential amino acids will cause a decrease in the intracellular AA pool, reducing protein synthesis.

There is also no evidence that they decrease fatigue or muscle loss during a workout due to protein catabolism.

You are better off eating a whole protein before and after working out than taking BCAAs alone or in combination with proteins.

(see pubmed.com, author Rennie, MJ; Tipton, KD; Borsheim (sp), Wolffe, RR

This is what someone told me.

 

[EasyEJL]

I have wondered about this myself. If the whey I drink has the equivalent of 10g of BCAA, other than speed of ingestion I'm not sure what the difference is in taking bcaa

 

[wrasslin116]

Well people see GREAT gains from mega dosing BCAA's.. ex: 50g per day. But it could possibly be counter productive mega dosing over long periods of time.

 

[TheMouth]

Well people see GREAT gains from mega dosing BCAA's.. ex: 50g per day. But it could possibly be counter productive mega dosing over long periods of time.

So Cycle It?

 

[TheMouth]

More:


A quick review of the literature:

1.) Leucine supplementation alone will increase protein synthesis transiently before the intercellular amino acid pool falls and there are not enough free AA to continue (Kimball).
2.) Leucine added to a full complement of essential AA will increase protein synthesis. This is especially true in older adults following RT (wolffe, RR). However, in young, healthy individuals, increasing luecine does not increase protein synthesis in most studies. There was one study by Koopman that showed that increased leucine can increase muscle protein synthesis after RT. However, he has a more recent paper that does not support this point.
3.) Leucine also turns on the branched chain keto dehydrogenase enzyme, which causes protein breakdown (metabolism of AA to carbohydrate and other substrates to enter the TCA). Too leucine can be counter productive.



The verdict in most experts opinion:

A good protein source is all that is needed before, during, and after exercise to maximize protein synthesis.



Side note, it is actually amazing how little protein (AA) is needed to upregulate protein synthesis. (see Phillips SM, Tipton KD etc.)

 

[VolcomX311]

Leucine seems to have a lot of studies with positive and negative findings, but this is true about a lot of research. Some research reveal positive findings, some re-affirm the positive findings, some contradict with negative findings. I suppose I don't have a founded opinion on mega dosing BCAA's or Leucine, but I tend to lean toward pro leucine supplementation. I have a pile of research supporting Leucine's positive effects on protein synthesis as a stand alone supplement, but leucine has more then just protein synthesis effects, it also has effects on post exercise insulin release and insulin sensitivity. As far as the magic number in dosing, I don't really know. I keep it around 10g in addition to my protein.

 

[wrasslin116]

So Cycle It?

Yeah I'm not sure what the length is but I'd do 1 month high then one month normal ranges.

 

[TheMouth]

Leucine seems to have a lot of studies with positive and negative findings, but this is true about a lot of research. Some research reveal positive findings, some re-affirm the positive findings, some contradict with negative findings. I suppose I don't have a founded opinion on mega dosing BCAA's or Leucine, but I tend to lean toward pro leucine supplementation. I have a pile of research supporting Leucine's positive effects on protein synthesis as a stand alone supplement, but leucine has more then just protein synthesis effects, it also has effects on post exercise insulin release and insulin sensitivity. As far as the magic number in dosing, I don't really know. I keep it around 10g in addition to my protein.

So 6 scoops a day.

 

[nelix]

To much of anything is counter productive.

5g is good, maybe up to 15g post workout, with sugars.

 

[VolcomX311]

So 6 scoops a day.

That depends on the serving size of your particular product. I think my is 5 grams per table spoon if I remember correctly, I'm sure yours is different.

I only take my leucine pre and particularly post workout for the insulin release and insulin sensitivity effect. I take it with my protein/carb post workout shake.

However, lately, because my PWO shake makes me too satiated to eat for hours, so I've just been eating instead of taking a PWO shake, but I still take a pre workout shake with lots of BCAA's/Leucine (5-10g) with my Whey. I'm not saying what I'm doing is the gold standard or anything. Some people go as high as 15-20g.

I like to keep it at 5-10g because one of my professor's did a study on post exercise leucine with 7g pre and 7g post with positive findings. It's not to say results couldn't have been better with higher dosages, but for that particular study, the dosage used was 14 total, 7 pre 7 post, so that's how I gauge myself (for now). I'm not sure how everybody else arrived at their desired dosage, some like much more, some like much less. As far as a gold standard dosage, such as we know 10g is the limit for creatine, I'm not sure leucine is quit there yet research wise.

 

[wrasslin116]

Right now I get around low-mid 20's a day. 11g is from my protein shake post workout, around 9g from my casein then I have whats in the Xtend during my workout.

 

[alwaysgaining]

well youll know when your taking to much cuz youll get the runs
your body can only absorb so much then it gets rid of the excess
i.e. the squrts lol

 

[TheMouth]

Mines 11.5 per 6 scoops.

 

[badfish51581]

I seem to remember reading an article awhile ago that had a different perspective. I'll see if I can dig it up tonight.

It said that BCAA's are most commonly used during a workout and specifically when cutting. The article was supporting this type of use.

The article talked about how various types of training could elicit increased natural GH spikes - heavy weight training, low rest training, etc.

The article's cited a study done that showed that that if there were amino acids present during the GH spike that took place while training, there was considerably elevated fat burning following the spike in GH. While if there were not amino acids present, this effect from the GH spike would almost be completely blunted.

Now, I would agree that any good source of protein would work, but who wants a chicken breast in the middle of a workout. This is were BCAA's come in.

Further more, Leucine is the only Amino that is ketogenic (from what I understand). Meaning that it would make sense that it wouldn't peripherally converted to glucose while you're working out, thus NOT spiking your insulin and halting fat loss.

I could have some stuff wrong in here, but I believe this was the thinking.

So, increased protein synthesis aside...it seems it would be useful.

Thoughts, comments?

Joe

 

[TheMouth]

So if I'm cutting... doing what I am doing now wont kill me =P

 

[kabuki]

i have read both positive and negative studies on BCAA's as well. I lean strongly towards positive as i have had good results.

I take in 80g/day of BCAA's combined with 150-225g of whole food protein. I do not supplement protein.

However when i had my protein intake at 400+g/day (supplmented) I found no benefit to BCAA's at all and discontinued their use.

 

[TheMouth]

i have read both positive and negative studies on BCAA's as well. I lean strongly towards positive as i have had good results.

I take in 80g/day of BCAA's combined with 150-225g of whole food protein. I do not supplement protein.

However when i had my protein intake at 400+g/day (supplmented) I found no benefit to BCAA's at all and discontinued their use.

I supplement Protein and I can barely hit 225. How the hell do you do it in food?

 

[warbird01]

Well people see GREAT gains from mega dosing BCAA's.. ex: 50g per day. But it could possibly be counter productive mega dosing over long periods of time.

i heard u can gain 50 lbs in 8 weeks of mega dosing BCAAs?

 

[kabuki]

I supplement Protein and I can barely hit 225. How the hell do you do it in food?

check my log. i did a detailed writup just yesterday on my diet and supplementation. So far today i've had 6 eggs, high protein bread, 1.5cups cottage cheese, .5 cup nuts, 1.5chicken breast, some stew and broccoli. So i'm well over 100g protein at only 6 hours into the day.

 

[kabuki]

i heard u can gain 50 lbs in 8 weeks of mega dosing BCAAs?

ROFL. is Muscletech selling them now?

 

[TheMouth]

check my log. i did a detailed writup just yesterday on my diet and supplementation. So far today i've had 6 eggs, high protein bread, 1.5cups cottage cheese, .5 cup nuts, 1.5chicken breast, some stew and broccoli. So i'm well over 100g protein at only 6 hours into the day.

Whats your caloric/fat intake looking like?

 

[wrasslin116]

ROFL. is Muscletech selling them now?

Lmao nice answer.

 

[wrasslin116]

i heard u can gain 50 lbs in 8 weeks of mega dosing BCAAs?

Don't think so.. that would be nice tho!

 

[Neil5585]

Poliquin is big on mega dose BCAAs (0.44g/kg bwt). I trust his experience and it has worked very well for me when cutting to prevent muscle loss. Haven't tried it when gaining yet so that will be interesting. 20-40g during a workout definitely helps with the workout and improves recovery, no matter what some study says.

Whole proteins require digestion, and even if you take whey right before a workout it's not going to be completely digested since during a rough workout digestion is put on hold. BCAAs require no digestion.

BCAAs are also hypo-allergenic, something you definitely cannot say about whey protein when used on a regular basis.

 

[warbird01]

Don't think so.. that would be nice tho!

Bb.com joke

 

[wrasslin116]

Bb.com joke

Oh lmao. Those guys are retarded over there.

 

[kabuki]

Whats your caloric/fat intake looking like?

so as not to derail this thread here is a link to the post in my log with all these details and more.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/58778-kabukis-video-log-20.html#post1156384

 

[VolcomX311]

Don't think so.. that would be nice tho!

MuscleTech may beg to differ :study:

 

[The_Reverend]

i heard u can gain 50 lbs in 8 weeks of mega dosing BCAAs?

That's without working out. Imagine if you actually went to the gym! :box: