Abolishing Ageing: How to Live Forever

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    is ALCARA really worth it. I remember it showed very good results in vitro but further studies were not carried out after that, which makes me a bit skeptical about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo250;
    is ALCARA really worth it. I remember it showed very good results in vitro but further studies were not carried out after that, which makes me a bit skeptical about it.
    If you mean ALCAR, then it does in fact deliver results. Due to the dramatic dose-dependent elevation of mitochondrial action, it is usually recommended, though, to take it with alpha lipoic acid, the universal anti-oxidant.
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    actually I meant acetyl-l-carnitine arginate. I've seen some in vitro studies quite a while back but no further studies were conducted.
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    I took a look at that article and it was pretty interesting. Like many others, I take some of those compounds without putting much thought into it, and now I am glad I do. I took a graduate course in Regenerative Biology and Medicine last semester at IU and we actually talked a bit about staying young and some of the problems behind doing so. My professor Dr. David Stocum, is a pioneer in the field of Regenerative Medicine at IU Med. School, and he actually proposed an idea that is being used by a company out of Las Vegas called Syngenics (not sure on spelling). Basically, the company is run by physicians who actually were competitive bodybuilders in their youth who have researched muscle physiology and the body's response to certain hormone treatments as well as strength training. They call for elderly applicants in their program to utilize a Slow Burn technique of lifting while injecting Testosterone and other Hormones such as hGH at a 20 year old's level. Accordingly they are to take a slew of other supplements/antioxidants etc. Apparently this is supposed to lead to a more youthful appearance as well as an increase in overall vitality. The reason for utilizing this Slow Burn philosophy of training was because it leads to a burst of a cellular molecule called MGF or Mechano Growth Factor. According to a study by Goldspan, the intense stress on the muscle leads to a burst of MGF along with other muscular splice variants such as IGF which in turn cause hypertrophy of myofibers and an increase in the activity of Satellite Cells in the muscle. Overall, this leads to increased muscle and a more youthful appearance. Actually, hGH leads to increases in MGF. The research behind the applications used by Syngenics seems sound being that the true reason for a lot of the less desirable effects of aging are due to decreases in hormone levels. Although, the Slow Burn technique is a bit out there. It basically utilizes more of a Powerlifter's philosophy of moving the most amount of weight for 1 rep, yet, at very slow speeds, ie. around 10 seconds up and 10 seconds down. They say to do this for 3 to 6 reps always going to failure. I powerlift myself, but for more than one rep at a time. I would assume applicants in this program would be taking joint medications in order to keep from inflaming the joints too much. I found this philosophy utilized by Syngenics to be interesting, especially since my 70+ year old professor was a big proponent of it. Being that he is older he is very interested in the utilization of Testosterone, hGH and Slow Burn training. If your interested, look into it. It seems plausible to beat the aging process with a bit of chemical help along with training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitedevil74 View Post
    Genes. My girl drinks, smokes, eats McDonalds for almost every meal and is ripped, muscular and healthy as a horse. Her brother looks like a ripped bodybuilder and does not work out nor diet. He eats mostly fast food as well. Genes are by far the most important factor in determining a persons physique/appearance. Even when I was paying close attention to my diet, on a regular exercise and cardio schedule I could not even come close to his level of musculature. Jealous you ask? Very.

    Another example is a guy I play basketball with whose physique I would kill for. One night I asked him if he worked out or dieted and he said no diet but he did do 25 pushups and 50 situps every morning. Life is not fair.
    Looking good on the outside tells little about what is going on inside. The body can handle quite a challenge acutely, but your girl will likely develop problems soon enough (try to get her to understand). Of course epigenetic factors will determine how far we can control gene expressions and this is highly individualistic. So eat as close to natural as possible, exercise, keep stress low, have a family, and you should have quality and quantity in life. I strongly feel that a lot of people are overdoing it on all these substances and are actually doing more harm than good. Much too often we forget the concept of balance, and the little we know about oxidation and reduction (radicals certainly aren't all bad!). And, most are not studied in combination.

    Has everyone forgotten the little problem with resveratrol, it isn't bioavailable in humans up to 5g! Drug companies are developing other compounds, there are already much stronger SIRT1 activators and they will be on the market soon enough.

    Other compounds that extend life in lower forms may not necessarily work in humans. We have different protective mechanisms in some cases (search p53, for an example). One common thing that all of these "super beings" have in common so far, is that they have highly oxidative phenotypes. Bodybuilding obviously is at the other side of the tug o war there.

    If (when) we live forever it will probably be in a new form, I have little doubt that we'll be able to translate consciousness to electronic form soon enough. We'll be part machine either way.

    By the time most of us reach old age, freezing techniques will be even better and we're already starting to develop ways to revive lifeless things (mouse heart).

    Put your resveratrol money in the bank and by the time you are unfrozen you'll have a nice interest sum
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    Put your resveratrol money in the bank and by the time you are unfrozen you'll have a nice interest sum
    Not if your bank account is denominated in dollars.
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    saying resveratrol isn't bioavailable is nice and all, I've noticed distinct significant effects from dosing 2g a day. There is also actual clinical data showing sperm count changes in humans, so i'm not sure how a non-bioavailable product would cause that. Its bioavailability sucks, yes, no question there, but thats not the same as no bioavailability. teflon has no bioavailability
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    ...So eat as close to natural as possible, exercise, keep stress low, have a family, and you should have quality and quantity in life...
    This is sometimes easier said than done

    Quote Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    I strongly feel that a lot of people are overdoing it on all these substances and are actually doing more harm than good...
    This is true in some cases, but definitely not related to the compounds we have discussed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    ...And, most are not studied in combination...
    All the possible and useful combinations would take millennia to be studied together. Some of us do not have that time

    Quote Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    ...Has everyone forgotten the little problem with resveratrol, it isn't bioavailable in humans up to 5g!...
    This is why trans-resveratrol uptake is dramatically improved with simultaneous quercetin supplementation. Not to mention the additional impact of including absorption enhancers such as Bioperine, Naringin, and Dihydroxybergamottin.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    ...By the time most of us reach old age, freezing techniques will be even better and we're already starting to develop ways to revive lifeless things (mouse heart).

    Put your resveratrol money in the bank and by the time you are unfrozen you'll have a nice interest sum
    One risk is that by the time you are unfrozen, a currency change could have been implemented and your "money" in the bank will be a bunch or worthless paper
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post


    This is why trans-resveratrol uptake is dramatically improved with simultaneous quercetin supplementation. Not to mention the additional impact of including absorption enhancers such as Bioperine, Naringin, and Dihydroxybergamottin.
    And what about the consequences of manipulating systems that eliminate toxins? Or the negative properties of the substances themselves? In small amounts in diet they may be generally beneficial, but chronically through supplementation, who knows.

    Hot off the press:

    : Int J Mol Med. 2008 Feb;21(2):223-32.
    Related Articles, Links
    Click here to read
    Aging and anti-aging: Unexpected side effects of everyday medication through sirtuin1 modulation.

    Engel N, Mahlknecht U.

    Department of Hematology/Oncology, University of Heidelberg Medical Center, Im Neuenheimer Feld 410, D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany.

    The sirtuin 1 protein (SIRT1) is a member of the class III NAD+-dependent histone deacetylases, which are also referred to as the 'sirtuins'. The sirtuins and silent information regulator 1 (SIRT1) in particular, are known to play a role in the response to DNA damage, metabolism, longevity and carcinogenesis. SIRT1 regulates different cellular processes such as proliferation, differentiation and apoptosis through deacetylation of important regulatory proteins such as p53, FOXO3a and NFkappaB. A number of different modifiers of SIRT1 expression and activity have been discovered and even food and cosmetic additives (e.g. resveratrol and dihydrocoumarin) have been suggested to either activate or inhibit the activity of human SIRT1. We screened a panel of 18 different drugs which are frequently used in everyday clinical practice with regard to their influence on cell survival and SIRT1 expression in freshly isolated peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) from young and healthy volunteers. In this context, we identified L-thyroxin, insulin and sodium nitroprusside to be potent activators of human SIRT1 expression. In addition, treatment of PBMCs with sodium nitroprusside was associated with a significant cellular lifespan extension, while L-thyroxin and insulin were unable to prolong lifespan, suggesting that isolated upregulation of SIRT1 is in fact insufficient to promote longevity. These findings have an important impact on the long-term use of a number of frequently used clinical agents in the treatment of chronic disease with respect to aging and carcinogenesis.

    PMID: 18204789 [PubMed - in process]
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    And what about the consequences of manipulating systems that eliminate toxins? Or the negative properties of the substances themselves? In small amounts in diet they may be generally beneficial, but chronically through supplementation, who knows.

    Hot off the press:
    I am not looking for a state of zero toxins in my system. Just a level that would not create a dysfunction.
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    There's nothing paradoxical about "the French paradox".

    Animal fats are healthy and very beneficial for the body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Shades View Post
    There's nothing paradoxical about "the French paradox".

    Animal fats are healthy and very beneficial for the body.
    I think the so-called French Paradox" is legitimate. Besides, the statement that animal fats (not including fish oil) are healthy and very beneficial is only true up to a point. After that, they may become counter-productive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    I think the so-called French Paradox" is legitimate. Besides, the statement that animal fats (not including fish oil) are healthy and very beneficial is only true up to a point. After that, they may become counter-productive.
    here is an interesting debate:

    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPyme62niYM"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]


    and the MONICA study

    http://www.ehnheart.org/files/statis...05-092711A.pdf

    The best summaries of the relationship between dietary saturated fat and heart disease are on pages 66 and 28. Page 66 has a map indicating average saturated fat intake in each European country. Page 28 has another map indicating heart disease occurrence in those exact same countries over the exact same period of time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Shades;
    There's nothing paradoxical about "the French paradox".

    Animal fats are healthy and very beneficial for the body.
    Something else on the legitimacy of the "French Paradox". Usually, the French cuisine (rich sauces, gourmet cheeses, and such like) should lead to a high incidence of coronary heart disease. The fact that it doesn't can be traced to the high consumption of resveratrol-containing red wine with their meals. As is well known, the consumption of plant polyphenols (from green tea, red-wine, apple, cocoa, and so on) with meals reduces what is known as post-prandial (after-meal) blood sugar and oxidative stress levels. When we eat, we might end up overeating, leading to post-prandial endothelial disorders that can impact us during most of the day. "Post-prandial oxidative stress" refers to the condition triggered by overloading our blood with fats and sugars for extended periods of time. This produces damage to the arterial wall (also due to high LDL oxidation), and can end up in higher risk of atherosclerosis, obesity, and diabetes.
    Consuming plant polyphenols (in the French case, wine polyphenols) with meals can help prevent these markers of dysfunction, helping the French to stay healthy. Even if one does not have the habit of drinking wine during meals, one can supplement with green tea extract and cocoa polyphenols after meals to obtain the same benefits.
    Last edited by strategicmove; 01-29-2008 at 05:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    Something else on the legitimacy of the "French Paradox". Usually, the French cuisine (rich sauces, gourmet cheeses, and such like) should lead to a high incidence of coronary high disease. The fact that it doesn't can be traced to the high consumption of resveratrol-containing red wine with their meals. As is well known, the consumption of plant polyphenols (from green tea, red-wine, apple, cocoa, and so on) with meals reduces what is known as post-prandial (after-meal) blood sugar and oxidative stress levels. When we eat, we might end up overeating, leading to post-prandial endothelial disorders that can impact us during most of the day. "Post-prandial oxidative stress" refers to the condition triggered by overloading our blood with fats and sugars for extended periods of time. This produces damage to the arterial wall (also due to high LDL oxidation), and can end up in higher risk of atherosclerosis, obesity, and diabetes.
    Consuming plant polyphenols (in the French case, wine polyphenols) with meals can help prevent these markers of dysfunction, helping the French to stay healthy. Even if one does not have the habit of drinking wine during meals, one can supplement with green tea extract and cocoa polyphenols after meals to obtain the same benefits.
    Doesn't this just lead us back to Quercetin (the main representative of the flavonol class, found at high concentrations in onions, apples, red wine, broccoli, tea, and Ginkgo biloba)?

    Or is it resveratrol + a blend of polyphenolic compounds that produce the desired effect?

    See:
    A blend of polyphenols explains the stimulatory effect of red wine on human endothelial NO synthase.
    Nitric Oxide. 2005 Mar;12(2):97-104.

    A high intake of polyphenols is likely to have beneficial effects on the cardiovascular system. Especially red wine is a rich source of polyphenols, and we have previously shown that French red wine upregulates eNOS, a protective enzyme in the cardiovascular system. The current study tested (poly)phenols of red wine for their ability to enhance eNOS expression. Of the polyphenols tested, we found 3,4',5-trihydroxy-trans-stilbene (trans-resveratrol) to be the most efficacious stimulator of eNOS expression (and eNOS transcription), but this compound alone could not explain the total stimulatory effect of red wine. The flavanols catechin and epicatechin, the flavonols fisetin, myricetin, isoquercitrin and hyperoside, the anthocyanins delphinidin, malvidin, and paeonidin, gallic acid, and the hydroxycinnamic acids ferulic acid and sinapinic acid did not change eNOS expression or eNOS promoter activity in any substantial way. The flavonol quercetin inhibited eNOS expression (with no effect on eNOS promoter activity). Cinnamic acid was a rather potent enhancer of eNOS expression, however with an efficacy of only 170%. Surprisingly, it reduced eNOS promoter activity. The anthocyanins cyanidin, the hydroxycinnamic acids p-coumaric acid and caffeic acid, and the phenolic acids benzoic acid and vanillic acid also enhanced eNOS expression moderately (with no effect on eNOS promoter activity). Thus, the increase in eNOS in response to red wine involves several polyphenolic compounds with a major contribution from trans-resveratrol and lesser contributions from cinnamic and hydroxycinnamic acids, cyanidin, and some phenolic acids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Doesn't this just lead us back to Quercetin (the main representative of the flavonol class, found at high concentrations in onions, apples, red wine, broccoli, tea, and Ginkgo biloba)?

    Or is it resveratrol + a blend of polyphenolic compounds that produce the desired effect?...[/B][/FONT][/INDENT]
    I believe a complex of polyphenols biased towards resveratrol would be superior to resveratrol alone. I currently take a combination of EGCG, Grape Seed Extract, and Cocoa Polyphenols twice per day, post-meals. My resveratrol comes from Post Cycle Support that I take daily for its general benefits, not for post-cycle-therapy purposes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post

    This is why trans-resveratrol uptake is dramatically improved with simultaneous quercetin supplementation. Not to mention the additional impact of including absorption enhancers such as Bioperine, Naringin, and Dihydroxybergamottin.

    The major quercetin metabolite in humans inhibits SIRT1 in one cell line. Don't forget that very little of any polyphenol will reach plasma, most to all will exist as conjugates. So most of the quercetin you are taking will exist as metabolites. (unless you have human data that shows it is actually effective?)

    The others probably haven't been studied so who knows the net effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    saying resveratrol isn't bioavailable is nice and all, I've noticed distinct significant effects from dosing 2g a day. There is also actual clinical data showing sperm count changes in humans, so i'm not sure how a non-bioavailable product would cause that. Its bioavailability sucks, yes, no question there, but thats not the same as no bioavailability. teflon has no bioavailability
    What kind of effects, do you notice, from the 2g's of Res?
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjackcat View Post
    What kind of effects, do you notice, from the 2g's of Res?


    The effect of 2g's of res baby!!


    (side note: great discussion guys!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by MashedPotato View Post

    The effect of 2g's of res baby!!


    (side note: great discussion guys!)
    Cool, I could always use more hair! : )
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    The major quercetin metabolite in humans inhibits SIRT1 in one cell line. Don't forget that very little of any polyphenol will reach plasma, most to all will exist as conjugates. So most of the quercetin you are taking will exist as metabolites. (unless you have human data that shows it is actually effective?)

    The others probably haven't been studied so who knows the net effect.
    I found research suggesting that a much larger EGCG dose reaches plasma when taken after an overnight fast. One of the theories is that an acute fast depletes glucuronidation reaction precursors. So perhaps res in the morning before any meals would work.
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    One thing that is over looked is how your mental state can effect your health. There is research that suggests your mind, can change your DNA. The book, Biology of Belief gives a great deal of info on this matter and will change how you look at being healthy.

    If your looking for real world science geek studies on the minds effect on DNA, this book is perfect.
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    stress is going to be a big part in aging and diseases with our age.

    if you want to live longer, i'd look towards releiving stress, possibly mind over matter techniques, as well as diet.

    but you must grow a beard as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeRows View Post
    stress is going to be a big part in aging and diseases with our age.

    if you want to live longer, i'd look towards releiving stress, possibly mind over matter techniques, as well as diet.

    but you must grow a beard as well
    Agree. Stress management is an important part of the equation!
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