[jenab123]

Just a heads up here on something that might be useful. I started a SD cycle a week or so ago. I have done several before, I've always had problems with the severe low back pumps, as well as other areas (like rear delts for some reason). Yes I take taurine and that does not seem to eliminate them, but it does help.

Well unrelated to this SD cycle I was reading up on BA, and decided to get some (NP bulk). It did not arrive until Friday and I did not start taking any until Sat.

I expereinced the SD back pumps same as before when I started up this cycle (20 mg/day). Added the BA, no back pumps. I mean zero. I did heavy squats today which ordinarily would have me cramping up like crazy. No problems whatsoever. Also the standard SD lethargy thing is gone with the BA.

So anyway it may be that taurine isn't the right thing to use here, it is BA, or maybe BA + taurine. Someone with way more biochem than me might be able to explain why.

Anyone else try this?

[Highlanda01602]

It is to my understanding that Beta-Alanine expands the veins for better blood flow, resulting in a reasonable increase in endurance. It sounds that the Beta-Alanine is relaxing the portions of your back that were previously tightened up.

[jenab123]

Yeah that's a good explanation. I have noticed a flushing effect kind of like niacin with the BA, so maybe you are right and increased bloodflow is mitigating the pumps as well.

[jasonschaffin]

I thought back pumps were more of a Kidney thing. Thought I read that from a very smart doc. D i n o i i i

[UNCfan1]

I thought back pumps were more of a Kidney thing. Thought I read that from a very smart doc. D i n o i i i

Thats what I hear from the same very smart Dr. BA is awesome stuff period, alot lot creatine the benefits just keep coming in left and right.

I will def remember this when I get ready for my Real SD run.

[jenab123]

I thought back pumps were more of a Kidney thing. Thought I read that from a very smart doc. D i n o i i i

Thanks for the reference, I looked up his comments over there (DA). Seems like a real smart guy but in this case I'd disagree regarding low back pumps being caused by kidney swelling. Mainly because I'd get similar painful pumps all over my body depending on what types of exercise I was doing. Seemed it was primarily in very short high-strength muscle fibers, like low back, shins, internal shoulder muscles and so forth. Now it may be that SD does mess with the kidneys as well as everything else, but I kinda doubt my kidneys were causing my shins to ache.

[jenab123]

Minor update here. I do a torso-only day after heavy legs, to train core/abs and for recovery on low back. I'll do 3 sets of for example 25 hyperextensions as part of it, easy just to get some blood flowing. On previous SD cycles, no way could I get through one set without that debilitating pump, and the rest of the day was always real hard (weighted twists especially). Knocked out 3 sets of 25 hypers today, easy no problems. Same with the twists.

[harrellt]

Minor update here. I do a torso-only day after heavy legs, to train core/abs and for recovery on low back. I'll do 3 sets of for example 25 hyperextensions as part of it, easy just to get some blood flowing. On previous superdrol cycles, no way could I get through one set without that debilitating pump, and the rest of the day was always real hard (weighted twists especially). Knocked out 3 sets of 25 hypers today, easy no problems. Same with the twists.

Interesting..... Hope this is the answer to back/calf pumps.

[LilPsychotic]

I thought back pumps were more of a Kidney thing. Thought I read that from a very smart doc. D i n o i i i

Can you guys point me to some info on this? I've always had the sneaking suspicion that it might be kidney related, but have tried to convince myself otherwise because I get back pumps from even non-hormnal things like rpm. Any legit info would certainly be grounds for massive reps.

[jenab123]

I just went over to discount anabolics forums and searched on "dinoiii". Not much hard info on the kidney assertion, other than he said the kidneys may swell up and somehow indirectly cause low back discomfort. It may be true in some cases (who knows) but my own experience and that of others is you get more than just back pumps on SD. Furthermore the nature of the non-back pumps seem to be in similar muscle tissue and feels the same (in my case). So I am skeptical of the kidney link, at least a simplistic mechanical one. Perhaps the kidneys produce something toxic that in turn affects short msucle fibers? I have no idea. I do know that whatever it is beta alanine got rid of it.

[beebab]

how much BA did you take per day?

[jenab123]

5 g/day during the load phase. I am going to back that off to 2.5/day afterwards.

[dinoiii]

I just went over to discount anabolics forums and searched on "dinoiii". Not much hard info on the kidney assertion, other than he said the kidneys may swell up and somehow indirectly cause low back discomfort. It may be true in some cases (who knows) but my own experience and that of others is you get more than just back pumps on superdrol. Furthermore the nature of the non-back pumps seem to be in similar muscle tissue and feels the same (in my case). So I am skeptical of the kidney link, at least a simplistic mechanical one. Perhaps the kidneys produce something toxic that in turn affects short msucle fibers? I have no idea. I do know that whatever it is beta alanine got rid of it.

R-i-g-h-t...not much "hard" info with "superdrol" to begin with (hell, ANY PH/PS/DeS for tha matter) which is the issue, though we have lab studies to back up more than you realize. That dinoiii, what a joke.

Nonetheless, the suggestion in question was centered on how taurine would potentially alleviate such stress.

but back to the taurine considerations and PH/PS/anabolic steroids

the coupling of this compound with many of these agents, most notable SD is secondary to a few things...

lets digress for a moment

"BACK PUMPS" are the kidneys until proven otherwise, I am fine to suggest this kidney aggitation of sort being secondary to an increased blood volume secondary to increased Hematocrit and ion depostion. You might ask well, how the hell does this work dinoiii if you think its blood volume and the like...well a great % of your cardiac output need be filtered by the kidneys and there are a slew of smaller vessels within the kidney that are very pertinent (but I will save the anatomy lesson in this one).

Taurine in and of itself aids this scenario by potentiating increases in cell volume via effects in the ion-flux and nutrient gated transport.

BUT HOLD THE PHONE, THAT'S NOT ALL!!!

90% of bb's also have a simple deficiency of taurine to begin with. You may say, so what you're telling me is that correction of the deficiency is going to alleviate my symptoms, right?

NOT EXACTLY!

What I will say is that deficiency of taurine contributes to elevated blood pressure in people with hypertension. And what you get when you go on a PH/PS/AAS cycle is the potential for increased blood pressure. Limited research has found that supplementation with taurine lowers blood pressure in animals and in people. This is hypothesized through a reduction in the hormone epinephrine. Because, yup - you guessed it...increased blood through the tiny blood vessels of the kidney even produces issue with the organ tissue itself.

So, I ingest a couple caps of taurine and I am fine. Well - in a placebo-oriented world ... maybe, but a couple caps has NOT corrected the deficiency I describe above.

Most people don't dose taurine appropriately to begin with, taurine in the average 70kg individual (or 154 pounds for the "metrically"-deficient Americans reading along) should be dosed at 6 GRAMS to see true efficacy. For the average 200 pound bb, this is increased to about 7 GRAMS, higher weight...likely as high as 8 or 9 to accomplish satisfaction of volume of distribution differences.


--------------------




So - let's summarize the dinoiii-model of taurine "Back-Pump" alleviation shall we (in a cliff-notes version):

Pathway #1: PH/PS/AAS --> Inc Blood Volume --> Taurine ingestion --> Ion Flux, Nutrient-Gated Transport (Volume Correction Factor)

Pathway #2: PH/PS/AAS --> Inc Blood Volume --> Inc BP --> Taurine ingestion --> Dec Epinephrine --> Dec BP


End Result of Both = Contribution to Dec "Back Pumps" (aka - kidney pains).

I maintain this position based on so many things that go well beyond the initial "assertions" of this industry in the first place - something I like to call REAL DATA.


As you were...


D_

[dinoiii]

And "calf pumps" have the same relative rationale in increased blood volume btw.


D_

[dinoiii]

Chances are to account for this extra BA, you have upped your water intake...as is true with many "cell-volumizing" products.

We can go through the relative antagonism between taurine/beta-alanine if you'd like, but the rationale is obvious. Again - final answer = kidney!


D_

[jenab123]

And "calf pumps" have the same relative rationale in increased blood volume btw.


D_

Hey Dinoiii,
Thanks for jumping in here and clarifying. I am not understanding this statement WRT the kidney issue. If you postulate a mechanism which causes calf pumps, shin pumps, etc. etc. what is the need to invoke kidneys as somehow preferentially being responsible for the painful back pumps? It seems like an unnecessary element, if one already exists to explain general painful muscle pumps in other tissue. I can see how this same mechanism might also cause kidney pain (as you explained) but that pain (if it exists) is coincident to and not the cause of the low back pain.

Second comment. I am already taking taurine (5 g/d), have always taken it on SD, after my first unpleasant cycle of completely debilitating back pumps. Taurine mitigated the pumps somewhat but never eliminated them. The addition of BA was like night and day, pumps gone and so was the traditional SD lethargy, BTW. Oh and no extra water is being taken, I just dump the BA in my ordinary pre- and post-WO shake. Overall much better experience on SD with BA than ever before. I almost feel "normal".

I have also noticed a large increase in work capacity (say the 8-12 rep range suddenly jumped to 12-16), and a better aerobic capacity, in the sense of not getting as winded even at the now higher reps sets of say squats and DL's.

Finally, I do notice a decrease in BP, or I should say lack of an increase, and also better (lower) resting HR.

[Distilled Water]

There's BA in my pre-workout mix and I slam the Taurine also. I'm on SD and it's kept them at bay. It may be too early to tell (10days) but I'm only feeling a little lethargic. It's like I can feel the back pumps creeping up but then they never get there. I'll keep my fingers crossed on this one. My 1st SD run had me curled in the fetal position for the last few days of the cycle.

[jenab123]

There's BA in my pre-workout mix and I slam the Taurine also. I'm on superdrol and it's kept them at bay. It may be too early to tell (10days) but I'm only feeling a little lethargic. It's like I can feel the back pumps creeping up but then they never get there. I'll keep my fingers crossed on this one. My 1st SD run had me curled in the fetal position for the last few days of the cycle.

Yeah that's exactly it, good description. Pumps are not gone, they just aren't painful anymore. In fact they feel kind of good. And feeling good is not something I ever associated with SD before.