Casein Pre bed no more!
- 10-19-2007, 05:07 PM
Casein Pre bed no more!
Since I have cut out casein before bed I have had much better sleep. Whenever I do take it before bed I have to get up to piss constantly and just can't sleep as well. Even if I wait a full 4 hours after taking it to go to sleep I still have trouble sleeping. I think that the fasting you do when sleeping is much better than drinking a casein drink before bed. You just are not suppose to go to bed with a full stomach. I feel a lot better when I don't drink casein before bed, because of the better sleep I get. Now casein during the day is a different story....I would rather have a casein/whey mix durning the day or straight casein...
- 10-19-2007, 08:43 PM
I'm with you on that one. I used to pound down a protein shake before bed for months and started to lose definition in my midsection. Once I stopped, I noticed I was sleeping better and got back my abs.
- 10-19-2007, 10:23 PM
It makes sense that you would be storing more fat when eating/drinking a shake before bed though. You're going to sleep and although you've been working out, your metabolism is going to slow down a bit. I think if you're trying to grow, IMO it's good to have something small before bed(timing is up to you).
If you're looking to maintain/cut, then you might want to skip that meal so close to bedtime.
It's a tough call though and is definitely something that everyone should play around with to find their sweet spot. To each his own.
10-19-2007, 10:41 PM
Nutritionists consider cow's casein as one of the most allergenic substances in the human diet, perhaps the most. Did you know that pharmaceutical researchers induce a hypercholesterolemia into lab animals (not by giving them eggs or butter), but by feeding them casein and dextrose? Many scientific papers published on this.
Scrap the casein prebed-time, and eat some beef or turkey or chicken. It digests slower, is better for you, and you'll feel much clearer-headed in the morning.
10-19-2007, 10:55 PM
Although I believe you guys with your results, I disagree for the majority of the population. Micellar casein is absorbed slower than any other protien, keeping you in a positive nitrogen balance, and therefore in an anabolic state. I have personally had great results with it (combining it with a little whey) in losing fat while maintaining muscle. Perhaps in individuals it is an allerginic reaction as Pensword eluded to.
Although I must confess, I do have my sleep interupted by having to get up and pee.
10-19-2007, 11:14 PM
I think that your are correct in the sense that you shouldn't be full. I do however feel that if you are trying to gain size, the time you spend sleeping is crutial. If you have no intake before bed your muscles have nothing to draw from for regeneration (not good at all), and the fact that you will be sleeping for hopefully 7-8 hours makes this worse. If you have to scratch your Casein pre bed you should still have something in your stomach. I would recommend eating non-fat cottage cheese. The protein in the cottage cheese is broken down and absorbed very slow. By eating 1-2 servings you will have a decent amount of protein in you for the majority of your sleep, and it is very light (so you won't really feel as if you ate before bed). Just something to think about. Good luck.You just are not suppose to go to bed with a full stomach.
10-20-2007, 11:55 AM
I don't know about having something in your stomach before bed. It is better to go to bed on an empty stomach in my opinion. Nothing to draw on?. I don't know about that either. When you sleep is when you recover. I am not talking about just recovery from exercise. I am talking about recovery from living, from life. Healing woulds, getting better from a sickness. I have always heard people say not to eat before bed. The only time I ever heard of drinking a casein shake before bed was within sports/fitness advertisements for casein protein!. I can see the point of drinking it in between meals and how you are better off because of the slow digestion. When you are asleep though your body needs rest, it doesn't need to be concentrating on digesting your food. When I drink casein before bed, even a full 4 hours before I lay down I get worse sleep than if I don't eat or drink anything. So what would be the point of me continuing to drink casein before bed?....Its not going to be helping me if I get poor sleep/little sleep. I would reap more benefits from getting better sleep. Better sleep = better recovery.....The casein is not helpful one bit, except for between meals or when you have to go out and won't be able to eat for a while, not before bed!.
10-20-2007, 12:13 PM
Cottage cheese still contains a lot of casein.
10-20-2007, 04:08 PM
But if I drink a whey shake like 1 hour before going to bed I have to piss all the time. It has nothing to do with the fluid I drink because if I drink 16 ounces of just water before sleeping I don't have that problem.
10-20-2007, 04:15 PM
If your last meal is say an hour before you hit the sack, then I don't necessarily recommend pounding down another protein shake unless, A. you are hungry, B. You are bulking and trying to gain weight (or on anabolics which would help utilize the protein more efficiently). What I do is phase out starches and wheats\grains etc towards the end of the day and replace them with fiber (greens) and fats. I don't find myself craving carbs either, and in turn I am not bloated or anything when going to bed or upon waking. i happen to time my meals so that one of them falls an about 45 mins before I fall asleep. I usually just drink a whey shake in water with a handful of almonds or some natty pb. One should try to fill and maintain their glycogen stores throughout the beginning and middle of the day, where the carbs are more likely to do this, and if you over eat carbs, they will be used as energy hopefully. At night time they would probably just be stored(...as fat).
Takes some time to see how it will work for your body and your schedule.
Another thing is if you eat a balanced meal on your normal (e.g every three hour schedule) and its about two hours before bed...have some BCAA's or EAA's before right before bed, with maybe some fish oils or fats (cumulatively =many fewer calories.) and if you find yourself hungry when you wake up to urinate (which you should if your drinking enough) then have a little casein with some amino's....Dont forget that you will be eating a balanced carb rich breakfast upon waking to fill up those glycogen stores for the next day. If your stores do happen to deplete whilst sleeping, then you still have a steady stream of amino's (from the BCAA's and the bit of casein if you have that too.) and your body should [i]hopefully[i] resort to stored fat to burn for energy once the blood glucose is too low.
Glutamine=good before bed too
10-20-2007, 11:05 PM
Actually, humans were definitely meant to go to bed after having recently eaten.
10-20-2007, 11:11 PM
10-20-2007, 11:17 PM
What I try to do now is have a shake or some food approx. 3 hours or so before bed.
10-20-2007, 11:28 PM
10-21-2007, 03:06 AM
How about this: Different strokes for different folks? I sometimes have some protein pudding before bed, sometimes I have a bit of low sodium cottage cheese, sometimes I have some broiled chicken or turkey... sometimes I have nothing that's very close to bedtime. I believe that more important than pounding down some macronutrients pre-bed is the emphasis on getting some rapidly absorbed protein (whey isolate and/or hydrosolate) ASAP in the morning. After I take my Drive, RPM, and Relora, 10-15 minutes later I chug a Whey Force (ABB drink with isolate and hydrosolate). I can then rest assured the cortisol is in check from the Relora and aminos from the shake and the nitrogen balance is back in my favor as well. Now I can shower, shave, and make some breakfast without the rush and go to work.
Freedom means nothing here.
10-21-2007, 05:01 AM
this is such a great thread ive always wanted to bring this up
i too sleep like hell with a shake before bed. i piss all night long and i wake up more hungry then ive ever been
toes-on-the-nose.blogspot.com Deployed blogging
10-21-2007, 05:48 AM
10-21-2007, 09:17 AM
10-21-2007, 09:45 AM
I had a problem with having to get up and piss a few times a night when i used to mix my shakes with milk. I've since switched to soy and it no longer happens to me. I just mix it thick with 8 oz of soy and 2 scoops of whey. If I don't eat right before I go to sleep I wake up with horrible hunger pains.
10-21-2007, 05:13 PM
Same experience for me with shake before bed. I would piss all night. I switched to solid food it help with the pissing but the food would jack up my metabolism and make it hard to fall asleep especailly if it is something that is spicy or hard to digest. Once a week I go to bed on an empty stomach and my sleep is great I don't even move. Plus it gives your digestive system a break and you don't wake up with indigestion.
12-19-2010, 07:43 AM
Why do I continually get shredded when prepping for a contest when eating multiple tilapia fillets, cottage cheese, and a handful of sea-salted almonds before bed? Those are much more calorie dense AND calorie plentiful foods, immediately prior to falling asleep.
I think at times, we all misplace our grievances with our lackluster weight and bodyfat loss rates, when it comes down to total caloric intake and type ratios, rather than... a couple scoops of protein before covering up for the evening.
Also, to the OP... since casein causes micro globules to form, slowing the digestion rapidity and letting water pool, it could be causing a slight bloating effect, but as far as a heightened rate of urination, that of course comes down to pre-bed fluid intake.
12-19-2010, 11:38 AM
12-19-2010, 11:50 AM
I have also, of course, consumed Whey Protein before bed, for years on end without lapse, I was only pointing to my specific example, because of course cottage cheese is casein inclusive, and I was still able to steadily shred my physique. Either way, I just saw/see no ultimate outcome that can offer credence to the riddle of casein scoops making you gain adipose tissue, either because of the type of creatine, or the timing of ingestion.
12-19-2010, 12:46 PM
just used your post to bold what I also believe in instead of typing it myself lol
edit: and I don't know what you mean "I see what your trying to get at" lol, I didn't even say anything But anyways, to clarify...so you're not under the wrong impression, I was simply agreeing with you and also noting I too have no problem getting shredded when consuming Casein before bed. I found the thread a bit silly to blame consuming casein before bed linked to fat gain, as casein is highly beneficial before such a fasted period of time. Hence why I said I'm going to bite my tongue on this one as I didn't want to ruffle anyones feathers as it seems there are a few believers in this thread that feel Casein is a bad egg? I just quoted your post to say that for me, basically x2ing what you said. Although I can see how you took it a different way as I really didn't explain that at first
Natural Pro Bodybuilder
12-20-2010, 08:17 AM
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12-20-2010, 08:59 AM
12-20-2010, 12:58 PM
i know i sleep and feel much better without a casein shake before bed. i prefer food 2 hours before bed.
12-20-2010, 01:06 PM
I thought it was just me, i've been drinking casein going on 3 months now, while i do like it and feel it helps with growth alittle, my sleep has suffered, not so much the quality but the amount of time because i'm always waking up going to the bathroom, i tried less water but it still happens, this is interesting
i did start drinking my casein alittle earlier in the night by like an hour and that seems to help alittle, maybe i'll have to drink the casein even earlier to stop the problem
12-20-2010, 03:31 PM
12-20-2010, 03:40 PM
12-20-2010, 05:36 PM
When I took casein before bed I would wake up to piss twice a night, not worth it imo.
12-20-2010, 07:45 PM
12-20-2010, 07:57 PM
12-20-2010, 08:02 PM
12-20-2010, 08:02 PM
however i do piss all the time and all day long at work and especially right after i get home from the gym, i figured it was from a preworkout, plus my liquid during workout and a protein shake after...but who knows
12-20-2010, 08:07 PM
Sometimes, I truly wish I could make myself wake up - have better control over it as I did when I was younger during a nightmare. But anymore they are so realistic, I'm unsure I'm even dreaming. A problem I face and think about from time to time, is knowing how deep my sleep is, if I would hear someone break into my home in time to pull the .45 out.
12-20-2010, 08:24 PM
The protein makes the kidneys work hard to purify the blood from the increased by-products from the high levels of protein. The increase in available protein in the body causes metabolic and body chemistry changes. These changes produce waste products in the form of water, urea and ketones that, over time, build up within the bloodstream. As they increase, the body will attempt to eliminate them by excreting them through urine. Whey would digest and be metabolized more quickly than casein which is why it would result in perhaps peeing one time per night whereas casein might lead to a couple of bathroom visits.
Secondly, the body doesn't shift into a catabolic state as quickly as you seem to think. You can go 18 hours after eating without the body becoming too catabolic. Ultimately, what it comes down to is your macros and total caloric intake on a daily basis, and whether those calories are spread out in precise 3 hour increments or concentrated all in a 4-8 hour period doesn't significantly effect muscle gain. Much of this bro-science is spread by supplement companies who have an interest in us buying more casein, more whey, more protein bars, etc. which on our part largely stems from these misperceptions.
After spending years thinking I need to eat every 3 hours or whatever I switched to an intermittent fasting regimen starting 5 months ago and frankly I love it. I haven't seen any downsides from my switch and one big upside, I don't have to constantly think about what I'm going to eat next. I run a 16 hour fast, 8 hour feed cycle with the 8 hour feed corresponding to my workouts. So far so good and it definitely encourages a leaner physique.
And btw, I have done prebed casein shakes for years without ever giving much thought to peeing in the night or anything else. Because of this thread I'm going to run a month without a prebed shake just to see if I notice any changes.
12-20-2010, 08:48 PM
I would contend that proper nutritional execution is more profound to recovery and subsequent anabolism, than an uninterrupted segment of sleep.
12-20-2010, 09:33 PM
Excess protein intake in general leads to more frequent urination. I'm not against the use of casein or whey protein before bed, but if you already have adequate amino acids available, then it's not necessary to drink a shake before bed.
When aminos are in abundance compared to other substrates, the body will break them down for energy production in place of carbs and fats. When aminos are utilized for energy, the body must strip them of their nitrogen content, which is converted to and excreted as urea. Urea is toxic and must be excreted by the kidneys when blood urea concentrations increase. This results in the urge to urinate.
So there are two possible explanations I can come up with for why pple are experiencing excessive urination during the night. One, your ingesting too much protein for what your body is using for protein synthesis, so the body is breaking the aminos down for energy and possible fat storage, and resulting in increased urea formation. Two, which is unlikely if ur eating casein b4 bed, protein breakdown from your workout is exceeding synthesis, resulting in a negative nitrogen balance, and the build up of Urea.
12-20-2010, 10:12 PM
IMO, fluid intake is cause of frequent urination rather than casein itself. I have had same problem with getting up frequently to take a leak when I drank casein shakes before bed. I think volume of fluid in shake and time it take to consume might have something to do with it.
So I tried eating whole food ( cottage cheese or egg whites) before bed. Worked for me. No frequent(3 to 4 times a night) urination. Just age related one or two leaks a night.
Fasting before bed might be a problem in itself since body becomes catabolic during sleep. So, experiment with other casein products. Try whole food. Fat free cottage cheese or eggs aren't that expensive.
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