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powerfull vs Bulk 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzo

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    Quote Originally Posted by b unit View Post
    i await pats reply on this one, i'm sure he'll have some scientific response on it

    over to u pat

    judging by the photo, patrick looks like he's done quite a bit of practical work with l dopa, can it be smoked? he looks smashed!

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    Anybody have the full text on this?

    1: Exp Clin Endocrinol. 1983 Jan;81(1):41-8.Links
    Effect of l-dopa on growth hormone, glucose, insulin, and cortisol response in obese subjects.Vizner B, Reiner Z, Sekso M.

    Plasma growth hormone, glucose, insulin and cortisol response to oral administration of L-dopa and in insulin-tolerance test were investigated in 18 obese subjects. The results were compared with the results obtained in 10 normal subjects. The obese subjects displayed a lack of growth hormone responsiveness to L-dopa and a diminished GH responsiveness to hypoglycemia. There was no significant difference in glucose response to hypoglycemia in normal and obese subjects. Obese subjects showed normal increments of plasma cortisol following induction of hypoglycemia although there was no consistent cortisol response after L-dopa administration. A blood glucose response following L-dopa administration was seen in most of normal subjects while no increment of blood glucose was noticed in obese subjects.

    PMID: 6343098 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    I'd like to see what that "response" was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
    I'm going to run a series of blood glucose tests on both 1-Carboxy and L-Dopa over the next few days, and compare results.

    The only result that would be useful would be a large discrepancy in outcomes...so I'll be looking for that.

    I'm thinking I'll set it up like this:

    Take morning fasting BG.

    Eat a standard meal (or shake) that will remain constant throughout all tests.

    Take BG at 60, 90, and 120 min post prandial. This is baseline.

    The next day test L-Dopa. Same meal, same time of day.

    60min post, I'll take BG and immediately take 250mg L-Dopa
    Then take 90, 120, 150min readings.

    Next day, test 800mg 1-Carboxy, same fashion

    Next day, 500mg L-Dopa, same

    Next day, 1600mg 1-Carboxy, same

    Patrick, any suggestions?

    Now, this is assuming that both compounds should have some effect on post-prandial BG, which may not even be the case. We'll find out.
    can you run an FTIR of both and scan the curves? I think that would be an faster/easier way of at least saying it isnt L-Dopa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by b unit View Post
    in saying that though sinner, with a guy as dedicated as vince spider ,that's already going on anyway (diet, training, lifestyle, etc.) so don't you think that he's going to notice and effect or not when he's using a particular supplement?

    just throwing it out in the mix
    Think of it like a math equation:

    Results = x + y + z

    Where
    x=placebo effect
    y=effect from user workin' his balls off
    z=effectiveness of the product

    By anecdotal experience, we are able to conclude that the user had a good experience while using the product, but there are too many other factors in the equation to be able to attribute anything quantifiable to the product. We'll never know the value of z because we have no way of finding x or y.
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    Quote Originally Posted by b unit;
    i await pats reply on this one, i'm sure he'll have some scientific response on it

    over to u pat
    Agree completely. The entire discussion was sparked off by Patrick Arnold's statement that L-Dopa had no anabolic properties, direct or indirect, and that plant sterols were basically useless in a general sense.
    Most of the subsequent discussion has centered on subjective interpretations of what he actually might have wanted to say. I am sure he would find time to clarify his thoughts here. And do that better than anyone else. That would help cut a lot of speculation. And advance our objective knowledge a tad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner;
    Think of it like a math equation:

    Results = x + y + z

    Where
    x=placebo effect
    y=effect from user workin' his balls off
    z=effectiveness of the product

    By anecdotal experience, we are able to conclude that the user had a good experience while using the product, but there are too many other factors in the equation to be able to attribute anything quantifiable to the product. We'll never know the value of z because we have no way of finding x or y.
    Agree with your thinking. Yet, you might approach the value of z by doing the following:

    let z = z1 + z2

    then,

    Results = x + y + z1 + z2

    If z1 represents the new supplement you have just added and z2 represents all the other supplements other than the current one, then you can approach a value for z1 by determining the impact on "Results" due to z1, if everything else in the equation remained unchanged. I agree x may also change due to z1, but this change in x will taper off with time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    I don't think Pat is attacking the effectiveness of powerfull, I think he's trying to figure out what the heck it is first.
    i think he did say its ingredients dont build muscle or have a postive effect on muscle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Well L-dopa doesn't build muscle. It's a precursor to dopamine. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter, similar to epinephrine & norepinephrine (they're all catecholamines), which causes a variety of different effects in the body. Any muscle building properties to come from L-Dopa would be from an indirect pathway. It sounds to me that Patrick has not seen anything suggesting a direct correlation between L-Dopa and musclebuilding. He's also not 100% that this is L-Dopa, just very suspicious.

    You'll see on their write-up that it says this product has been shown to increase HGH and testosterone; however, this alone (on a scientific basis) does not necessarily mean that it will build muscle. Believe it or not, there were a lot of scientists back in the day who were convinced that Legit Anabolic Steroids wouldn't work. Obviously, research proved them wrong.
    let PA back his own statements, i doubt he needs your help.

    HGH and testosterone do not build muscle? okay, well it doesnt but it sure does help and play a big part in whether muscle gets built and how much.....so if this product does increase GH production over baseline then that would mean it would help to build muscle among other benefiets, it wouldnt do it directly but indirectly but why would it matter if its overall outcome is aided muscle benefiets?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    let PA back his own statements, i doubt he needs your help.

    HGH and testosterone do not build muscle? okay, well it doesnt but it sure does help and play a big part in whether muscle gets built and how much.....so if this product does increase GH production over baseline then that would mean it would help to build muscle among other benefiets, it wouldnt do it directly but indirectly but why would it matter if its overall outcome is aided muscle benefiets?
    He doesn't need my help. I just get annoyed sometimes because a lot of the things he says are misinterpretted.

    Just because something increases HGH and Test levels doesn't mean it's going build muslce. You also have to take into account how it increases them as well. You're making assumptions as to how this product works. I'm not trying to knock USP or promote PA by saying any of this, but we can't simply take data on hormone levels and say that for sure makes something anabolic. That's not how the scientific method works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post

    Just because something increases HGH and Test levels doesn't mean it's going build muslce. You also have to take into account how it increases them as well. You're making assumptions as to how this product works. I'm not trying to knock USP or promote PA by saying any of this, but we can't simply take data on hormone levels and say that for sure makes something anabolic. That's not how the scientific method works.
    okay i dont understand. if something increases test and or gh that doesnt equate to more help with muscle building? why supplement either then? please explain im confused by what youre saying.
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    If "muscle-building" is synonymous with "anabolic", and if testosterone is one of the most anabolic compounds known to science, and if L-Dopa's anabolic pathway occurs via increased growth hormone (GH) secretion and enhanced endogenous testosterone release via a prolactin-inhibiting mechanism, then it is hard to imagine that L-Dopa has no anabolic properties, direct or indirect. How substantial this anabolic impact actually is, is an entirely different matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    okay i dont understand. if something increases test and or gh that doesnt equate to more help with muscle building? why supplement either then? please explain im confused by what youre saying.
    I'm gonna use Formadrol (by LG Sciences) to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about. One of the ingredients in this product has been shown numerous times to increase LH. We all associate LH with testosterone secretion; however, this particular ingredient has been shown to lower testosterone. Why would this happen? It has to do with how it increases LH in the first place: it's antiandrogenic.

    In the science world, you cannot say that something will build muslce without data explicitly showing that it does in fact build muscle. You can say it increases Test and HGH. Will that build muscle? It might, but it also might not. The transitive property doesn't apply to biochemistry; you can't say since A->B and B->C, then A->C.
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    yup. A->C the way you write it assumes that there was a direct transition and completely leaves out the intermediate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    yup. A->C the way you write it assumes that there was a direct transition and completely leaves out the intermediate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    There's other factors aside from the placebo effect to be taken into account when validating anecdotal experience. Keep in mind that aside from whatever supplements you are taking you are taking steps (diet, training, lifestyle, etc.) to achieve a certain result. Especially with a guy as dedicated as yourself, regardless of whether or not the supplements work, there "ain't nuthin'" getting between you and your goals. You what I mean?

    great marketing can go a long way to generate a strong placebo response. i remember reading about this stuff called hot stuff back in 89-90. it was advertised in more obscure bodybuilding publications first and then got more mainstream over time. it swore to be a steroid equivalent and had everything but the kitchen sink in there. i sent away for it and got it in the mail and opened it up and it was like a unique treasure with its odd orange looking label. i tasted its strange banana flavor and thought to myself that i was drinking a truly unique concoction. i could swear i felt the testosterone running through my veins and i worked out harder and ate better then i could in a long time. i made great progress and swore up and down that hot stuff was amazing stuff

    later i found out it was complete BS

    the same thing happened to me about a year or two later with the first metrx, but to a lesser extent
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    Quote Originally Posted by b unit View Post
    i await pats reply on this one, i'm sure he'll have some scientific response on it

    over to u pat


    titties
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    why dont you test it PA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
    I'm going to run a series of blood glucose tests on both 1-Carboxy and L-Dopa over the next few days, and compare results.

    The only result that would be useful would be a large discrepancy in outcomes...so I'll be looking for that.

    I'm thinking I'll set it up like this:

    Take morning fasting BG.

    Eat a standard meal (or shake) that will remain constant throughout all tests.

    Take BG at 60, 90, and 120 min post prandial. This is baseline.

    The next day test L-Dopa. Same meal, same time of day.

    60min post, I'll take BG and immediately take 250mg L-Dopa
    Then take 90, 120, 150min readings.

    Next day, test 800mg 1-Carboxy, same fashion

    Next day, 500mg L-Dopa, same

    Next day, 1600mg 1-Carboxy, same

    Patrick, any suggestions?

    Now, this is assuming that both compounds should have some effect on post-prandial BG, which may not even be the case. We'll find out.


    sounds like a real ass backwards way to analyze a product. but then again you don't have a lab like i do
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump;
    why dont you test it PA?
    What should he test?
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    can you run an FTIR of both and scan the curves? I think that would be an faster/easier way of at least saying it isnt L-Dopa.

    we have GC/ms but unfortunately amino acids will not come out on a GC.

    we can do a melting point though
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    Agree completely. The entire discussion was sparked off by Patrick Arnold's statement that L-Dopa had no anabolic properties, direct or indirect, and that plant sterols were basically useless in a general sense.
    Most of the subsequent discussion has centered on subjective interpretations of what he actually might have wanted to say. I am sure he would find time to clarify his thoughts here. And do that better than anyone else. That would help cut a lot of speculation. And advance our objective knowledge a tad.

    i don't want to completely trash L-dopa, it has the potential to benefit certain people for a short time at least.

    but its really pretty tame stuff
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    let PA back his own statements, i doubt he needs your help.

    HGH and testosterone do not build muscle? okay, well it doesnt but it sure does help and play a big part in whether muscle gets built and how much.....so if this product does increase GH production over baseline then that would mean it would help to build muscle among other benefiets, it wouldnt do it directly but indirectly but why would it matter if its overall outcome is aided muscle benefiets?

    it does not raise GH or testosterone high enough or for a long enough time to make any discernable difference in your physique

    this is the conclusion i have come to based on my experience and knowledge. And I came to this conclusion long before USP labs ever existed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    great marketing can go a long way to generate a strong placebo response. i remember reading about this stuff called hot stuff back in 89-90. it was advertised in more obscure bodybuilding publications first and then got more mainstream over time. it swore to be a steroid equivalent and had everything but the kitchen sink in there. i sent away for it and got it in the mail and opened it up and it was like a unique treasure with its odd orange looking label. i tasted its strange banana flavor and thought to myself that i was drinking a truly unique concoction. i could swear i felt the testosterone running through my veins and i worked out harder and ate better then i could in a long time. i made great progress and swore up and down that hot stuff was amazing stuff

    later i found out it was complete BS

    the same thing happened to me about a year or two later with the first metrx, but to a lesser extent
    Hot Stuff

    I use to take that as well. Wasn't a good idea before squats though
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    okay i dont understand. if something increases test and or gh that doesnt equate to more help with muscle building? why supplement either then? please explain im confused by what youre saying.

    lots of things raise gh. amino acids, blood pressure medicine, fasting etc. etc.

    these things don't equate into any muscle growth however.

    as far as testosterone goes i did a literature search on l-dopa and testosterone levels and really could not find any specific data at all. I suppose the possibility exists that it could raise it in a very modest fashion like less than 50% and even that will probably only be transient. you are not gonna notice anything really from that
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    why dont you test it PA?
    i really hope that i don't have to get to that point. an answer would be so much more convenient

    and even if i do test it, and come to the conclusion that its the same do you think that is going to end this debate at all?

    no, it will only make the debate more intense and aggravating
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i really hope that i don't have to get to that point. an answer would be so much more convenient

    and even if i do test it, and come to the conclusion that its the same do you think that is going to end this debate at all?

    no, it will only make the debate more intense and aggravating
    an answer would be nice.

    if it is the same maybe people the people that know this wont buy it thinking its something else. I have three bottles i bought for like $10 each so im gonna use it regardless. I did notice a libido boost but that could just be dopamine increase??..
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    an answer would be nice.

    if it is the same maybe people the people that know this wont buy it thinking its something else. I have three bottles i bought for like $10 each so im gonna use it regardless. I did notice a libido boost but that could just be dopamine increase??..

    libido increase is a listed side effect of l-dopa

    yeah it has something to do with dopamine

    cabergoline is a much safer dopaminergic agent that purportedly can raise testosterone and increase libido. you can get that through research chem houses. but once again, don't expect any noticeable anabolic effects
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    libido increase is a listed side effect of l-dopa

    yeah it has something to do with dopamine

    cabergoline is a much safer dopaminergic agent that purportedly can raise testosterone and increase libido. you can get that through research chem houses. but once again, don't expect any noticeable anabolic effects

    I raised the same issue awhile back comparing bromocriptine vs's powerfull.......anyhow it got shot down.
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    PA-


    Change your avatar to the the picture (above) of where you look doped up w/ the hairnet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    PA-


    Change your avatar to the the picture (above) of where you look doped up w/ the hairnet.

    must you torture me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i really hope that i don't have to get to that point. an answer would be so much more convenient

    and even if i do test it, and come to the conclusion that its the same do you think that is going to end this debate at all?

    no, it will only make the debate more intense and aggravating
    I'm debating to release the test on your 50% cissus and with your permission, I will.

    I will try to be civil but PA makes if real hard.

    1-carboxy is our name for our extraction of L-dopa that contains natural decarboxlase inhibitors. Pat are you the only one with access to a lab and chemists? We are working directly with Universities and Biotech firms in India lead by men with Doctorates. It's cool that you sport a BA in chemistry and have alot of on the job experience. But Please stop feeding your ego as the smartest man in the indusrty it's becoming repulsive.

    I'm begining to questions your High and mighty approach to degrading other companies products as worthless.

    ErgoPharm
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    I'm debating to release the test on your 50% cissus and with your permission, I will.

    I will try to be civil but PA makes if real hard.

    1-carboxy is our name for our extraction of L-dopa that contains natural decarboxlase inhibitors. Pat are you the only one with access to a lab and chemists? We are working directly with Universities and Biotech firms in India lead by men with Doctorates. It's cool that you sport a BA in chemistry and have alot of on the job experience. But Please stop feeding your ego as the smartest man in the indusrty it's becoming repulsive.

    I'm begining to questions your High and mighty approach to degrading other companies products as worthless.

    ErgoPharm
    "It doesn't work unless Ergo Makes it"
    nice response
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    sounds like a real ass backwards way to analyze a product. but then again you don't have a lab like i do

    Well, yes Pat, if I had a lab I'm sure I could come up with some more accurate testing methods than this...****!

    Edit: Wow, you can't say dic*? What is this, ****ing church?

    In my kitchen lab, I have access to a glucometer, and...a toaster. I'm already reasonably certain that neither of these compounds can make toast, so I'm going to go with the glucose testing.

    As for USP's comment...interesting. It certainly feels different than L-Dopa + a Decarboxylase inhibitor, which I've used many times.

    And I agree with Patrick on this one, I'd be surprised if L-Dopa + a Decarboxylase inhibitor did much for building muscle. I haven't noticed anything in the past from that combo. Transient spikes in GH/Test certainly don't automatically equate to more muscle/less fat...there's so much more to it than that.

    But, I've never considered taking it for that purpose. I use it for the central dopamine effects on motivation/drive/focus/libido, etc. I bought the 1-Carboxy for the above purposes + enhanced sleep efficiency, which it seems to be doing a great job of. And, at $18 for 100g, its not exactly breaking the bank.

    It seems to me like this product might be mis-marketed...but I'm sure there's more money to be made in selling to people with hopes of building muscle and losing body fat than there is selling the idea of increased motivation and sleep efficiency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    I'm debating to release the test on your 50% cissus and with your permission, I will.

    I will try to be civil but PA makes if real hard.

    1-carboxy is our name for our extraction of L-dopa that contains natural decarboxlase inhibitors. Pat are you the only one with access to a lab and chemists? We are working directly with Universities and Biotech firms in India lead by men with Doctorates. It's cool that you sport a BA in chemistry and have alot of on the job experience. But Please stop feeding your ego as the smartest man in the indusrty it's becoming repulsive.

    I'm begining to questions your High and mighty approach to degrading other companies products as worthless.

    ErgoPharm
    "It doesn't work unless Ergo Makes it"
    Is this not in your write up

    "But, we totally skipped the L-Dopa part and discovered a brand new compound thatís closely related and is readily available for the body to use"


    so at first it was a brand new compound. then i called your ass on it so you switched your story to some crazy extraction technique with natural decarboxylase inhibitors.

    well what are these natural decarboxylase inhibitors?

    who are these universities and biotech firms in india.

    i cannot believe that people here buy your BS. but they do apparently
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    nice response
    open your eyes for christ sake
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    This thread is getting rather explosive. This surely was not originally intended.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    Is this not in your write up

    "But, we totally skipped the L-Dopa part and discovered a brand new compound thatís closely related and is readily available for the body to use"


    so at first it was a brand new compound. then i called your ass on it so you switched your story to some crazy extraction technique with natural decarboxylase inhibitors.

    well what are these natural decarboxylase inhibitors?

    who are these universities and biotech firms in india.

    i cannot believe that people here buy your BS. but they do apparently
    they also claim:

    "this amazing compound also increased Testosterone levels similar to 100mg of exogenous testosterone!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by easymac View Post
    they also claim:

    "this amazing compound also increased Testosterone levels similar to 100mg of exogenous testosterone!"
    People on TRT take over twice that amount. I think it's just a fancy way of saying "it will increase your testosterone levels by 50%". If that would be more quantifiable for ya.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    I'm begining to questions your High and mighty approach to degrading other companies products as worthless.

    ErgoPharm
    "It doesn't work unless Ergo Makes it"



    these statements completely miss the point. rarely do my criticisms of competitors have anything to do with a product "per se". in fact, often the product is something i think is useful and i will say so in my posts alot of times

    examples:

    epistane
    6-bromo
    Jungle Warfare (6-dehydromethyltest)


    with all three products (which have been involved in recent debates of mine) i have gone on the record as saying they are useful ingredients that apparently have ergogenic benefits.

    the REAL POINT of my criticisms jacob is false and misleading claims. that is where i attack competitors, and i attack because it is unfair business practice to lie like that. For years i have taken the high ground in my advertisements and marketing and maintained a very modest and honest approach. I hate watching others make all this money the easy way, the way its always been done in this industry. I hate it so much i wanna puke every time i open up a mag or see some disgusting hype filled thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    People on TRT take over twice that amount. I think it's just a fancy way of saying "it will increase your testosterone levels by 50%". If that would be more quantifiable for ya.
    its a completely useless statement because there is no timeline associated with 100mg

    do they mean 100mg taken in one day versus l-dopa taken that day?

    do they mean the average levels (area under the curve) from 100mg intramuscularly every week versus one week of daily doses of l-dopa?

    just another example of meaningless marketing hyperbole
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