Creatine Ethyl Ester Vs. Creatine Monohydrate

Bishop2009

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I have read that CEE is better than CM because of the different chemical compound. I have done much more research on CM but I have just bought a bottle of CEE (pills)
was it a smart move and does anyone have any recomendations for futher supps? also help explain the differences of the two. :blink:
 

Hyde12

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I think so because I notice no bloating on CEE as it is better absorbed by the body and I get massive bloats on CM. I notice better strength gains with CM + Taurine. I also heard that CEE is uneffected by caffeine and CM is, so CEE would be better PWO if you like you caffeine (and who doesn't).
 
Bishop2009

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I think so because I notice no bloating on CEE as it is better absorbed by the body and I get massive bloats on CM. I notice better strength gains with CM + Taurine. I also heard that CEE is uneffected by caffeine and CM is, so CEE would be better PWO if you like you caffeine (and who doesn't).
alright thanks man.
 
EctoPower

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Kid, you're 16. You don't need creatine yet. Get some whey protein, lift like a madman, and eat your face off (not literally).

In a couple years, feel free to add in creatine monohydrate. By that time CEE won't exist anymore because everyone will have finally realized that it's a fraud and, sensing that they can no longer pimp that BS, companies will discontinue making it.

Those companies will replace it with "New No-bloat Methylated Creati-bol." Feel free to ignore that as well...
 
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thesinner

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Dude, have you tried Methlated Creati-bol? It's amazing! I've literally gained twice as much as you would expect from a Cell-tech ad.
 
EctoPower

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Dude, have you tried Methlated Creati-bol? It's amazing! I've literally gained twice as much as you would expect from a Cell-tech ad.
More than Cell-tech?? No way! I'll need the requisite before and after picture and, if possible, a neat little graph showing how Methylated Creati-bol is absorbed faster.

Be sure to include the disclaimer on the picture that participants have been remunerated... You know, I'll believe it even more if I know the guy in the picture got paid.
 
Bishop2009

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Kid, you're 16. You don't need creatine yet. Get some whey protein, lift like a madman, and eat your face off (not literally).

In a couple years, feel free to add in creatine monohydrate. By that time CEE won't exist anymore because everyone will have finally realized that it's a fraud and, sensing that they can no longer pimp that BS, companies will discontinue making it.

Those companies will replace it with "New No-bloat Methylated Creati-bol." Feel free to ignore that as well...

i know im 16. and i do have whey protein. and i do eat a **** load. and yes i do lift hard. but why do so many of my peers use creatine if there is no need to?
 
EctoPower

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i know im 16. and i do have whey protein. and i do eat a **** load. and yes i do lift hard. but why do so many of my peers use creatine if there is no need to?
Because they don't know what the h*ll they're doing. These are the same kids who are going to buy Havoc because they think it's a test booster. I'll give you credit for at least coming on here and doing some research.

The less supplements you use at a young age, the better. Get the basics down first and go with that for a couple years. It's not that CM would be dangerous for you at age 16, necessarily, just that you should really focus on the other stuff for much longer than most people want to. For instance, do you know what's going to happen and when if you add 200 calories a day? Have you tried different lifting methods or programs? Do you know exactly how your body responds to different versions of the same lifts? Do you know how introducing cardio and/or changing your cardio routine affects your body comp.? Have you been using an established schedule for both eating and training for at least a year? Do you keep a training log and know exactly which exercises get the most gains and how quickly you can increase weight? Do you have goals for each exercise? Do you have your PRs committed to memory? Do you try to break those PRs? Do you know what it feels like to plateau? Do you know when you're overtraining?

If you don't know this stuff and a lot more, then you don't know enough to start throwing supplements at your body. Your buddies will have no clue what changes in their routine actually do because they have not established a baseline. Having that knowledge will serve you well as you start to experiment (and let's face it, that's what it is) with different supplements. Be patient and don't feel like you have to follow all the other kids as they jump off the bridge.
 
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Bishop2009

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Because they don't know what the h*ll they're doing. These are the same kids who are going to buy Havoc because they think it's a test booster. I'll give you credit for at least coming on here and doing some research.

The less supplements you use at a young age, the better. Get the basics down first and go with that for a couple years. It's not that CM would be dangerous for you at age 16, necessarily, just that you should really focus on the other stuff for much longer than most people want to. For instance, do you know what's going to happen and when if you add 200 calories a day? Have you tried different lifting methods or programs? Do you know exactly how your body responds to different versions of the same lifts? Do you know how introducing cardio and/or changing your cardio routine affects your body comp.? Have you been using an established schedule for both eating and training for at least a year? Do you keep a training log and know exactly which exercises get the most gains and how quickly you can increase weight? Do you have goals for each exercise? Do you have your PRs committed to memory? Do you try to break those PRs? Do you know what it feels like to plateau? Do you know when you're overtraining?

If you don't know this stuff and a lot more, then you don't know enough to start throwing supplements at your body. Your buddies will have no clue what changes in their routine actually do because they have not established a baseline. Having that knowledge will serve you well as you start to experiment (and let's face it, that's what it is) with different supplements. Be patient and don't feel like you have to follow all the other kids as they jump off the bridge.
I like the way you think. And I do know some of the stuff that you talked about and I do have a journel and yes I do know my PR's. I know when im overtraining. I'm not very sure about the cardio part but I can try and learn. If you could tell me some more like how to figure all this stuff out i would be in your debt.
 

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You look good bishop. Big arms, shoulder, and wide back for being so young. There will always be nea sayers and people that say do it. Its all gonna be up to you end the end. As long as you dont mess with PH-PS I feel whats it gonna hurt. But up to you...Easier to afford supps too when you live with your parents.
 
Bishop2009

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You look good bishop. Big arms, shoulder, and wide back for being so young. There will always be nea sayers and people that say do it. Its all gonna be up to you end the end. As long as you dont mess with PH-PS I feel whats it gonna hurt. But up to you...Easier to afford supps too when you live with your parents.
what do you mean PH and PS? and thanks. thats an old pic too i need to get some new ones ..
~
 

ReaperX

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Whatever you do get HPLC creatine. That way you know it is pure...and please please please do not buy Cell-Tech aka Self-Induced Type 2 Diabetes-Tech.
 
Bishop2009

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Whatever you do get HPLC creatine. That way you know it is pure...and please please please do not buy Cell-Tech aka Self-Induced Type 2 Diabetes-Tech.
haha too late actually i took it for a week and a half and sold it haha i didnt like it..
 

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The dexatrose/sugar content is ridiculous. It is a massive overkill and completely unnecessary. I tried the fruit punch one for a couple of weeks then I just stopped using it. I think each serving was like 67g of sugar. Like I said, self-induced type 2 diabetes.
 
Bishop2009

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The dexatrose/sugar content is ridiculous. It is a massive overkill and completely unnecessary. I tried the fruit punch one for a couple of weeks then I just stopped using it. I think each serving was like 67g of sugar. Like I said, self-induced type 2 diabetes.
haha o yea for sure man so what supps would you recommend?
 
fritzer

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haha though i agree with reapers comments, utilizing simple sugars like dextrose around a workout can actually increase muscle cell receptors to insulin... have a study i will look for and post...
 

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The research shows that CEE is very fast absorbing, while CM is much slower absorbing. We think it's best to stack them.

You'll be able to get both in SyntheSIZE final in a week or two.
 
Bishop2009

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The research shows that CEE is very fast absorbing, while CM is much slower absorbing. We think it's best to stack them.

You'll be able to get both in SyntheSIZE final in a week or two.
well i dunno if i want to take any creatine cuz last time i took it i got bloated.... (cell tech)
 

ReaperX

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Just regular micronized creatine monohydrate and IDS's waxymaize afterwards. I suppose what your 'supposed' to do and what I actually do are 2 different things.

I just take microcreatine straight up in water and drink something to clear the taste of my mouth. I don't use ALA or any of that stuff to act like insulin and 'push it into my muscles'. It'll get there by itself eventually anyway.

I also know that my glycogen stores have been depleted after intense training, but I don't take in carbs to fill them up afterwards. I just drink a protein shake and leave it at that. Not taking in carbs after working out isn't going to seriously compromise anything.

You need to be a smart consumer, or else you'll wind up getting a bunch of supplements you don't really need and wasting a lot of money.
 
fritzer

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oh my freakin gosh. you gotta be kidding me :frustrate
this crap again about CEE vs. Monohydrate... ARGH I am gonna repost what i did on another forum because it helped a lot of people, and i seriously seriously hate seeing people waste their cash on crap that doesn't work. I work in the fitness indistry right now while i am at school and it is ridiculous... i have yet to see someone who is huuuuge and cut up and know what they are doing come and ask for something with CEE :)


''Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, [email protected]

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.''
 
Bishop2009

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Just regular micronized creatine monohydrate and IDS's waxymaize afterwards. I suppose what your 'supposed' to do and what I actually do are 2 different things.

I just take microcreatine straight up in water and drink something to clear the taste of my mouth. I don't use ALA or any of that stuff to act like insulin and 'push it into my muscles'. It'll get there by itself eventually anyway.

I also know that my glycogen stores have been depleted after intense training, but I don't take in carbs to fill them up afterwards. I just drink a protein shake and leave it at that. Not taking in carbs after working out isn't going to seriously compromise anything.
hmmmm really good info thanks i might have to try your approach.
 
fritzer

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you dont bloat on CEE because it doesnt work. How the hell are people still on the fence about this crap. I am gonna bust this out!

1) Firstly, there is no need to “attach” an ester group to the creatine molecule. Nothing suggests that this attachment will make creatine any more bioavailable. Some marketers claim that this attachment prevents degradation by the liver. Creatine is actually synthesized in the liver

2) Secondly, the ester attachment allegedly, enables this form of creatine to permeate the muscle cell membrane (outershell). Thus, more creatine can enter muscle cells. This is a straight out lie. The only way creatine and other amino acid compounds enter cells is via transporters. Yah, the creatine transporters for CREATINE MADE IN THE BODY NOT CREATINE ETHYL ESTER


3) How naive are you people?? These companies claim 400x more absorption, faster absorption, etc over Creatine Monohydrate, THESE are specific claims, claims that need to be backed by science... ask one of these companies to show you a study not done by them and a few of their bodybuilders... NOTHING... "but but jay cutler says...." screw off

4) You want to talk about CEE, hey guess what. Clayton south wrote an article. In the first line he lists 9 references dealing with Creatine monohydrate. Then uses them to back up CEE... it is douche bags like this that gets everyone confused...

If anyone on this board can get me a SCIENTIFIC STUDY done by researchers that is controlled, look on academic search premier and pubmed, etc. Then i may just change my mind... but guess what i already looked 2 years ago, there is nothing and will never be anything proving CEE is superior because it is creatinine in a bottle

I use creatine monohydrate 25g a day for 3 days then off for three and repeat over and over. I gained 20lbs in 2 months when i started this. I tried CEE and lost strength weekly (dymatize xpand)...

there is research backing up what i do (25g a day for 3 days/ off 3 days).. a scientific study was with a 2week loading phase then 8 weeks 3-5g maintenance dose... after 8 weeks creatine levels were lower than before the men started the trial!!

Achieving a high concentration of creatine within muscle is essential to triggering a powerful anabolic effect at the cellular level. However, it is clear that the traditional dosage pattern fails to maintain high muscle creatine concentrations over a longer period of time (6 to 12 weeks).

1. Volek et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 31: 1147-1156, 1999.

2. Cribb et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 35: S400, A2239, 2003

3. Cribb et al. Presented at The Australian Association of Exercise and Sports Science Conference, April, 2004

Excessive loading (the traditional way) may cause creatine saturation outside the cell that prevents effective muscle uptake for weeks or even months! [4]

4. Guerrero-Ontivers, M.L. and Wallimann, T. Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry. 184: 427-437, 1998.

A small maintenance dose is futile at maintaining high muscle creatine concentrations. Using a small dose after loading ensures that high muscle creatine concentrations disappear within 6 weeks![5]

5. Van Loon et al. Clinical Science 104:153?162. 2003
 
Bishop2009

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oh my freakin gosh. you gotta be kidding me :frustrate
this crap again about CEE vs. Monohydrate... ARGH

''Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, [email protected]

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.''

------------------------------------------------------------------

''Kre-alkalyn® supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. [email protected]

All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn® (KA) a “Buffered” creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.''
hmmm thanks and sorry for bringing up the CEE and CM discussion again... you know you didnt have to come and post but i thank you for doing so.
 
Bishop2009

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you dont bloat on CEE because it doesnt work. How the hell are people still on the fence about this crap. I am gonna bust this out!

1) Firstly, there is no need to “attach” an ester group to the creatine molecule. Nothing suggests that this attachment will make creatine any more bioavailable. Some marketers claim that this attachment prevents degradation by the liver. Creatine is actually synthesized in the liver, morons.

2) Secondly, the ester attachment allegedly, enables this form of creatine to permeate the muscle cell membrane (outershell). Thus, more creatine can enter muscle cells. This is a straight out lie. The only way creatine and other amino acid compounds enter cells is via transporters. Yah, the creatine transporters for CREATINE MADE IN THE BODY NOT CREATINE ETHYL ESTER... morons


3) How naive are you people?? These companies claim 400x more absorption, faster absorption, etc over Creatine Monohydrate, THESE are specific claims, claims that need to be backed by science... ask one of these companies to show you a study not done by them and a few of their bodybuilders... NOTHING... "but but jay cutler says...." screw off

4) You want to talk about CEE, hey guess what. Clayton south wrote an article. In the first line he lists 9 references dealing with Creatine monohydrate. Then uses them to back up CEE... it is douche bags like this that gets everyone confused...

If anyone on this board can get me a SCIENTIFIC STUDY done by researchers that is controlled, look on academic search premier and pubmed, etc. Then i may just change my mind... but guess what i already looked 2 years ago, there is nothing and will never be anything proving CEE is superior because it is creatinine in a bottle

I use creatine monohydrate 25g a day for 3 days then off for three and repeat over and over. I gained 20lbs in 2 months when i started this. I tried CEE and lost strength weekly (dymatize xpand)...

there is research backing up what i do (25g a day for 3 days/ off 3 days).. a scientific study was with a 2week loading phase then 8 weeks 3-5g maintenance dose... after 8 weeks creatine levels were lower than before the men started the trial!!

Achieving a high concentration of creatine within muscle is essential to triggering a powerful anabolic effect at the cellular level. However, it is clear that the traditional dosage pattern fails to maintain high muscle creatine concentrations over a longer period of time (6 to 12 weeks).

1. Volek et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 31: 1147-1156, 1999.

2. Cribb et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 35: S400, A2239, 2003

3. Cribb et al. Presented at The Australian Association of Exercise and Sports Science Conference, April, 2004

Excessive loading (the traditional way) may cause creatine saturation outside the cell that prevents effective muscle uptake for weeks or even months! [4]

4. Guerrero-Ontivers, M.L. and Wallimann, T. Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry. 184: 427-437, 1998.

A small maintenance dose is futile at maintaining high muscle creatine concentrations. Using a small dose after loading ensures that high muscle creatine concentrations disappear within 6 weeks![5]

5. Van Loon et al. Clinical Science 104:153?162. 2003
i never bloated while on CEE it was on CM
 
fritzer

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my pleasure if i can get even one person to step out of the dark side :) it is really disgusting how these reps come in and try to persuade me about absolute junk, take me out to lunch to sell their trash products and they dont even know any research that has ever been done. I try to give everyone my honest opinion on what i use and what works... and the last thing i want is some kid to spen $70 on a CEE product when they could be doing better off of a $10 jug of CM :)

yah bishop i understand you never bloated on CEE, and pushing water into muscle cells "bloating" causes large increases in strength. and also ofcourse...... creatinine doesnt make you bloat. there was a couple people on this forum who had serious kidney disorder when on CEE i wish they would speak up. Another repm i want to say Grunt76 but i may be wrong took blood tests, his kidney on CEE was huuuuuuuuuge when he went off it went back to normal. When on CM it was also normal...
 
Bishop2009

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my pleasure if i can get even one person to step out of the dark side :) it is really disgusting how these reps come in and try to persuade me about absolute junk, take me out to lunch to sell their trash products and they dont even know any research that has ever been done. I try to give everyone my honest opinion on what i use and what works... and the last thing i want is some kid to spen $70 on a CEE product when they could be doing better off of a $10 jug of CM :)
thanks really thanks.... its hard to tell fact from fiction these days i mean ive done research and its hard to tell from even that because so many people have different oppinions...
 
fritzer

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but some people swear by CEE, who am i to tell them No. If you love it and must use it, then so be it! Do what works, but just be safe and careful over your precious kidneys
 
Bishop2009

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what do you think about creakic my friend is taking it and he says its amazing....
 
Bishop2009

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but some people swear by CEE, who am i to tell them No. If you love it and must use it, then so be it! Do what works, but just be safe and careful over your precious kidneys
yea for sure thats why i wanna be careful cuz uhh well duh you need kidneys haha.
 
fritzer

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yah, creakic is a weird one. I am hesitant because i had amazing results with my 3on/3off CM split. the creakic is definitly overpriced, but i have a lot of people who like it and just as many who will never buy it again... so its a 50/50.... and NO studies on that one at all. So i guess that would be a at your own risk and if you feel it works kinda thing... if your friend likes it and no kidney discomfort then maybe it just is good!! from its formula it does not seem to be able to turn toxic but i could be wrong...

But i have to rely on my personal motto "if it says muscletech on the bottle there is crap inside" haha
 
Bishop2009

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yah, creakic is a weird one. I am hesitant because i had amazing results with my 3on/3off CM split. the creakic is definitly overpriced, but i have a lot of people who like it and just as many who will never buy it again... so its a 50/50.... and NO studies on that one at all. So i guess that would be a at your own risk and if you feel it works kinda thing... if your friend likes it and no kidney discomfort then maybe it just is good!! from its formula it does not seem to be able to turn toxic but i could be wrong...

But i have to rely on my personal motto "if it says muscletech on the bottle there is crap inside" haha
haha i like your motto
 

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fritzer already made his point. There are TONS of studies to back up CM. Why reinvent the wheel ? Monohydrate is non-toxic and it works. There is nothing further to discuss about it.

Yeah I used CEE too. That's precious money I'll never get back.

Don't buy Muscle-Tech. If you buy Muscle-Tech you might as well support the terrorists while your at it.
 
Bishop2009

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fritzer already made his point. There are TONS of studies to back up CM. Why reinvent the wheel ? Monohydrate is non-toxic and it works. There is nothing further to discuss about it.

Yeah I used CEE too. That's precious money I'll never get back.

Don't buy Muscle-Tech. If you buy Muscle-Tech you might as well support the terrorists while your at it.
yea i know he has but we are just having a convo now haha and ive learned the hard way not to buy muscle tech
 
Dr Packenwood

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CM.

When I take CM I notice results in the form of pumps and increase in strength.

When I took CEE (for a month...still have most of what I bought over a year ago left now that I looked around for my bottle) I noticed NOTHING, and it had this awful acidic bitter taste. I had to mix it with grape juice concentrate to get it down.

I'm not a chemist, and I've never read a study on the stuff, but I'll never buy CEE again, and I probably won't but any other type of creatine product other than creatine monohydrate.

I have used CM on and off for nearly 13 years now, and EVERY TIME I use it, I see results within a few days. So when I saw NOTHING using CEE I knew it was bunk.
 
thesinner

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fritzer already made his point. There are TONS of studies to back up CM. Why reinvent the wheel ? Monohydrate is non-toxic and it works. There is nothing further to discuss about it.

Yeah I used CEE too. That's precious money I'll never get back.

Don't buy Muscle-Tech. If you buy Muscle-Tech you might as well support the terrorists while your at it.
We prefer to be called "Freedom Fighters".
 

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so cm does not put any added detrimental stress on the kidney's?? even at the dose of 25g??? also the 3 on 3 off at 25g, how long do u cycle that for or is that a constant thing??
 
Cellardude

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but some people swear by CEE, who am i to tell them No. If you love it and must use it, then so be it! Do what works, but just be safe and careful over your precious kidneys
mnnn ditto. intresting read you had there. I remember back in highschool when this dude started taking creatine. First guy i knew who was on it. He got into the art of body building maybe before the summer around may or june. He came back the next year much more vascular and bigger. Not even a week later he was sent to the hospital to get water pumped out of his kidneys. I have been on mono creatine for awhile and have had no problems. Maybe he was taking CEE who knows. I did know that he lacked experience in body building and his first approach was to start taking supps without research and proper diet. I should ask him one day what kind of creatine he was on but i doubt that was his problem. the lack of research in how to use the creatine was probably what did him justice.
 
Cellardude

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yah, creakic is a weird one. I am hesitant because i had amazing results with my 3on/3off CM split. the creakic is definitly overpriced, but i have a lot of people who like it and just as many who will never buy it again... so its a 50/50.... and NO studies on that one at all. So i guess that would be a at your own risk and if you feel it works kinda thing... if your friend likes it and no kidney discomfort then maybe it just is good!! from its formula it does not seem to be able to turn toxic but i could be wrong...

But i have to rely on my personal motto "if it says muscletech on the bottle there is crap inside" haha
:head: agreed.
 
Cellardude

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so cm does not put any added detrimental stress on the kidney's?? even at the dose of 25g??? also the 3 on 3 off at 25g, how long do u cycle that for or is that a constant thing??
hmn weird way of dosing. why would you dose at 25g? loading phase doesnt really work imo. Ive tried it. 25g of creatine is overkill and just a waste imo. once your cells are saturated with creatine all you need to do is maintain it. I think 10g a day is enough. ive never seen anyone load creatine that way before. intresting... but hey if it works for you then it works for you. just my 2cents.
 
Movin_weight

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I'v been reading over some threads about CEE and CM and i'v determined that they need to do a study of CEE's absorbtion into muscle tissue once it passes through the stomach b/c thats the only thing that is important

one of many studys claims that 99% of CM was still available after being in the stomach for 30min and only 70% of the CEE... but this doesn't really mean **** to me

theres a study out that showed 100g of CM taken over a 5 day period (loading phase) caused an increase in total muscle creatine concentration by 25% in test subjects, which is fu*kin great!

But it's quite obviouse that 99% of that 100g didn't go straight into the muscles, most of it was still excreted

So if only 70% of CEE injested makes it through the stomach and into the bloodstream... then what effect does that 70% have on total muscle creatine concentration??? maybe CEE has a better absorbtion rate into the muscle as compared to CM once it bypasses the stomach... who knows until a study is done

just a different way to look at it and maybe it will stir up some more chatter even though i'm in no way supporting CEE cuz i know CM is tryed and true, but many swear by CEE as well :duel:
 

ReaperX

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Yeah and Hitler got all of Germany to think his extermination plan was right, but that does not mean it was. Same thing applies to CEE. (yes the analogies are appropriate for those of you wondering).
 
EctoPower

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:aargh: :aargh: :aargh: :aargh: :aargh:

"Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in!!!"

Where to begin?

Dess, it's 20-25 grams per day, depending on body weight, for 3 days on, then 3 days completely off CM. Repeat indefinitely.

Cellar, if you actually know someone who had kidney trouble with creatine, which is incredibly rare, it was most likely a result of not drinking enough water. Which is stupid. Especially when dosing creatine at a higher level, proper hydration is mandatory.

Movin, go back and read all of the posts in this thread by Fritzer. This should be all a person needs for now to, at the VERY least question the hell out of CEE. In my opinion, anybody who thinks CEE works has deluded themselves via the placebo effect. It's overhyped crapola created by marketing departments, not laboratories.

People are still going to do whatever they do, but I'll be damned if I can understand why people keep blowing money on CEE.
 

ReaperX

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to EctoPower again.


Ecto, I can always count on you handing out dat good shet.
 
EctoPower

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to EctoPower again.


Ecto, I can always count on you handing out dat good shet.
You gotta be kidding me!! When's the last time you repped my skanky butt? You haven't dished out any love to others since then???? Hmph. You're slackin bro! :lol:

Thanks for tryin!
 

dess

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How is the 20-25g dosed?? pre and post workout, or is it spread throughout the day to maximize absorption???
 
Movin_weight

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lol i do question CEE thats why i posted above, but i'd still like to see a study done on to what degree if any CEE increases muscle creatine concentration... this would put the nail in the coffin so to speak if the stuff is useless

Fritzer makes a valid argument but the study posted and his overall points still have nothing to do with CEE's uptake in muscle tissue, the only study that has been done proves that CEE is not as stable as CM in stomach acid which doesnt really have anything to do with creatine levels in the muscles... only with how much of the original amount injested bypasses the stomach and reaches the blood stream
 

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