Creatine Ethyl Ester Vs. Creatine Monohydrate

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    Question Creatine Ethyl Ester Vs. Creatine Monohydrate


    I have read that CEE is better than CM because of the different chemical compound. I have done much more research on CM but I have just bought a bottle of CEE (pills)
    was it a smart move and does anyone have any recomendations for futher supps? also help explain the differences of the two.

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    I think so because I notice no bloating on CEE as it is better absorbed by the body and I get massive bloats on CM. I notice better strength gains with CM + Taurine. I also heard that CEE is uneffected by caffeine and CM is, so CEE would be better PWO if you like you caffeine (and who doesn't).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    I think so because I notice no bloating on CEE as it is better absorbed by the body and I get massive bloats on CM. I notice better strength gains with CM + Taurine. I also heard that CEE is uneffected by caffeine and CM is, so CEE would be better PWO if you like you caffeine (and who doesn't).
    alright thanks man.
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    CM is better than CEE. CEE converts to creatinine very rapidly. In other words CEE makes expensive pee.

    http://forums.musculardevelopment.co...ead.php?t=5693
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    Kid, you're 16. You don't need creatine yet. Get some whey protein, lift like a madman, and eat your face off (not literally).

    In a couple years, feel free to add in creatine monohydrate. By that time CEE won't exist anymore because everyone will have finally realized that it's a fraud and, sensing that they can no longer pimp that BS, companies will discontinue making it.

    Those companies will replace it with "New No-bloat Methylated Creati-bol." Feel free to ignore that as well...
    Last edited by EctoPower; 08-01-2007 at 04:24 PM. Reason: I can't spell...
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    Dude, have you tried Methlated Creati-bol? It's amazing! I've literally gained twice as much as you would expect from a Cell-tech ad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Dude, have you tried Methlated Creati-bol? It's amazing! I've literally gained twice as much as you would expect from a Cell-tech ad.
    More than Cell-tech?? No way! I'll need the requisite before and after picture and, if possible, a neat little graph showing how Methylated Creati-bol is absorbed faster.

    Be sure to include the disclaimer on the picture that participants have been remunerated... You know, I'll believe it even more if I know the guy in the picture got paid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EctoPower View Post
    Kid, you're 16. You don't need creatine yet. Get some whey protein, lift like a madman, and eat your face off (not literally).

    In a couple years, feel free to add in creatine monohydrate. By that time CEE won't exist anymore because everyone will have finally realized that it's a fraud and, sensing that they can no longer pimp that BS, companies will discontinue making it.

    Those companies will replace it with "New No-bloat Methylated Creati-bol." Feel free to ignore that as well...

    i know im 16. and i do have whey protein. and i do eat a **** load. and yes i do lift hard. but why do so many of my peers use creatine if there is no need to?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop2009 View Post
    i know im 16. and i do have whey protein. and i do eat a **** load. and yes i do lift hard. but why do so many of my peers use creatine if there is no need to?
    Because they don't know what the h*ll they're doing. These are the same kids who are going to buy Havoc because they think it's a test booster. I'll give you credit for at least coming on here and doing some research.

    The less supplements you use at a young age, the better. Get the basics down first and go with that for a couple years. It's not that CM would be dangerous for you at age 16, necessarily, just that you should really focus on the other stuff for much longer than most people want to. For instance, do you know what's going to happen and when if you add 200 calories a day? Have you tried different lifting methods or programs? Do you know exactly how your body responds to different versions of the same lifts? Do you know how introducing cardio and/or changing your cardio routine affects your body comp.? Have you been using an established schedule for both eating and training for at least a year? Do you keep a training log and know exactly which exercises get the most gains and how quickly you can increase weight? Do you have goals for each exercise? Do you have your PRs committed to memory? Do you try to break those PRs? Do you know what it feels like to plateau? Do you know when you're overtraining?

    If you don't know this stuff and a lot more, then you don't know enough to start throwing supplements at your body. Your buddies will have no clue what changes in their routine actually do because they have not established a baseline. Having that knowledge will serve you well as you start to experiment (and let's face it, that's what it is) with different supplements. Be patient and don't feel like you have to follow all the other kids as they jump off the bridge.
    Last edited by EctoPower; 08-01-2007 at 05:09 PM. Reason: Added stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EctoPower View Post
    Because they don't know what the h*ll they're doing. These are the same kids who are going to buy Havoc because they think it's a test booster. I'll give you credit for at least coming on here and doing some research.

    The less supplements you use at a young age, the better. Get the basics down first and go with that for a couple years. It's not that CM would be dangerous for you at age 16, necessarily, just that you should really focus on the other stuff for much longer than most people want to. For instance, do you know what's going to happen and when if you add 200 calories a day? Have you tried different lifting methods or programs? Do you know exactly how your body responds to different versions of the same lifts? Do you know how introducing cardio and/or changing your cardio routine affects your body comp.? Have you been using an established schedule for both eating and training for at least a year? Do you keep a training log and know exactly which exercises get the most gains and how quickly you can increase weight? Do you have goals for each exercise? Do you have your PRs committed to memory? Do you try to break those PRs? Do you know what it feels like to plateau? Do you know when you're overtraining?

    If you don't know this stuff and a lot more, then you don't know enough to start throwing supplements at your body. Your buddies will have no clue what changes in their routine actually do because they have not established a baseline. Having that knowledge will serve you well as you start to experiment (and let's face it, that's what it is) with different supplements. Be patient and don't feel like you have to follow all the other kids as they jump off the bridge.
    I like the way you think. And I do know some of the stuff that you talked about and I do have a journel and yes I do know my PR's. I know when im overtraining. I'm not very sure about the cardio part but I can try and learn. If you could tell me some more like how to figure all this stuff out i would be in your debt.
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    You look good bishop. Big arms, shoulder, and wide back for being so young. There will always be nea sayers and people that say do it. Its all gonna be up to you end the end. As long as you dont mess with PH-PS I feel whats it gonna hurt. But up to you...Easier to afford supps too when you live with your parents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisCoSheriff View Post
    You look good bishop. Big arms, shoulder, and wide back for being so young. There will always be nea sayers and people that say do it. Its all gonna be up to you end the end. As long as you dont mess with PH-PS I feel whats it gonna hurt. But up to you...Easier to afford supps too when you live with your parents.
    what do you mean PH and PS? and thanks. thats an old pic too i need to get some new ones ..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop2009 View Post
    what do you mean PH and PS? and thanks. thats an old pic too i need to get some new ones ..
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    Whatever you do get HPLC creatine. That way you know it is pure...and please please please do not buy Cell-Tech aka Self-Induced Type 2 Diabetes-Tech.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JpB View Post
    pro hormone pro steroid.
    o alright thanks man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    Whatever you do get HPLC creatine. That way you know it is pure...and please please please do not buy Cell-Tech aka Self-Induced Type 2 Diabetes-Tech.
    haha too late actually i took it for a week and a half and sold it haha i didnt like it..
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    The dexatrose/sugar content is ridiculous. It is a massive overkill and completely unnecessary. I tried the fruit punch one for a couple of weeks then I just stopped using it. I think each serving was like 67g of sugar. Like I said, self-induced type 2 diabetes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    The dexatrose/sugar content is ridiculous. It is a massive overkill and completely unnecessary. I tried the fruit punch one for a couple of weeks then I just stopped using it. I think each serving was like 67g of sugar. Like I said, self-induced type 2 diabetes.
    haha o yea for sure man so what supps would you recommend?
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    haha though i agree with reapers comments, utilizing simple sugars like dextrose around a workout can actually increase muscle cell receptors to insulin... have a study i will look for and post...
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    The research shows that CEE is very fast absorbing, while CM is much slower absorbing. We think it's best to stack them.

    You'll be able to get both in SyntheSIZE final in a week or two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Savage View Post
    The research shows that CEE is very fast absorbing, while CM is much slower absorbing. We think it's best to stack them.

    You'll be able to get both in SyntheSIZE final in a week or two.
    well i dunno if i want to take any creatine cuz last time i took it i got bloated.... (cell tech)
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    Just regular micronized creatine monohydrate and IDS's waxymaize afterwards. I suppose what your 'supposed' to do and what I actually do are 2 different things.

    I just take microcreatine straight up in water and drink something to clear the taste of my mouth. I don't use ALA or any of that stuff to act like insulin and 'push it into my muscles'. It'll get there by itself eventually anyway.

    I also know that my glycogen stores have been depleted after intense training, but I don't take in carbs to fill them up afterwards. I just drink a protein shake and leave it at that. Not taking in carbs after working out isn't going to seriously compromise anything.

    You need to be a smart consumer, or else you'll wind up getting a bunch of supplements you don't really need and wasting a lot of money.
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    oh my freakin gosh. you gotta be kidding me
    this crap again about CEE vs. Monohydrate... ARGH I am gonna repost what i did on another forum because it helped a lot of people, and i seriously seriously hate seeing people waste their cash on crap that doesn't work. I work in the fitness indistry right now while i am at school and it is ridiculous... i have yet to see someone who is huuuuge and cut up and know what they are doing come and ask for something with CEE


    ''Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

    Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

    1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

    Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

    This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

    After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

    CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.''
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    Just regular micronized creatine monohydrate and IDS's waxymaize afterwards. I suppose what your 'supposed' to do and what I actually do are 2 different things.

    I just take microcreatine straight up in water and drink something to clear the taste of my mouth. I don't use ALA or any of that stuff to act like insulin and 'push it into my muscles'. It'll get there by itself eventually anyway.

    I also know that my glycogen stores have been depleted after intense training, but I don't take in carbs to fill them up afterwards. I just drink a protein shake and leave it at that. Not taking in carbs after working out isn't going to seriously compromise anything.
    hmmmm really good info thanks i might have to try your approach.
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    you dont bloat on CEE because it doesnt work. How the hell are people still on the fence about this crap. I am gonna bust this out!

    1) Firstly, there is no need to “attach” an ester group to the creatine molecule. Nothing suggests that this attachment will make creatine any more bioavailable. Some marketers claim that this attachment prevents degradation by the liver. Creatine is actually synthesized in the liver

    2) Secondly, the ester attachment allegedly, enables this form of creatine to permeate the muscle cell membrane (outershell). Thus, more creatine can enter muscle cells. This is a straight out lie. The only way creatine and other amino acid compounds enter cells is via transporters. Yah, the creatine transporters for CREATINE MADE IN THE BODY NOT CREATINE ETHYL ESTER


    3) How naive are you people?? These companies claim 400x more absorption, faster absorption, etc over Creatine Monohydrate, THESE are specific claims, claims that need to be backed by science... ask one of these companies to show you a study not done by them and a few of their bodybuilders... NOTHING... "but but jay cutler says...." screw off

    4) You want to talk about CEE, hey guess what. Clayton south wrote an article. In the first line he lists 9 references dealing with Creatine monohydrate. Then uses them to back up CEE... it is douche bags like this that gets everyone confused...

    If anyone on this board can get me a SCIENTIFIC STUDY done by researchers that is controlled, look on academic search premier and pubmed, etc. Then i may just change my mind... but guess what i already looked 2 years ago, there is nothing and will never be anything proving CEE is superior because it is creatinine in a bottle

    I use creatine monohydrate 25g a day for 3 days then off for three and repeat over and over. I gained 20lbs in 2 months when i started this. I tried CEE and lost strength weekly (dymatize xpand)...

    there is research backing up what i do (25g a day for 3 days/ off 3 days).. a scientific study was with a 2week loading phase then 8 weeks 3-5g maintenance dose... after 8 weeks creatine levels were lower than before the men started the trial!!

    Achieving a high concentration of creatine within muscle is essential to triggering a powerful anabolic effect at the cellular level. However, it is clear that the traditional dosage pattern fails to maintain high muscle creatine concentrations over a longer period of time (6 to 12 weeks).

    1. Volek et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 31: 1147-1156, 1999.

    2. Cribb et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 35: S400, A2239, 2003

    3. Cribb et al. Presented at The Australian Association of Exercise and Sports Science Conference, April, 2004

    Excessive loading (the traditional way) may cause creatine saturation outside the cell that prevents effective muscle uptake for weeks or even months! [4]

    4. Guerrero-Ontivers, M.L. and Wallimann, T. Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry. 184: 427-437, 1998.

    A small maintenance dose is futile at maintaining high muscle creatine concentrations. Using a small dose after loading ensures that high muscle creatine concentrations disappear within 6 weeks![5]

    5. Van Loon et al. Clinical Science 104:153?162. 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer View Post
    oh my freakin gosh. you gotta be kidding me
    this crap again about CEE vs. Monohydrate... ARGH

    ''Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

    Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

    1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

    Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

    This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

    After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

    CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.''

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    ''Kre-alkalyn® supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

    Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

    1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. DrTallon@CR-Technologies.net

    All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn® (KA) a “Buffered” creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

    This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

    In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.''
    hmmm thanks and sorry for bringing up the CEE and CM discussion again... you know you didnt have to come and post but i thank you for doing so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer View Post
    you dont bloat on CEE because it doesnt work. How the hell are people still on the fence about this crap. I am gonna bust this out!

    1) Firstly, there is no need to “attach” an ester group to the creatine molecule. Nothing suggests that this attachment will make creatine any more bioavailable. Some marketers claim that this attachment prevents degradation by the liver. Creatine is actually synthesized in the liver, morons.

    2) Secondly, the ester attachment allegedly, enables this form of creatine to permeate the muscle cell membrane (outershell). Thus, more creatine can enter muscle cells. This is a straight out lie. The only way creatine and other amino acid compounds enter cells is via transporters. Yah, the creatine transporters for CREATINE MADE IN THE BODY NOT CREATINE ETHYL ESTER... morons


    3) How naive are you people?? These companies claim 400x more absorption, faster absorption, etc over Creatine Monohydrate, THESE are specific claims, claims that need to be backed by science... ask one of these companies to show you a study not done by them and a few of their bodybuilders... NOTHING... "but but jay cutler says...." screw off

    4) You want to talk about CEE, hey guess what. Clayton south wrote an article. In the first line he lists 9 references dealing with Creatine monohydrate. Then uses them to back up CEE... it is douche bags like this that gets everyone confused...

    If anyone on this board can get me a SCIENTIFIC STUDY done by researchers that is controlled, look on academic search premier and pubmed, etc. Then i may just change my mind... but guess what i already looked 2 years ago, there is nothing and will never be anything proving CEE is superior because it is creatinine in a bottle

    I use creatine monohydrate 25g a day for 3 days then off for three and repeat over and over. I gained 20lbs in 2 months when i started this. I tried CEE and lost strength weekly (dymatize xpand)...

    there is research backing up what i do (25g a day for 3 days/ off 3 days).. a scientific study was with a 2week loading phase then 8 weeks 3-5g maintenance dose... after 8 weeks creatine levels were lower than before the men started the trial!!

    Achieving a high concentration of creatine within muscle is essential to triggering a powerful anabolic effect at the cellular level. However, it is clear that the traditional dosage pattern fails to maintain high muscle creatine concentrations over a longer period of time (6 to 12 weeks).

    1. Volek et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 31: 1147-1156, 1999.

    2. Cribb et al. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 35: S400, A2239, 2003

    3. Cribb et al. Presented at The Australian Association of Exercise and Sports Science Conference, April, 2004

    Excessive loading (the traditional way) may cause creatine saturation outside the cell that prevents effective muscle uptake for weeks or even months! [4]

    4. Guerrero-Ontivers, M.L. and Wallimann, T. Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry. 184: 427-437, 1998.

    A small maintenance dose is futile at maintaining high muscle creatine concentrations. Using a small dose after loading ensures that high muscle creatine concentrations disappear within 6 weeks![5]

    5. Van Loon et al. Clinical Science 104:153?162. 2003
    i never bloated while on CEE it was on CM
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    my pleasure if i can get even one person to step out of the dark side it is really disgusting how these reps come in and try to persuade me about absolute junk, take me out to lunch to sell their trash products and they dont even know any research that has ever been done. I try to give everyone my honest opinion on what i use and what works... and the last thing i want is some kid to spen $70 on a CEE product when they could be doing better off of a $10 jug of CM

    yah bishop i understand you never bloated on CEE, and pushing water into muscle cells "bloating" causes large increases in strength. and also ofcourse...... creatinine doesnt make you bloat. there was a couple people on this forum who had serious kidney disorder when on CEE i wish they would speak up. Another repm i want to say Grunt76 but i may be wrong took blood tests, his kidney on CEE was huuuuuuuuuge when he went off it went back to normal. When on CM it was also normal...
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer View Post
    my pleasure if i can get even one person to step out of the dark side it is really disgusting how these reps come in and try to persuade me about absolute junk, take me out to lunch to sell their trash products and they dont even know any research that has ever been done. I try to give everyone my honest opinion on what i use and what works... and the last thing i want is some kid to spen $70 on a CEE product when they could be doing better off of a $10 jug of CM
    thanks really thanks.... its hard to tell fact from fiction these days i mean ive done research and its hard to tell from even that because so many people have different oppinions...
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    but some people swear by CEE, who am i to tell them No. If you love it and must use it, then so be it! Do what works, but just be safe and careful over your precious kidneys
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    what do you think about creakic my friend is taking it and he says its amazing....
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer View Post
    but some people swear by CEE, who am i to tell them No. If you love it and must use it, then so be it! Do what works, but just be safe and careful over your precious kidneys
    yea for sure thats why i wanna be careful cuz uhh well duh you need kidneys haha.
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    yah, creakic is a weird one. I am hesitant because i had amazing results with my 3on/3off CM split. the creakic is definitly overpriced, but i have a lot of people who like it and just as many who will never buy it again... so its a 50/50.... and NO studies on that one at all. So i guess that would be a at your own risk and if you feel it works kinda thing... if your friend likes it and no kidney discomfort then maybe it just is good!! from its formula it does not seem to be able to turn toxic but i could be wrong...

    But i have to rely on my personal motto "if it says muscletech on the bottle there is crap inside" haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer View Post
    yah, creakic is a weird one. I am hesitant because i had amazing results with my 3on/3off CM split. the creakic is definitly overpriced, but i have a lot of people who like it and just as many who will never buy it again... so its a 50/50.... and NO studies on that one at all. So i guess that would be a at your own risk and if you feel it works kinda thing... if your friend likes it and no kidney discomfort then maybe it just is good!! from its formula it does not seem to be able to turn toxic but i could be wrong...

    But i have to rely on my personal motto "if it says muscletech on the bottle there is crap inside" haha
    haha i like your motto
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    fritzer already made his point. There are TONS of studies to back up CM. Why reinvent the wheel ? Monohydrate is non-toxic and it works. There is nothing further to discuss about it.

    Yeah I used CEE too. That's precious money I'll never get back.

    Don't buy Muscle-Tech. If you buy Muscle-Tech you might as well support the terrorists while your at it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    fritzer already made his point. There are TONS of studies to back up CM. Why reinvent the wheel ? Monohydrate is non-toxic and it works. There is nothing further to discuss about it.

    Yeah I used CEE too. That's precious money I'll never get back.

    Don't buy Muscle-Tech. If you buy Muscle-Tech you might as well support the terrorists while your at it.
    yea i know he has but we are just having a convo now haha and ive learned the hard way not to buy muscle tech
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    CM all the way
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    CM.

    When I take CM I notice results in the form of pumps and increase in strength.

    When I took CEE (for a month...still have most of what I bought over a year ago left now that I looked around for my bottle) I noticed NOTHING, and it had this awful acidic bitter taste. I had to mix it with grape juice concentrate to get it down.

    I'm not a chemist, and I've never read a study on the stuff, but I'll never buy CEE again, and I probably won't but any other type of creatine product other than creatine monohydrate.

    I have used CM on and off for nearly 13 years now, and EVERY TIME I use it, I see results within a few days. So when I saw NOTHING using CEE I knew it was bunk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    fritzer already made his point. There are TONS of studies to back up CM. Why reinvent the wheel ? Monohydrate is non-toxic and it works. There is nothing further to discuss about it.

    Yeah I used CEE too. That's precious money I'll never get back.

    Don't buy Muscle-Tech. If you buy Muscle-Tech you might as well support the terrorists while your at it.
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    so cm does not put any added detrimental stress on the kidney's?? even at the dose of 25g??? also the 3 on 3 off at 25g, how long do u cycle that for or is that a constant thing??
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