[strategicmove]

Originally Posted by rcaz01;

...
I have another questions, whatever happened to using HMB as well? Doesn't this cover Leucine needs as well? is straight Leucine better than HMB?...

Adding HMß (Beta-Hydroxy-Beta-Methylbutyrate) to L-Leucine/BCAAs is always a useful option. As an L-Leucine derivative, HMß, like BCAAs, minimizes training or stress-induced catabolism, improves VO2-Max, and aids in fat metabolism. It also reduces the depletion of creatine phosphate, just like Rhodiola and co.
By the way, only about 3% - 5% of the consumed L-Leucine is metabolized to HMß. While this may not be a dramatically significant amount, additional supplementation with HMß ensures relatively more L-Leucine is available. L-Leucine is a more versatile compound than HMß, so HMß cannot (and should not) replace L-Leucine, but can dramatically boost the effects of L-Leucine.

[rcaz01]

Thanks for the info!

Would you add in your HMß before or after your workout?

Based on your descriprition I can see an argument for both.

[strategicmove]

Originally Posted by rcaz01;

Thanks for the info!

Would you add in your HMß before or after your workout?

Based on your descriprition I can see an argument for both.

Yes, both!

[AM07]

So who makes a good liver supplement that alwaysgaining referred to? Is this a supplement for the liver? Or is it a combination of all of the amino acids?

[rcaz01]

I am not sure which one he was mentioning but the only two I am aware of and that are on Nutra's site are Beverly's and Universal's. My preference is for the Beverly which they call Ultra-40.

Both products are dessicated beef liver not a supplement for the liver. Nutra's site has the profiles for both listed

[AM07]

Originally Posted by rcaz01

I am not sure which one he was mentioning but the only two I am aware of and that are on Nutra's site are Beverly's and Universal's. My preference is for the Beverly which they call Ultra-40.

Both products are dessicated beef liver not a supplement for the liver. Nutra's site has the profiles for both listed

So this is what you're referring to? If so, how many capsules do you take per day, and when is the best time to take them? Do you take any other AA or whey supplements?

[rcaz01]

Originally Posted by alwaysgaining

well to put this all to rest
liver tabs are the only way to go
they contine all the amino acid/peptieds and evrything in between
i dose 18/20 a day
best supp i ever started to take in my life
weight is up, fullness is up, fat is down, energy/endurance is way up, and my strength is rising atleast 5lbs on all my major lfts evry week and a half or so
do some research on them, then think twice about wasting your money on bcaa, eaa

From his post it looks like just the liver.

I still drink my shakes and before my workout take BCAA's. When I take the Liver I take the same amount 18-20, which is roughly 1 per every 10lbs of body weight. This is what is recommended per the mfg as well.

[djbombsquad]

I would do hydro whey isolate or hydro casein but hydro whey costs more than you do it with bcaa and leucine combo with some carbs.

[LimitTester]

Even when taking as many as 40 liver tabs a day (universal), you don't get a large amount of EAA's. We are talking about a total of
4000 mg Leucine
2400 mg Isoleucine
2800 mg Valine
3800 mg Lysine
120 mg Histidine
1100 mg Methionine
1800 mg Threonine
2200 mg Phenylalanine

For the sake of comparison, here is the amino profile of the recommended serving of Primaforce EAA's:
L-Leucine 4860 mg †
L-Valine 2160 mg †
L-Lysine HCL 2160 mg †
L-Phenylalanine 1836 mg †
L-Threonine 1296 mg †
L-Isoleucine 864 mg †
L-Histidine 702 mg †
L-Methionine 486 mg †

Liver tabs also have many other amino's as well as Heme iron, B-12, minerals, etc.

[rcaz01]

I agree I think the Liver can still be enhanced with some other supplements. EAA and BCAA's...

I believe it covers most of the B vitamins, folic acid, inositol, a lot of good stuff. When you take you got to make sure an up your fiber intake though, or at least I find I need to.

[djbombsquad]

Originally Posted by strategicmove

Adding HMß (Beta-Hydroxy-Beta-Methylbutyrate) to L-Leucine/BCAAs is always a useful option. As an L-Leucine derivative, HMß, like BCAAs, minimizes training or stress-induced catabolism, improves VO2-Max, and aids in fat metabolism. It also reduces the depletion of creatine phosphate, just like Rhodiola and co.
By the way, only about 3% - 5% of the consumed L-Leucine is metabolized to HMß. While this may not be a dramatically significant amount, additional supplementation with HMß ensures relatively more L-Leucine is available. L-Leucine is a more versatile compound than HMß, so HMß cannot (and should not) replace L-Leucine, but can dramatically boost the effects of L-Leucine.

Here are the supplements that I've taken in the past but don't feel they were worth my investment of time or money or talkin about. I not only took these supplements on a regular basis and for an extended period, but I also supported them with my very best effort in the gym and at the dinner table. So, I truly feel comfortable that I've given them a fair evaluation. I'm sure there may be a few others not included on the list that are no longer being sold.

Certain amino acids taken separately like OKG, Arginine, etc.
Liquid Amino Acids - yuk!
Chromium Picolinate (taken alone)
Cortisol Blockers
Creatine mixed in juice - now there is Creatine HSC.
HMB - what a waste.
L-Carnatine
Pyruvate
ZMA

HMB (beta-hydroxy beta-methylbutyrate) was launched on to the sports supplement market back in 1996 by a rather savvy entrepreneur. It was a well-marketed product, surrounded by a lot of hype and very little science. It is still one of the most advertised products in the sports supplement industry. Yet there is still only one research paper (published at the time of its launch) that demonstrates any muscle building effect from HMB use ¾ and that study used untrained individuals [1].

There have been a number of reports presented in abstract form at various sports science conferences around the world and some have showed beneficial effects [2-6]. Yet none of these studies have been published in full in a peer-reviewed journal. Why? I don't know. This is particularly odd as evidence of any nutritional supplement that can enhance body composition and athletic performance is such a hot topic. In May 2000, one published study involving experienced bodybuilders clearly demonstrated that HMB exerted no muscle building effect, even at double the prescribed dose [7].

Recently, another research study involving experienced bodybuilders using HMB was published. This study examined HMB's muscle building effects during eight weeks of resistance training [8]. The results obtained were rather strange. The methodology used was very unusual and the way in which the data was interpreted by the researchers was very strange to say the least!

The research….

The study involved 37 male weight trainers divided into three groups. Group one was given 3-grams of HMB. Group two was given 6-grams and group three 0-grams (a sugar placebo) of HMB per day. Three grams of HMB per day is the prescribed dosage that will, supposedly, reduce muscle damage significantly and increase strength and lean mass. Body composition (lean and fat mass) was assessed, as well as strength (by 1-rep max), peak isokinetic torque in leg muscles and plasma creatine phosphokinase (PK) activity; this provides an indication of muscle damage.

The results….

After eight weeks of weight training, the data showed no differences between HMB or the placebo in peak muscle torque, muscle strength and body fat. Apart from the first weight training session, the data on PK levels showed no differences between the groups either. Remember, a reduction in muscle damage is one of the big claims made by the marketers of HMB. However, HMB failed to produce any significant reduction in PK levels, indicating that HMB supplementation does not reduce the muscle damage created by resistance training. This result was confirmed by a previous study [7].

A reduction in muscle damage is one of the big claims made by the marketers of HMB. However, the research on experienced bodybuilders show that HMB does not reduce muscle damage.

The data on changes in lean mass (muscle) obtained in the present study was not impressive either. In fact, the phase highly speculative comes to mind when assessing the results.

In this study, the group taking 3-grams of HMB per day gained just under 4-pounds (1.9-kgs) of lean mass after 7-weeks of training. The group taking the placebo gained 2.2 pounds (1-kg), however, the group taking 6-grams of HMB per day did not produce any gain in muscle mass!

Now, I aint the smartest guy walking around, but common logic dictates that if 3-grams of HMB per day increases muscle mass by around 4-pounds, then taking 6-grams (double the recommended dose) should produce at least the same gains, if not, more. However, in this study the group taking 6-grams of HMB a day produced zero gains! A result worse than the group taking a sugar-based placebo!

The real eye-opener was the fact that the researchers (authors) of this study when on to suggest that HMB supplementation is effective at increasing muscle mass. I cannot see how results could possibly be interpreted in this way. "A very mixed result" would be a more realistic interpretation. However, read on because now the plot really thickens.

This is the second study to demonstrate that taking 6-grams of HMB a day (double the prescribed dose) produces zero gains in muscle!

When body composition assessment is the primary focus of a research study, the most accurate methods are almost always used. Underwater weighing and DEXA (duel energy x-ray absorptiometer) are the most reliable and credible methods of assessing changes in body fat and muscle mass. The researchers of this study chose to use only the skin fold caliper technique. Now, using skin fold calipers (pinching and measuring the skin fold) to guestimate body fat and muscle mass is okay for the local gym or fitness center. However, it is commonly known that even if the technician is highly skilled, there is still an enormous amount of room for error with this technique.

In this day and age, when highly accurate body composition technology is readily avalible, the skin fold technique is a stone-age choice. As the sole method for body composition assessment in university research, it is a pitiful choice. Especially when you consider that this study was produced by one of the largest, best equipped university sports science facilities in the world.

The clear science on HMB

Let me be very clear on the research behind HMB for bodybuilding. To date there is only one paper that has been published that demonstrates any muscle building effect. This is the same paper used to initially launch HMB more than five years ago, and this research involved untrained subjects. Two studies that used trained lifters showed HMB produced zero benefits, at double the recommended dose. The most recent research has produced results that are best, unconvincing, and after carefull assessment can only be described as highly questionable.

Don't get me wrong; I have no problem with any company that can manufacture a quality supplement that works. The entire industry gains credibility when this happens.

However, the fact is that HMB continues to be marketed to athletes as a supplement that enhances recovery, strength and muscle growth. This is a complete sham. I do have a problem with marketers hyping a supplement as a research-proven muscle builder while the real scientific evidence shows the complete opposite. The next time you see an advertisement promoting HMB as a research-proven supplement that builds muscle, be very skeptical. Not only of the product, but also supplement company that markets it.

References

1.Nissen, S., R. Sharp, M. Ray, et al. Effects of leucine metabolite B-hydroxy B-methylbutyrate on muscle metabolism during resistance-exercise training. J. Appl. Physiol. 81: 2095-2104, 1996.

2.Abumrad, N., B. Phillips, and W. Cheng.B -hydroxy B-methylbutyrate increases fatty acid oxidation by muscle cells (Abstract). FASEB J. 11:1997.

3.Nissen, S., L. Panton, J. Fuller, Jr., D. Rice, and R. Sharp. Effects of feeding B- hydroxy B-methylbutyrate (HMB) on body composition and strength of women (Abstract). FASEB J. 11:1997.

4.Nissen, S., L. Panton, R. Wilhelm, and J. C. Fuller, Jr. Effects of B-hydroxy B-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation on strength and body composition of trained and untrained males undergoing intense resistance training (Abstract). FASEB J. 10: A287, 1996.

5.Ostaszewksi, P., S. Kostiuk, B. Balasinska, I. Papet, F. Glomot, and S. Nissen. The effects of 3-hydroxy 3-methyl butyrate (HMB) on muscle protein synthesis and protein breakdown in chick and rat muscle (Abstract). J. Anim. Sci. 74: 138, 1996.

6.Vuckovich, M. D., N. D. Stubbs, R. M. Bohlken, M. F. Desch, J. C. Fuller, Jr., and J. A. Rathmacher. The effects of dietary B-hydroxy B-methylbutyrate (HMB) on strength gains and body composition changes in older adults (Abstract). FASEB J. 12(5): A652, 1998.

7. Kreider RB; Ferreira M; Wilson M; Almada AL. Effects of calcium B-Hydroxy-B-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation during resistance-training on markers of catabolism, body composition and strength. Int.J.Sports Med. 20:503-509; Dec 1999.

8. Gallagher PM; Carrithers JA; Godard MP; Schulze KE; Trappe SW. Beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate ingestion, Part I: effects on strength and fat free mass. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 32(12):2109-15, 2000.

[msucurt]

Originally Posted by djbombsquad

Here are the supplements that I've taken in the past but don't feel they were worth my investment of time or money or talkin about. I not only took these supplements on a regular basis and for an extended period, but I also supported them with my very best effort in the gym and at the dinner table. So, I truly feel comfortable that I've given them a fair evaluation. I'm sure there may be a few others not included on the list that are no longer being sold.

Certain amino acids taken separately like OKG, Arginine, etc.
Liquid Amino Acids - yuk!
Chromium Picolinate (taken alone)
Cortisol Blockers
Creatine mixed in juice - now there is Creatine HSC.
HMB - what a waste.
L-Carnatine
Pyruvate
ZMA

HMB (beta-hydroxy beta-methylbutyrate) was launched on to the sports supplement market back in 1996 by a rather savvy entrepreneur. It was a well-marketed product, surrounded by a lot of hype and very little science. It is still one of the most advertised products in the sports supplement industry. Yet there is still only one research paper (published at the time of its launch) that demonstrates any muscle building effect from HMB use ¾ and that study used untrained individuals [1].

There have been a number of reports presented in abstract form at various sports science conferences around the world and some have showed beneficial effects [2-6]. Yet none of these studies have been published in full in a peer-reviewed journal. Why? I don't know. This is particularly odd as evidence of any nutritional supplement that can enhance body composition and athletic performance is such a hot topic. In May 2000, one published study involving experienced bodybuilders clearly demonstrated that HMB exerted no muscle building effect, even at double the prescribed dose [7].

Recently, another research study involving experienced bodybuilders using HMB was published. This study examined HMB's muscle building effects during eight weeks of resistance training [8]. The results obtained were rather strange. The methodology used was very unusual and the way in which the data was interpreted by the researchers was very strange to say the least!

The research….

The study involved 37 male weight trainers divided into three groups. Group one was given 3-grams of HMB. Group two was given 6-grams and group three 0-grams (a sugar placebo) of HMB per day. Three grams of HMB per day is the prescribed dosage that will, supposedly, reduce muscle damage significantly and increase strength and lean mass. Body composition (lean and fat mass) was assessed, as well as strength (by 1-rep max), peak isokinetic torque in leg muscles and plasma creatine phosphokinase (PK) activity; this provides an indication of muscle damage.

The results….

After eight weeks of weight training, the data showed no differences between HMB or the placebo in peak muscle torque, muscle strength and body fat. Apart from the first weight training session, the data on PK levels showed no differences between the groups either. Remember, a reduction in muscle damage is one of the big claims made by the marketers of HMB. However, HMB failed to produce any significant reduction in PK levels, indicating that HMB supplementation does not reduce the muscle damage created by resistance training. This result was confirmed by a previous study [7].

A reduction in muscle damage is one of the big claims made by the marketers of HMB. However, the research on experienced bodybuilders show that HMB does not reduce muscle damage.

The data on changes in lean mass (muscle) obtained in the present study was not impressive either. In fact, the phase highly speculative comes to mind when assessing the results.

In this study, the group taking 3-grams of HMB per day gained just under 4-pounds (1.9-kgs) of lean mass after 7-weeks of training. The group taking the placebo gained 2.2 pounds (1-kg), however, the group taking 6-grams of HMB per day did not produce any gain in muscle mass!

Now, I aint the smartest guy walking around, but common logic dictates that if 3-grams of HMB per day increases muscle mass by around 4-pounds, then taking 6-grams (double the recommended dose) should produce at least the same gains, if not, more. However, in this study the group taking 6-grams of HMB a day produced zero gains! A result worse than the group taking a sugar-based placebo!

The real eye-opener was the fact that the researchers (authors) of this study when on to suggest that HMB supplementation is effective at increasing muscle mass. I cannot see how results could possibly be interpreted in this way. "A very mixed result" would be a more realistic interpretation. However, read on because now the plot really thickens.

This is the second study to demonstrate that taking 6-grams of HMB a day (double the prescribed dose) produces zero gains in muscle!

When body composition assessment is the primary focus of a research study, the most accurate methods are almost always used. Underwater weighing and DEXA (duel energy x-ray absorptiometer) are the most reliable and credible methods of assessing changes in body fat and muscle mass. The researchers of this study chose to use only the skin fold caliper technique. Now, using skin fold calipers (pinching and measuring the skin fold) to guestimate body fat and muscle mass is okay for the local gym or fitness center. However, it is commonly known that even if the technician is highly skilled, there is still an enormous amount of room for error with this technique.

In this day and age, when highly accurate body composition technology is readily avalible, the skin fold technique is a stone-age choice. As the sole method for body composition assessment in university research, it is a pitiful choice. Especially when you consider that this study was produced by one of the largest, best equipped university sports science facilities in the world.

The clear science on HMB

Let me be very clear on the research behind HMB for bodybuilding. To date there is only one paper that has been published that demonstrates any muscle building effect. This is the same paper used to initially launch HMB more than five years ago, and this research involved untrained subjects. Two studies that used trained lifters showed HMB produced zero benefits, at double the recommended dose. The most recent research has produced results that are best, unconvincing, and after carefull assessment can only be described as highly questionable.

Don't get me wrong; I have no problem with any company that can manufacture a quality supplement that works. The entire industry gains credibility when this happens.

However, the fact is that HMB continues to be marketed to athletes as a supplement that enhances recovery, strength and muscle growth. This is a complete sham. I do have a problem with marketers hyping a supplement as a research-proven muscle builder while the real scientific evidence shows the complete opposite. The next time you see an advertisement promoting HMB as a research-proven supplement that builds muscle, be very skeptical. Not only of the product, but also supplement company that markets it.

References

1.Nissen, S., R. Sharp, M. Ray, et al. Effects of leucine metabolite B-hydroxy B-methylbutyrate on muscle metabolism during resistance-exercise training. J. Appl. Physiol. 81: 2095-2104, 1996.

2.Abumrad, N., B. Phillips, and W. Cheng.B -hydroxy B-methylbutyrate increases fatty acid oxidation by muscle cells (Abstract). FASEB J. 11:1997.

3.Nissen, S., L. Panton, J. Fuller, Jr., D. Rice, and R. Sharp. Effects of feeding B- hydroxy B-methylbutyrate (HMB) on body composition and strength of women (Abstract). FASEB J. 11:1997.

4.Nissen, S., L. Panton, R. Wilhelm, and J. C. Fuller, Jr. Effects of B-hydroxy B-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation on strength and body composition of trained and untrained males undergoing intense resistance training (Abstract). FASEB J. 10: A287, 1996.

5.Ostaszewksi, P., S. Kostiuk, B. Balasinska, I. Papet, F. Glomot, and S. Nissen. The effects of 3-hydroxy 3-methyl butyrate (HMB) on muscle protein synthesis and protein breakdown in chick and rat muscle (Abstract). J. Anim. Sci. 74: 138, 1996.

6.Vuckovich, M. D., N. D. Stubbs, R. M. Bohlken, M. F. Desch, J. C. Fuller, Jr., and J. A. Rathmacher. The effects of dietary B-hydroxy B-methylbutyrate (HMB) on strength gains and body composition changes in older adults (Abstract). FASEB J. 12(5): A652, 1998.

7. Kreider RB; Ferreira M; Wilson M; Almada AL. Effects of calcium B-Hydroxy-B-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation during resistance-training on markers of catabolism, body composition and strength. Int.J.Sports Med. 20:503-509; Dec 1999.

8. Gallagher PM; Carrithers JA; Godard MP; Schulze KE; Trappe SW. Beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate ingestion, Part I: effects on strength and fat free mass. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 32(12):2109-15, 2000.

Bomb, what would you say are your top 5 supplements that are worth the coin and useful to your body? (outside of fish oil, whey, multi's, creatine)

thanks man

[kwyckemynd00]

Originally Posted by ReaperX

Ok there are already 4 things wrong with this study that was presented to me (I'm going off of what was copy and pasted b/c the link does not work):
....
So there you go.

I know this is an old thread, but, just as an FYI to everyone. Before you criticize a study on things like sample size and other details, make sure you're actually reading the entire paper, not just the abstract, which is essentially a 200-300 word summary of what is likely a 10 page paper