RPM on Cycle??

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    RPM on Cycle??


    i am about to start my havoc cycle, is it ok to use rpm during cycle? or during PCT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidcyt View Post
    i am about to start my havoc cycle, is it ok to use rpm during cycle? or during post cycle therapy?
    what type of cycle are you on?
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    RPM is amazing pre workout, so you can't go wrong. And you could most likely carry it right over to PCT.
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    I would save it for PCT. You are gonna want more when it runs out and it may not be in stock!. Best for PCT, when you need a kick in the butt from RPM!
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    Save it for PCT or after. Do NOT take it with orals or things like Nolva because the naringinen enhances the effects (to the point of possibly being dangerous) of many different drugs.
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    thank you all guys, i may get some bottles for my pct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    Save it for post cycle therapy or after. Do NOT take it with orals or things like Nolva because the naringinen enhances the effects (to the point of possibly being dangerous) of many different drugs.
    Depending on your cycle, it has good uses during both cycle and PCT.
    Regardless, everybody rep Bio. Good call on the naringin, man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    Save it for post cycle therapy or after. Do NOT take it with orals or things like Nolva because the naringinen enhances the effects (to the point of possibly being dangerous) of many different drugs.
    Well I took it one time while on orals... uh oh.
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    Emo,
    Probably not a huge issue.... you would've felt if there was an issue I'd assume.

    Don't stress!
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    It's just something to keep in mind. We know there are subtle problems with grapefruit juice and things like Nolva, so if taking anything that may stress the liver/be toxic, you may want to space out the dose so you're not taking them at the same time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    It's just something to keep in mind. We know there are subtle problems with grapefruit juice and things like Nolva, so if taking anything that may stress the liver/be toxic, you may want to space out the dose so you're not taking them at the same time.
    Agreed- naringin alters the pharmacokinetics of many drugs, extending their half-life in the body- this can be a good thing or a bad thing- it is simply something that someone needs to be aware of when taking RPM- especially when taking harsher 17-aa orals.

    I think RPM will stack extremely well with any of these compounds, and can be used effectively for PCT, or stacked with PS/PH, BUT the user needs to be extremely careful when mixing these compounds- b/c the naringin in RPM will optimize/extend the effects of anything taken along w/ it, so please use caution, and start small!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Agreed- naringin alters the pharmacokinetics of many drugs, extending their half-life in the body- this can be a good thing or a bad thing- it is simply something that someone needs to be aware of when taking RPM- especially when taking harsher 17-aa orals.

    I think RPM will stack extremely well with any of these compounds, and can be used effectively for post cycle therapy, or stacked with PS/PH, BUT the user needs to be extremely careful when mixing these compounds- b/c the naringin in RPM will optimize/extend the effects of anything taken along w/ it, so please use caution, and start small!!!
    Well I took 6 RPM one day. On the same day I had taken 40 mg of epistane... sooo...
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Agreed- naringin alters the pharmacokinetics of many drugs, extending their half-life in the body- this can be a good thing or a bad thing- it is simply something that someone needs to be aware of when taking RPM- especially when taking harsher 17-aa orals.

    I think RPM will stack extremely well with any of these compounds, and can be used effectively for post cycle therapy, or stacked with PS/PH, BUT the user needs to be extremely careful when mixing these compounds- b/c the naringin in RPM will optimize/extend the effects of anything taken along w/ it, so please use caution, and start small!!!
    Sooo, if it is not hepatoxic...it should not be a big deal. For example, Ergo 1AD, Derm 4AD, and RPM should not be an issue?

    RPM was going to be my monkey's secret weapon on that stack!

    Any thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewilman View Post
    Sooo, if it is not hepatoxic...it should not be a big deal. For example, Ergo 1AD, Derm 4AD, and RPM should not be an issue?

    RPM was going to be my monkey's secret weapon on that stack!

    Any thoughts?
    Just be careful- and be cogniscient of how the naringin effects things- as long as you know what your monkey is taking, and how everything effects said monkey (usually comes through some trial and error; always start small)- you will be OK
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    Use caution- and don't run the epi for longer than 6-8 weeks!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Just be careful- and be cogniscient of how the naringin effects things- as long as you know what your monkey is taking, and how everything effects said monkey (usually comes through some trial and error; always start small)- you will be OK
    Both my monkey and I thank you!

    My RPM is in transit and should be here on Tuesday...I think I'll take Tuesday off and wait for FedEx!
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    I've heard of grapefruit juice interacting with drugs before, possibly due to naringin content. So I did a little research, this site had some detailed stuff.
    https://secure.pharmacytimes.com/lessons/200303-02.asp

    Two interesting bits:
    1) "Originally, naringin was thought to be the main component responsible for grapefruit-drug interactions. However, studies have shown naringin to be a weak inhibitor of CYP3A4.8,9 It was also demonstrated that the administration of isolated naringin to humans, in quantities comparable to those found in grapefruit juice, did not cause the same degree of inhibition as grapefruit juice."
    2) "Additionally, the interaction appears to affect CYP3A4 in the gut wall to a much greater extent than in the liver.5"

    So
    -CYP3A4 enzyme often allows prodrugs to be activated and absorbed
    -Grapefruit juice and naringin (to lesser degree) inhibits this enzyme
    -RPM contains naringin, and could interact with drugs that have a low bioavailability (high first pass metabolism in the stomach), and are metabolized by the enzyme which naringin inhibits

    From personal experience, I find that small doses of caffeine with grapefruit heighten my sense of euphoria and minimize the jitters and anxiety. So I'm looking forward to finding out how the other stuff in RPM synergizes.

    As for using using RPM in conjunction with cycled compounds, someone with more knowledge of the compound's metabolism and bioavailability could predict any interactions than I could.

    The safest suggestion that I think might be interesting to try would be to use RPM with a pulsed cycle. Taking RPM on the days opposite to the pulsed compound, which might minimize bad interactions. And also then using RPM during post cycle therapy could be a good way to keep the workout intensity up, although I'm not sure about interactions with SERMs.

    Any ideas about whether that would be a good approach?
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    More interesting findings about possible RPM interactions with SERMs

    from http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14711 049 :
    "Tamoxifen and toremifene have a bioavailability of approximately 100%, whereas that of raloxifene is only 2%. SERMs are very highly bound to plasma proteins (>95%). Tamoxifen and toremifene are metabolised by the cytochrome P450 enzyme system, and raloxifene is metabolised by glucuronide conjugation."

    Naringin also inhibits this P450 enzyme system so might interact with tamoxifen and toremifene. However, they both have high bioavailability, suggesting that it won't be as big a problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitterplacebo View Post
    More interesting findings about possible RPM interactions with SERMs

    from CAT.INIST :
    "Tamoxifen and toremifene have a bioavailability of approximately 100%, whereas that of raloxifene is only 2%. SERMs are very highly bound to plasma proteins (>95%). Tamoxifen and toremifene are metabolised by the cytochrome P450 enzyme system, and raloxifene is metabolised by glucuronide conjugation."

    Naringin also inhibits this P450 enzyme system so might interact with tamoxifen and toremifene. However, they both have high bioavailability, suggesting that it won't be as big a problem.


    rut ro
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryingEmo View Post
    rut ro
    If that is indeed the Scooby Doo "uh oh," I don't understand what it's for. I was implying that RPM would be alright to take with most things, and the naringin content should not have a big negative effect on prosteroid/prohormone or SERMs.

    Those with prescription meds for things like blood pressure or mood might want to definitely check with a doctor, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitterplacebo View Post
    If that is indeed the Scooby Doo "uh oh," I don't understand what it's for. I was implying that RPM would be alright to take with most things, and the naringin content should not have a big negative effect on prosteroid/prohormone or SERMs.

    Those with prescription meds for things like blood pressure or mood might want to definitely check with a doctor, though.
    LOL, my bad, i misunderstood what you said.
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    A very interesting approach- it has some pro's and con's- I can give you at least a little more insight.....

    Here is what we do know:

    - Naringin has been shown to increase the bioavaliability of cholesterol-based hormones (PH's,PS's, estradiol, oral anabolic steroids), caffeine, SERMs, PDE5 inhibitors, and numerous other compounds

    - Naringin increases the half-life of cholesterol-based hormones, caffeine, SERMs, PDE5 inhibitors, and others in the body..

    So you have a compound (Naringin) that lengthens the half-life and increases the bioavaliability of certain compounds

    Taking RPM opposite the pulsed compound could be beneficial, but it is also dependant on the half-life of the pulsed compound- the half-life on most orals runs from 4-8 hours, this leads to a con- when taken in a one day on/one day off fashion, this will cause large fluctuations in blood levels of RPM, and whatever the pulsed compound is...

    There are several solutions to this:
    1. When on cycle, and if you are worried about the interaction and the compounds in RPM increasing blood levels of your SERM/pro-steroid too much- use RPM strictly as a pre-workout, and space out your dose of your PS away from the RPM (simply go by the half-life- if you work out during the day- take the dose of PS/PH at night)- and then run RPM for your PCT in an every day fashion...


    2. Reduce your dose of PS/PH- taking it with RPM will make it more effective and last longer in the body- so you will not need to take as much- save some $$$

    3. Stack RPM/PS/PH together and guage the effects by how you feel/results, and make adjustments from there- more of a trial/error type approach

    PS Post up you feedback on this- my way/my suggestions are not necessarily the gospel- I would like the hear everyone else's thoughts on this, so chime in- definitely some good feedback!!!!
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    I think those suggestions are good, but I have some concerns/ideas about some.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    A very interesting approach- it has some pro's and con's- I can give you at least a little more insight.....

    Here is what we do know:

    - Naringin has been shown to increase the bioavaliability of cholesterol-based hormones (PH's,PS's, estradiol, oral anabolic steroids), caffeine, SERMs, PDE5 inhibitors, and numerous other compounds

    - Naringin increases the half-life of cholesterol-based hormones, caffeine, SERMs, PDE5 inhibitors, and others in the body..

    So you have a compound (Naringin) that lengthens the half-life and increases the bioavaliability of certain compounds
    So this might suggest some unexpected or more pronounced toxicity issues if not careful about using RPM on a cycle or in post cycle therapy. Spacing apart the dosing of a PS/PH, oral, or SERM with that of RPM might help minimize this concern, but still keep the benefits of each about what they are regularly. Lowering dosages also could help if taking both together, but probably more risky since there's no definite answer right now on how much of an increase in bioavailability and half-life the naringin will cause.

    The original poster asked about RPM+Havoc/Epistane, which I'm guessing might be a beneficial stack without as much toxicity concerns since Havoc/Epistane is supposed to be mild (correct me if I'm wrong). But more caution is probably advisable with heavier or harsher cycles.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Taking RPM opposite the pulsed compound could be beneficial, but it is also dependant on the half-life of the pulsed compound- the half-life on most orals runs from 4-8 hours, this leads to a con- when taken in a one day on/one day off fashion, this will cause large fluctuations in blood levels of RPM, and whatever the pulsed compound is...
    I think it's been most people's experience that there isn't a big problem in fluctuating blood levels of the oral that they're pulsing. This is just how I remember reading about it, but anyone who has experienced otherwise please say so.

    As for fluctuation in blood levels of RPM, I'm not sure what could cause a concern here, other than the caffeine. Large fluctuations in that might do some damage to one's mood or give them headaches. But that could be fixed by just taking a stimulant with caffeine that does not contain naringin on the day that the other oral is being pulsed.

    Fluctuating icariin and arginine-maybe some arousal problems? But I would think it's nothing that could cause too serious of hormonal/mood concerns.
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    So this might suggest some unexpected or more pronounced toxicity issues if not careful about using RPM on a cycle or in post cycle therapy. Spacing apart the dosing of a PS/PH, oral, or SERM with that of RPM might help minimize this concern, but still keep the benefits of each about what they are regularly. Lowering dosages also could help if taking both together, but probably more risky since there's no definite answer right now on how much of an increase in bioavailability and half-life the naringin will cause.

    The original poster asked about RPM+Havoc/Epistane, which I'm guessing might be a beneficial stack without as much toxicity concerns since Havoc/Epistane is supposed to be mild (correct me if I'm wrong). But more caution is probably advisable with heavier or harsher cycles.

    Good Post!!

    As far as side effects/toxicity- yes, epi is very mild, and not very hepatotoxic- that aspect does not really worry me- but combine it with Halotestin, Dianabol, or Anadrol, that may be a completely different story


    Fluctuations in icariin levels will probably not cause any problems per se in the arousal department- it is a potent PDE5 inhibitor, but all the literature I have read on Viagra and Cialis states that if the drugs are discontinued, no erectile "issues" would result (aside from the ones the user was already having in the first place...).

    However, icariin does have other very beneficial effects outside of PDE5 inhibition, like a testosterone mimicking effect and a potent anti-catabolic/anti-glucocorticoid effect, and to fully benefit from these effects- it is best to have stable blood levels of Icariin. Remember that while RPM works right away, it also has cumulative benefits- and many of these benefits arise from keeping relatively stable blood levels, so in light of all the info I have, simply spacing your RPM doses away from the doses of other medications is probably the best thing....
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    ...Remember that while RPM works right away, it also has cumulative benefits- and many of these benefits arise from keeping relatively stable blood levels...
    Good to know, thank you for explaining, sir!

    Now in the absence of all the other drug interaction junk we talked about:
    This also means you'd recommend RPM as not strictly a pre-workout supplement, but possibly dosing a couple times of the day? I ask because the description and directions of RPM aren't clear about this. It's said to be a preworkout formula, but dosings are listed in capsules/day by bodyweight. Might want to get someone to reword those directions to make it clearer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitterplacebo View Post
    Good to know, thank you for explaining, sir!

    Now in the absence of all the other drug interaction junk we talked about:
    This also means you'd recommend RPM as not strictly a pre-workout supplement, but possibly dosing a couple times of the day? I ask because the description and directions of RPM aren't clear about this. It's said to be a preworkout formula, but dosings are listed in capsules/day by bodyweight. Might want to get someone to reword those directions to make it clearer.
    Agreed about the tag lines/directions on RPM- we (at AN) are still learning how potent this compound really is long term (amazing!!), so the more feedback I get, the more I pass it on to our customers....

    RPM is not strictly a pre-workout supplement (although I feel it is better than anything else out there for this purpose)- it can also be used for other applications as well.....

    I would recommend RPM for any of the below, because it does them all (no bs ):
    -AI inhibitor/estrogen inhibitor/overall physique hardener
    -ups free testosterone and inhibits SHBG
    -strength enhancement
    -fat loss
    -energy, intensity, and focus
    -pump and vasodilation
    -libido booster
    -recomping agent
    -agression/alpha male feeling (other products claim this- RPM will make you feel like you are 10 feet tall- effects become more pronounced with time)
    -drug-free athletic enhancement
    -lowers cortisol



    There are more benefits from RPM- these are just the ones I can think of straight off the top of my head
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
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    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........I hadn't even thought about this issue. I tried my sample yesterday before an aerobics workout (hiking up and down long steep hills).....and yes, I am on other products at the moment.

    Frankly, I don't think people should be so concered about the ph/ps as the support sups. Many people take red yeast rice and there have been isolated deaths from people combining statins and grapefruit juice (toxic dose build-up).

    As to me, no obvious ill effects. The RPM was great.....I never felt stimmed but I simply didn't want to stop exercising even when my legs were all cramped and I was dripping in sweat.
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    thanks all you guys to explain this so detailed. This forum is much better than others.
    i am thinking
    RMS mationed that its good to use rpm in the long term, does that mean we dont have to cycle it(if only use it as a pre work out supplement)

    thanks again for all you guys
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    poopypants took epi w/grapefruit juice for whole cycle. he seemed to like it alot.
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