Pea and Hordenine together, Safe, semi concerned, concerned
04-18-2007 06:07 AM
Pea and Hordenine together, Safe, semi concerned, concerned
First Off, would like to say if it sounds like Im frustrated its because I am. The reason is conflicting informations has entered my mind about this compound and whenever this happens I have questions.=) Im being realistic because we all want the best for our bodies , correct?
Is Pea and Hordenine safe to use?
Ive read in the recent Iron Man(with the huge Italian bodybuilder on the front with two girls kneeling touching his legs)No it wasnt an article pimping a product it was natural compunds that assist in weightloss. The article says, Pea is a good fat-burner compound. In the article on Pea it also said not to use with a MOI, antidepressant.
Is hordinene an anti-depressant? I havnt seen any research that says it is but I havnt really gone after this one because Ive been busy. anyone, so maybe you can save me some research.
A few facts about Hordenine
Bodybuilding.com - Hordenine Information and Product Listing! Hordenine FAQ!
so it appears Hordenine alone is safe.(Of course youll want to cycle off of it as it releases Norephin. and use something else. I think its a good idea to use one main Stim at a time, but thats just me..lets get to the main point)
We all know what PEA is. The love molecule.Makes you feel good. The chemical when your in love or eat choclate.
Without an MOA INHIBITOR Pea doesnt work nearly as well.
Now sure You can use Pea/Hord on occasion and be safe; however, who is Interested if you can use it for say a month strait with being safe?
Im a curious person and want to know how safe the body is with this combo and also if it has any long-term effects.
If I do use this combo Will be using it for a fatloss stack ..cutting down ...cutting farther than Ive ever cut.IMHO this combo is for serious cutting only.
so Summerizing Is The Pea/Hord Combo safe to use, ad possibly have positive effects for one month or possibly longer term use?
04-18-2007 06:24 AM
well i took 1 pea/hord cap and 3 leviathan with 400gm raspberry ketones and 900mg beta alanine for the first time today and im still alive so i guess is safe.
talking serious now, im really intrested on looking at the fat burning effects of pea and and leviathan fisrt time i used them also im new to beta alanine
maybe i turn this question/suggestion thread in to a log Leviathan +Pea-Hordenine +RK
04-18-2007 06:32 AM
Thanks for your input. Looking for everything available. Research and test subjects. brain scans if possible or chemical tests on dopamine levels before, during, and after use. Everything available on this subject
04-18-2007 06:41 AM
i was looking info on those subjects also but i figured out that the best thing i could do is experiment on me, since not everybody respond the same. i have noticed that i build a tolerance to some supps really fast. tomorrow im going to start with that dosage posted on my thread, im going to put some stats and start some kind of log
04-18-2007 09:44 AM
first time i saw hordenine in any appreciable amounts was in Avant Labs' H.E.A.T a great mood lifter and decent non stim fatburner.
as i remember it, hordenine did not interact with anything like regular maoi's its a lot less powerfull than selegiline. no cheese effect, no noticable overstimulation when combined with a whole host of other stims, even at 3 times heat dosage.
mood lift was wicked though. happy times
so if anything, id GUESS that hordenine's maoi effects are localised in the stomach at regular dosings.
take it slow and dont mix too many things...just in case
04-19-2007 06:10 AM
well what do you know. my pea/hord just arrived. took a pill late last night after my WO shake.
nada... even after 3 fyre pills thoughout the day.
ill try again on an empty stomach today and see.
04-20-2007 06:49 AM
I don't think Hordenine is much of a MAO inhibitor, not much at all really.
04-21-2007 03:17 AM
Phenylethylamine & Hordenine
Phenylethylamine (PEA) exerts a stimulatory effect in the brain through its effect on the beta-adrenergic and dopamine receptors. Through these mechanisms, PEA not only increases attention and activity but can also elevate mood significantly. And of course, significantly promote the use of fat for fuel.
Hordenine is included in order to make PEA orally bioavailable. It does this by inhibiting the enzyme MAO-B, and as consequence, dopamine activity is also prolonged. During dieting, dopamine is of particular importance because it is generally theorized to be the body’s means of communication between the brain and the anti-starvation hormone Leptin. Additionally, dopamine is also associated with nutrient partitioning, mood, appetite and a whole host of other biochemical functions.
so what this is saying is that when your cutting to an extreme, like low or sub body fat levels that dopamine is reduced and Pea/Hordenine can be benifical.
04-21-2007 06:46 AM
baaah, empty stomach and two pills - nothing
Originally Posted by djremix
today, empty stomach, 2 pills and 1gram dl-phenelanine(sp?) and extra pea and still nothing.
i am, a little less hungry but wtf?
04-21-2007 08:27 AM
2 caps should be WAY more then enough if its going to "hit" you.
I guess there is a lot of non-responders out there. That or perhaps people expect much more then it can deliver? For me its not stim but a mild mood booster. I feel it more when I'm doing something I like (hearing a song I really like etc). I guess I'm going to add these liquibolic caps to my next order to compare them to what I'm used to.
04-21-2007 05:48 PM
I have Pea/Hord , Pea from Np and Hord Custom, right now I might do the next eight weeks of my cut with the goal from going to thirteen percent to ten percent. ILL use nothing else but these two.(might use some Clear edge , but perhaps save it for after Pea/Hord) This is just speculation, if any research comes up that says something I think is to be researched more this stack halts. How long did you do basic cuts Rivet?
Originally Posted by Rivet
04-21-2007 05:59 PM
Basic cuts straight? Hmmm quite a few months. I still use it just not quite as much.
Originally Posted by smeton_yea
04-21-2007 06:03 PM
I don't believe hordenine holds a candle to prescription monoamine oxidase inhibitors like selegiline. Yeah, hordenine has some MAO-B inhibition properties, but nothing to be concerned about.
Hordenine is weak enough to lengthen PEA's already short half-life. Prescription MAOI's are too strong, and will cause your body not to metabolize PEA quick enough.
Think of it like when a dog eats chocolate. Dogs do not have the same body chemistry as humans, and cannot remove theobromine from their system nearly as fast. Because of this, they can get what's called 'chocolate poisoning'. In essence, prescription MAOI's will greatly decrease the amount of PEA your body can safely tolerate.
04-21-2007 06:12 PM
yeah the plan is 100 pea, 50 hordenine per day. Somedays might go higher on pea but generally the recommended dose
Pharm Pharmacol. 1989 Jun;41(6):421-3.
Deamination of hordenine by monoamine oxidase and its action on vasa deferentia of the rat.
Barwell CJ, Basma AN, Lafi MA, Leake LD.
School of Pharmacy, Portsmouth Polytechnic, Hampshire, UK.
The selectivity of the naturally occurring amine, N,N-dimethyltyramine (hordenine) for monoamine oxidase (MAO) and its action upon isolated vasa deferentia of the rat was investigated. Hordenine was deaminated by rat liver MAO with a Michaelis constant of 479 microM and maximum velocity of 128 nmol (mg protein)-1 h-1 compared with 144 microM and 482 nmol (mg protein)-1 h-1 for tyramine. Studies, with selective irreversible inhibitors of MAO, showed that hordenine was a highly selective substrate for MAO-B of liver and that it was not deaminated by the MAO-A of intestinal epithelium. In contrast to tyramine, hordenine did not produce contractions of isolated vasa deferentia. However, 25 microM hordenine potentiated contractile responses of vasa, from control animals, to submaximal doses of noradrenaline and inhibited responses to tyramine. It did not alter responses, to noradrenaline, of vasa denervated by chronic pretreatment of rats with guanethidine. Therefore, it appears that hordenine acted as an inhibitor of noradrenaline uptake, in isolated vasa deferentia. These results indicate that dietary-hordenine is unlikely to be deaminated by intestinal MAO as this is predominantly MAO-A. Consequently, it is likely to be absorbed and could affect the sympathetic nervous system, by virtue of its action as an inhibitor of noradrenaline uptake.
Hordenine is obviously not a very well reserched compound, as their are only 33 studies overall that are indexed in pubmed. Selegiline (Deprenyl) is a much more thoroughly researched compound with known MAO-B inhibiting properties
Deprenyl (also known as Jumex, Juprenil, Selegiline) is a derivative of the amino acid L-Phenylalanine. It is a prescription drug wordwide for over a dozen health conditions and is used in pet medicine.
Deprenyl Wite-up(brand name Juprenil) 5 mg 50 tablets 1 Box
- Inhibits the human brain enzyme MAO-B. MAO B increases with age and breaks down the vitally important neurotransmitter Dopamine. (Boosts Dopamine levels, Mood/Mental Energy/Motivation Enhancer)
-Boosts PhenylEthylAmine levels 1300-3500%. (Helps maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention.)
- Has Potent NeuroAntioxidant & NeuroProtective effects by raising Brain SOD levels.
1-40 mg daily with meals.
-When can I feel it?-
Works within an hour to a few days.
-What works best with it?-
Piracetam, Oxiracetam, Pea,Hydergine, Centrophenoxine, L-Huperzine A, Idebenone, Pyritinol,
So In conclusion, Deprenyl could work better with Pea since is it boosts PhenylEthylAmine levels 1300-3500%. Right now though I have some Hordenine to use.
has anyone took both for a significant amount of time and can compare clearness of effects?
04-21-2007 08:06 PM
Hmm, don't like where you're going with this, MAO inhibitors are very dangerous, to the point of killing you. Doctor's only prescribe them as a last effort against depression.
04-21-2007 08:43 PM
rollin' on dubs!
i have a similar stance on the issue.
Originally Posted by RexGrandis
smeton, we have discussed this before so you know why i wouldnt condone its use everyday. its hard to justify changing the bodies natural biochemistry to allow a substance to cross the BBB. every body function serves a purpose and monamine oxidase plays its role to break down some harmful substances so it doesnt reach the brain.
04-21-2007 09:25 PM
rollin' on dubs!
this might help...
1: J Neurochem. 1996 Oct;67(4):1532-9.Click here to read Links
Effect of long-term treatment with selective monoamine oxidase A and B inhibitors on dopamine release from rat striatum in vivo.
* Lamensdorf I,
* Youdim MB,
* Finberg JP.
Pharmacology Unit, Rappaport Faculty of Medicine, Technion, Haifa, Israel.
Acute inhibition of monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B) in the rat does not affect striatal dopamine (DA) metabolism, but chronic MAO-B inhibition with deprenyl has been reported to increase the release of striatal DA, as shown using in vitro techniques. To see whether chronic MAO-B inhibition also causes an increase in DA release in vivo, rats were treated for 21 days with either deprenyl (0.25 mg/kg), TVP-1012 [R(+)-N-propargyl-1-aminoindan mesylate; 0.05 mg/kg], an irreversible inhibitor of MAO-B that is not metabolized to amphetamines, clorgyline (0.2 mg/kg), or saline (all doses once daily by subcutaneous injection). Concentric 4-mm-long microdialysis probes were implanted in the left striatum under pentobarbital/chloral hydrate anesthesia on day 21, and microdialysate DA, 3,4, dihydroxyacetic acid (DOPAC), and 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl acetic acid (HVA) were determined in the conscious animals on day 22. Baseline levels of DA were as follows: control, 0.34 +/- 0.04 (n = 13); deprenyl, 0.88 +/- 0.10 (n = 8, p < 0.01); TVP-1012, 0.94 +/- 0.20 (n = 7, p < 0.01); clorgyline, 0.90 +/- 0.12 (n = 7, p < 0.01) pmol/20 min. Levels of DOPAC and HVA were reduced only in the clorgyline-treated group. The incremental release of DA induced by depolarizing concentration of K+ (100 mM bolus of KCl in perfusate) was significantly greater in clorgyline- and deprenyl-treated rats and elevated (nonsignificantly) in TVP-1012-treated rats. Chronic treatment with the MAO-B inhibitors reduced striatal MAO-B activity by 90%, with 15% (TVP-1012) or 40% (deprenyl) inhibition of MAO-A. Clorgyline inhibited MAO-A by 95%, with 30% inhibition of MAO-B. A single dose of deprenyl (0.25 mg/kg, 24 h before microdialysis) had no significant effect on striatal efflux of DA. The results show that DA metabolism was reduced only by clorgyline, whereas neuronal release of DA was enhanced by both MAO-A and MAO-B inhibitors on chronic administration. The enhanced DA release by chronic MAO-B inhibition does not appear to be dependent on production of amphetamine-like metabolites of the inhibitor. Possible mechanisms for the release-enhancing effect of the MAO-B inhibitors include elevation in levels of endogenous beta-phenylethylamine, or an inhibition of DA reuptake, which develops only on chronic administration, because both deprenyl and TVP-1012 have only very weak effects on amine uptake in acute experiments.
PMID: 8858937 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
so, it looks like long term use of an MAO-B inhibitor enhances DA release and acts as an dopamine reuptake inhibitor. from what i understand, cocaine and meth act in this pattern so abuse potential is high. a DA reuptake inhibitor that also inhibits DA release have slight stimulation effects and little abuse potential (sounds more like PEA/MAOI-B effects to me).
hmm, that doesnt sound right. i think i either misinterpreted the study or have my facts reversed. ive been known to do that
04-21-2007 09:46 PM
The Monoamine Oxidases, MAO-A and MAO-B, are two enzymes principally involved in catalyzing the oxidation (metabolism) of the monoamines. MAO-A is commonly thought to break down the neurochemicals serotonin and norepinephrine while MAO-B generally catalyzes the break down of dopamine and PEA (as stated above). Hordenine is included in with PEA due to its ability to inhibit MAO-B and thereby make PEA orally bioavailable thus allowing all the intriguing effects of stimulation and mood enhancement mentioned above to become a reality. As a consequence of hordenine’s MAO-B inhibition, dopamine activity is also prolonged. During dieting, dopamine is of particular importance because it is generally theorized to be the body’s means of communication between the brain and the anti-starvation hormone Leptin. Additionally, dopamine is also associated with nutrient partitioning (where the calories you consume go), mood, appetite and a whole host of other biochemical functions. Unfortunately, when you diet, dopamine also happens to decrease quite significantly, thus some means of ensuring adequate dopamine output should be paramount (hint: hordenine helps).
As if its efficacy in increasing PEA availability and dopaminergic tone weren’t enough, there is also credible evidence that hordenine not only “liberates” norepinephrine, but also inhibits its metabolism, leading to increased stimulation. As many know, norepinephrine and epinephrine collectively form the catecholamines – the means through which the popular supplement ephedrine indirectly exerts its stimulatory effect on the central nervous system and improves lipolysis (fat burning).
so from my understanding Hordenine inhibits Mao B at low rate, taking in high doses it inhibits both. it is not near as potent as Selegiline. Actually I would do Selegiline (Deprenyl) because I think it is safe and studies show it expands life-span. Ive been researching this compounds the last month or so. So In not going to come to a conclusion because more research could be done on Hordenine but it looks weak enough to get an effect but not no way strong as Selegiline (Deprenyl).
As I said numberous time I only recommend this when you are doing a serious cut, whatever a serious cut means to you, because dopamine goes down , and goes down drastically when your seriously cutting.
04-23-2007 10:00 PM
Yeah, I'm seriously considering deprenyl. Pea + hord is cool, but it still doesn't prolong the effects to any degree to make it worth it. pea lasts about 30 minutes without anything else, but it lasts about 90 minutes with hordenine. And it's stronger. It's better than 30, but still not enough for my liking. To me, since the effects are only noticable for an hour and a half, I wouldn't think it would be a very potent fat burning stack. Especially since I'm using it while bulking and I'm not having problems gaining weight. (or, at least I wouldn't be if school weren't such a ***** ). That said, it would work very well in addition to some other fat burners.
It's relatively cheap, though, so that's nice. Weird thing about PEA, though, is that it's not much of a stimulant at all, at least for me. And I've dosed up to 500 g. Great mood elevation (for the 90 minutes that it worked) but actually, it chills me out. No "stim" effects for me, although I am more alert.
It is fantastic for libido, however. I mean, it doesn't make you think about sex or give you random boners, but if you see a hot girl or look at porn, you get turned on a hell of a lot more for some reason. Maybe just cause you're in a good mood
I have ADD, and I'm thinking deprenyl would help me. Using amphetamines/methylphenidate every day is no way to go through life. It dehydrates me and makes it nearly impossible to gain weight (not to mention the worst limp **** syndrome of your life), so I rarely use it unless I have important school work to do. Thus, leaving me with nothing except my slow-processing, unable to concentrate brain on the days that I don't use them, which is most of the time.
I'd just like something to make me feel more or less normal during my "off" days. You guys think deprenyl would be a good fit for me? Perhaps in low doses, like a gram or less per day.
04-24-2007 01:55 AM
Personally havnt research deprenyl enough, and really dont plan to. Its very time consuming to really get deep and good information.I'd research it deeply and talk to people who have used it. You can find them on many of the Pea threads.
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