GLA + Endothil-Cr= Amazing stack?

[Socrates44]

Ok, GLA (gamma-linoleic acid) is an Omega-6 fatty acid. It is commonly found in Evening Primrose Oil, marketed towards women.
Seeing as I am a cheap-a$$ I have come to realize GLA is converted into Arachidonic Acid in the body. This fatty acid eventually creates leukotrienes which are bad news for asthmatics, but good news for lifters.

Now i have personally used Endothil with great success. Since endothil helps to recruit stem-cells for new muscle growth after you have tricked your body into thinking it was dying, couldnt you use the inflammatory effect of GLA to prolong and accelerate the endothils affect?

Anyone tried this? Does this sound like a killer stack to anyone else or am I a dolt?

 

[emiliozapata]

havent tried it but borage oil is an even greater source of the GLA than what EPO is

 

[Vipersg123]

endothil is literally green tomato...

 

[Socrates44]

endothil is literally green tomato...

I know, and it ticks me off... I am super skeptical of everything I try, but I got like 40 tabs from the Arnold and I tried it out. I trained to failure and it worked amazingly. I have no idea why or how, but it definitely put some mass and strength on me.

 

[cervasa1977]

I know, and it ticks me off... I am super skeptical of everything I try, but I got like 40 tabs from the Arnold and I tried it out. I trained to failure and it worked amazingly. I have no idea why or how, but it definitely put some mass and strength on me.

maybe it was you training to failure that put the mass on endothil is a joke..........

 

[emiliozapata]

Apparently black currant seed oil is the stuff to get for GLA content, interesting that it converts to ARA in the body, i wonder how efficient the conversion is, mg for mg.

 

[Socrates44]

Yea because if something in that endothil actually works (and im not claiming miracles) and it does what it says, if you induce inflammation and work out to failure, you could be seeing some serious mass gains.

 

[thesinner]

I could've sworn ARA was an essential fatty acid, meaning you're body cannot produce it.

 

[Socrates44]

GTE (Green Tomato Extract) has been shown to cause angiogenesis in small quanities. Angiogenesis is the creating of new blood vessels. Endothil, gets its name from endothelial, the endothelial cells are those that line the interior of the artery. These cells contain certain receptors called alpha 7-nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (a-7ACR) for short. These receptors are the target of the GTE. When they interact, the a-7ACR uses the GTE as its substrate and activates a cascade that causes angiogenesis. However, this will only take place under hypoxia or inflammation (commonly found in muscle wasting diseases such ALS and Muscular Dystrophy). Side note: endothil was actually made for these disorders.


Like I said before, I am an endo and I can put on muscle really easy. After two weeks of using this stuff I put on 5-7lbs and my strength shot up. I can't wait to try it again with some GLA.

 

[Socrates44]

I could've sworn ARA was an essential fatty acid, meaning you're body cannot produce it.

Your body can only produce omega 3 fatty acids. However, since you are bringing in an exogenous omega 6, your body can transduce GLA into AA, giving you the inflammatory properties.

 

[thesinner]

Good luck socrates, let us know how this pans out.

 

[Wordz_Worf]

Interesting stuff.

 

[Aeternitatis]

I have come to realize GLA is converted into Arachidonic Acid in the body. This fatty acid eventually creates leukotrienes which are bad news for asthmatics, but good news for lifters.

Unfortunately for you, it doesn't actually work that way.

The only way to utilize the increased anabolism from arachidonic acid is to consume arachidonic acid. May I suggest X-Factor?

 

[Socrates44]

Unfortunately for you, it doesn't actually work that way.

The only way to utilize the increased anabolism from arachidonic acid is to consume arachidonic acid. May I suggest X-Factor?

Actually GLA is transduced down into AA and Dihomo-gamma-linoleic acid and I think EPA correct?

Now taking a pro-inflammatory agent like AA is one of the most absurd things I can think of. You are turning on Thromboxane which causes a myriad of problems (increased vasoconstriction, increases platelet aggregation which increases the risk of embolies and clots). With GLA you are getting the slight inflammatory period of AA, but then having it wiped clean by the EPA and DHLA (merely a contraindication of pro-inflammatory and anti-inflammatory). While I am not bashing your product, I believe people need to be truly informed about AA before it is widely accepted as an everyday supplement.

Arachidonic Acid
1.)platelet aggregation
2.)Vasoconstriction
3.)Leukotriene synthesis (causes bronchoconstriction)

The GLA will have the slight inflammatory effect of AA with the excellent health benefits of Omega-3 fatty acids.


Also, if I am not mistaken, you probably reccommend that people not use Omega-3 supplementation while using X-Factor correct?

 

[Aeternitatis]

I'm not arguing the metabolism of GLA at all. What I'm saying is that the theory doesn't work out in the real world.

Have you used XF before? I think it's important that you have in order to compare the results. But I'm willing to wager that not only will GLA NOT provide the anabolism associated with X-Factor supplementation, but it may be counterproductive at such high doses.

I encourage you to try this out though. Preferably without any other supplements to confound the results.

 

[Aeternitatis]

Actually GLA is transduced down into AA and Dihomo-gamma-linoleic acid and I think EPA correct?

Now taking a pro-inflammatory agent like AA is one of the most absurd things I can think of. You are turning on Thromboxane which causes a myriad of problems (increased vasoconstriction, increases platelet aggregation which increases the risk of embolies and clots). With GLA you are getting the slight inflammatory period of AA, but then having it wiped clean by the EPA and DHLA (merely a contraindication of pro-inflammatory and anti-inflammatory). While I am not bashing your product, I believe people need to be truly informed about AA before it is widely accepted as an everyday supplement.

Arachidonic Acid
1.)platelet aggregation
2.)Vasoconstriction
3.)Leukotriene synthesis (causes bronchoconstriction)

I guess you haven't seen the studies showing AA supplementation at 4.7 grams per day for 50 days showing no signs of the above markers.

 

[Socrates44]

I guess you haven't seen the studies showing AA supplementation at 4.7 grams per day for 50 days showing no signs of the above markers.

No I have not, but if you have the link I would enjoy the read. I am a pharmacologist first, lifter second, and I have been wanting to hear good news about AA for a long time from a reliable second-party.

Not saying you arent reliable, but you may be a little biased

:study:

 

[Aeternitatis]

No I have not, but if you have the link I would enjoy the read. I am a pharmacologist first, lifter second, and I have been wanting to hear good news about AA for a long time from a reliable second-party.

Not saying you arent reliable, but you may be a little biased

:study:

Sure, I'll go find it. It's what we based our 50 day cycle recommendation on.

 

[Aeternitatis]

Okay, here's this for now. Still looking for that other one. I don't think I saved it with my regular X-Factor info, so it might take me a while to find it.


"... adding 1.5 g/d of dietary AA for 50 d to a typical Western diet containing about 200 mg of AA produces no observable physiological changes in blood coagulation and thrombotic tendencies in healthy, adult males compared to the unsupplemented diet. " - Lipids. 1997 Apr;32(4):421-5

"AA (1.5 g/d) was incorporated into the diet of six men from day 16 to 65... the lack of any adverse effects on immune response indicates that supplementation with AA may be done safely when needed for other health reasons.' - Lipids. 1997 Apr;32(4):449-56.

"Normal healthy male volunteers (n = 10) were fed diets (high-AA) containing 1.7 g/d of arachidonic acid (AA) for 50 d... Dietary AA had no statistically significant effect on the blood cholesterol levels, lipoprotein distribution, or apoprotein levels. ... the results demonstrate that dietary AA does not alter blood lipids or lipoprotein levels or have obvious adverse health effects at this level and duration of feeding. " - Lipids. 1997 Apr;32(4):427-33.

 

[kdent7]

GLA -> DGLA (Anti-Inflammatory conversions).

DGLA -> AA (Pro-Inflammatory conversions).

DGLA is metabolized to AA via Delta-5 Desaturase. Delta-5 is the enzyme used for both conversion to AA and also for further conversion of EPA to anti-inflammatory compounds.

Delta-5 is preferential (binding affinity maybe) towards further EPA conversions as opposed to DGLA -> AA conversion.

Additionally Delta-5 is inhibited by Sesamin intake. (further Anti-Inflammation).

Am I going to source all of this...not a chance, laziness abound :head:

I'm currently attempting to fight inflammation with a stack of Super EPA (NOW), GLA (Borage, EPO), Sesamin and Curcumin Extract w/ Bioperine.

 

[Socrates44]

you had mentioned 4.7 grams earlier, where this is stating 1.5 plus 200mg, was that a typo?

 

[Aeternitatis]

you had mentioned 4.7 grams earlier, where this is stating 1.5 plus 200mg, was that a typo?

Yes, dammit! That's like the third time I've done that. I meant 1.7 grams. I don't know why I'm always typing 4 instead of 1.

"Normal healthy male volunteers (n = 10) were fed diets (high-AA) containing 1.7 g/d of arachidonic acid (AA) for 50 d... Dietary AA had no statistically significant effect on the blood cholesterol levels, lipoprotein distribution, or apoprotein levels. ... the results demonstrate that dietary AA does not alter blood lipids or lipoprotein levels or have obvious adverse health effects at this level and duration of feeding. " - Lipids. 1997 Apr;32(4):427-33.

 

[thesinner]

You're using the numberpad......aren't you?

 

[Socrates44]

I was about to say, I have read where over 3 showed negatives, so I was looking forward to reading about it.lol. That low of a dosage shows the anabolic effects?

Have any free samples of it?

 

[Aeternitatis]

You're using the numberpad......aren't you?

Haha, that'll do it! :icon_lol:

Have any free samples of it?

No, we don't bother with it. X-Factor needs to load in muscle tissue for at least 1 week for full effects to kick in. Giving out free samples would not show people how well it actually works.

 

[Socrates44]

...any free bottles?? :icon_lol:

 

[Aeternitatis]

Sure they're free... if you can afford it: X Factor (100 softgels) By Molecular Nutrition

:hammer: :head: :woohoo: :bruce1:

 

[kdent7]

Addendum to Previous Post

My previous post above contained some inaccurate info.

Delta-5 acts in the conversion of upstream fatty acids to EPA, not directly upon EPA itself.

<Please Resume>

 

[Mannypolarbear]

Can we all just get back to the fact that Endothil is a joke??? Endothil actually comes with a 7 day workout routine that they insist you follow while you are on their product. Someone is making a lot of money off of a copied workout plan and some Green Tomato extract... Don't get scammed, do your research on the ingredients before buying.

 

[Socrates44]

Can we all just get back to the fact that Endothil is a joke??? Endothil actually comes with a 7 day workout routine that they insist you follow while you are on their product. Someone is making a lot of money off of a copied workout plan and some Green Tomato extract... Don't get scammed, do your research on the ingredients before buying.

I have done quite a bit of research on it and it has worked very well for me. The GTE really helped me pack on mass, I was skeptical but it worked great. I would insist, if you have never tried a product to not diss it. It comes off as arrogant

 

[Mannypolarbear]

I have done quite a bit of research on it and it has worked very well for me. The GTE really helped me pack on mass, I was skeptical but it worked great. I would insist, if you have never tried a product to not diss it. It comes off as arrogant

Hmmmm... That is really wierd.. I HAVE tried Endothil before. Before you call someone out, why don't you do a "Bit" more research. How much "Mass" did you pack on?? Did you change your eating and lifting habits while you were on it? What "Bit" of research did you do on it?? I definately can't find anything on Green Tomato extract at Wikipedia.org, and i'm finding it even harder to find a reliable ( Unbiased ) website that actually puts their word behind this anti-oxidant (for muscle building purposes). However, I did find a website where you can buy some Shower Gells and what not with that ingredient in it. Enjoy : Tomato Extract - Compare Prices, Reviews and Buy at NexTag - Price - Review
Can you send me a link with all of the extensive research that you did on this product before you dropped $50 + dollars on? I know Green Tomato Extract is a potent anti-oxidant, but since when do they produce muscle in large amounts??

Here is a list of other arrogant people like myself that have no idea what we are talking about.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/44803-endothil-cr.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/35134-endothil-cr-double.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/32484-endothil.html

 

[Socrates44]

I did change my lifting habits, i went to failure as advised. I probably put on 15lbs in a 30 day supply, I was increasing caloric intake like crazy though. I am roughly at 250 when im at my lowest, and Im an extreme endo, so 15 lbs in a month isnt that extra-ordinary.

I have done some research in my lab for pharmaceutics. My lab professor was pretty interested because his wife suffers from muscular dystrophy. We had done a light muscle biopsy of a couple "knock-out" mice, and while the results were not too extraordinary under similar conditions the vascular diffusion of blood oxygen seemed increased.

Now I thought I put my reply in a very nice and gentlemen like format, and I will continue to. Some people are non-responders like yourself, but if it works for someone (who obviously has done a little more research than you) why come into the forum and bash it. Im not going to explain how endothil works, read the above posts, and since this is an opinionated forum I will stop here.

 

[Mannypolarbear]

I did change my lifting habits, i went to failure as advised. I probably put on 15lbs in a 30 day supply, I was increasing caloric intake like crazy though. Now I thought I put my reply in a very nice and gentlemen like format, and I will continue to. Some people are non-responders like yourself, but if it works for someone (who obviously has done a little more research than you) why come into the forum and bash it. Im not going to explain how endothil works, read the above posts, and since this is an opinionated forum I will stop here.

I believe you are the one that said I hadn't even tried the product. Why don't you ask before you assume?? Also, you're not taking into account the fact that you could very well put on 15 lbs. by changing your workout and increasing caloric intake like "crazy" anyways. Don't tell me what I have and haven't done research on, I believe in my last post, I asked you for some concrete research, and all you have for me is a so called " muscle Biopsy" in which you explain to me exactly what is also said in the endothil advertisement. I tried to do as much research on the subject as I could, but I find it very odd that this amazing product doesn't have too much info on it, and it has been out for a few years... All I ask from you is some solid proof that your gains were directly associated with Endothil, NOT your Crazy intake of calories, and NOT your workout routine. I'm not arrogant by any means, I just like to have science back up claims made by companies. Is that such a problem??

 

[Socrates44]

Structure and function of two VDAC isoforms purified from Fabaceae seed mitochondria H. A , E. G , R. W , J.-M. R F.

Enjoy the read..

 

[Mannypolarbear]

Structure and function of two VDAC isoforms purified from Fabaceae seed mitochondria H. A , E. G , R. W , J.-M. R F.

Enjoy the read..

Once again.... I asked for solid proof that shows Green Tomato extract is directly related to large mucle growth in humans... Not the structural change in a ripening tomato etc. etc. I hate arguing with people over stupid subjects as such, but you are not impressing anyone with your jargon filled "Beneficial Information" that you "Googled" right after you read my last post. You stated " this is an opinionatated site", yes, you are correct in saying that. It is my personal opinion through PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, RESEARCH, and LISTENING TO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE SAID, that this product does not work to the extent of their claims. That is what I stated, and you have your right to criticize me, but don't criticize me just for the sake of arguing. Once again.... do you think that there were other factors that greatly contributed to your "MASS" gains other than Endothil??



Does anyone have a view on this subject???

 

[Aeternitatis]

I have no doubt that the ingredients in Endothil are effective for various things. But when you have a proprietary blend of a whopping 9 milligrams, it makes you wonder. :think:

Proprietary Phytonutrient Blend 9mg
Green Tomato SE †
Grape Seed SE †
Green Tea SE †
Quercetin †
Rutin

And it's claiming SE... but standardized for what?

 

[Socrates44]

Ok dude I have been nice. I made this forum because endothil worked for me, if it doesnt work for you, give your 2 cents and shut the hell up. I gave you a study which was un-biased and it talked about the angiogenic properties of GTE (however brief, its mentioned in page 60-61). If you dont like endothil thats fine, bash it and leave. All you are doing is trying to make a point that the product didnt work for you there for it must be a scam. I never purchased my endothil, I got samples from the Arnold, I tried it and even if it was all a placebo effect IT WORKED FOR ME. I dont have to show you months of studies on the subject, its a forum about a new product, get a life.

 

[Aeternitatis]

Chill man. I've tried it too and it didn't work for me. This is just a discussion and some of us have differing opinions.

BTW, Endothil isn't really new.

 

[Socrates44]

I know it isnt really new, but it is new to a lot of people because it isnt a widely known about supplement. Ive been under a lot of stress lately with school, work and working on getting accepted into a pharmd. school. So Im sorry I snapped on you manny, its just I created this log because it worked for me and I was trying to get other peoples opinions on whether GLA would work with it.

 

[beast69]

I don't post here often, but I jsut had to comment on this. Endothil does (or at least used to) provide their "study" on their website, which is where they make their claims from. If you read it, and read it carefully, you will realize that alot of people, including the original poster in this thread, are making SUBSTANTIALLY larger gains in...well...everything, than the participants in the study.

here's a post i mad on another board some time ago about the matter...

These excerpts are from the Research Summary on the product's OWN WEBSITE, so keep that in mind

the amount of weight bench
pressed increased by 10 lbs. in subjects receiving ECR’s core compound
compared to an increase of 5 lbs. in subjects receiving placebo amount of
weight leg pressed increased 70 lbs. in the experimental group versus 20 lbs. in placebo treated subjects.

It appears that the experimental group recieved a 100% upper body strength increase in comparison the placebo group and NOT in comparison to their original strength as the product write-up would lead you to believe. The same holds true for lower body strength increases.

Keep in mind that users of this product were to change their program to that described in the product info. So...radically altering your training program for a 6-week period showed a mere 10 lb increase in a 6-week time period? doesn't sound all that extraordinary to me

The treatment group experienced a significant increase in biceps circumference that was more than four times that of the placebo group, who experienced almost no increase in biceps circumference

let's do some basic math here

placebo group = near 0 increase
experimental group = 4 x placebo group
= 4 x 0
=0

In other words, both groups recieved a near zero increase in bicep circumference. Unfortunately, the summary did not provide a definition of "near zero"

There were no significant changes between the two groups in quadriceps circumference, % body fat, % lean body mass, weight, or body mass index.

I think this part pretty much speaks for itself


Last comments
-I knew this was a scam before i even started lokoing into it. the only reason i did was due to a) a stubborn exercise science teacher who couldn't find any negative information about this product, and therefore took it for face value; b) a friend who believed the stubborn exercise science teacher; and c) the fact that the product write-up in and of itself is VERY misleading. Basically, as stated in Novex Biotech's OWN product summary, one can see that this product produced near zero results for the product testers, aside from VERY modest strength increases, which can be expected when one switches up their training program

have a nice day

 

[Mannypolarbear]

I know it isnt really new, but it is new to a lot of people because it isnt a widely known about supplement. Ive been under a lot of stress lately with school, work and working on getting accepted into a pharmd. school. So Im sorry I snapped on you manny, its just I created this log because it worked for me and I was trying to get other peoples opinions on whether GLA would work with it.

It's cool man, don't even worry about it. I just hate those damn companies that come out with some crappy product, and charge waaay too much for it. It reminds me of MuscleTech. Props to you for gaining mass however you did it, that is still an accomplishment. :head: I would just hate to see a bunch of people that aren't necessarily educated too much in this area buy Endothil because they saw the gains that you got and expected the same. The worst thing you can do to a person is take their money, get their hopes up, then after they bust their ass for a month in the gym they don't see any results. Goodluck with everything man.