Increasing dopamine

[Flaw]

What do you feel is the best supplemental ways to increase dopamine?

I've heard of the combinations of D/L-Phenylalanine with deprenyl or tyrosine with deprenyl. Deprenyl can be quite expensive. Wondering if there's some other cost effective combinations.

Any other maoi's besides deprenyl that would work? thanks

 

[delton]

What do you feel is the best supplemental ways to increase dopamine?

I've heard of the combinations of D/L-Phenylalanine with deprenyl or tyrosine with deprenyl. Deprenyl can be quite expensive. Wondering if there's some other cost effective combinations.

Any other maoi's besides deprenyl that would work? thanks

USPLab's Powerfull is a direct dopamine supplement (herbal source of dopamine). It is not an MAOI. I've been using it for a month now, and the effects are striking -- so much so that I'm concerned about long-term adjustment of my natural dopamine levels. I'll try a two-week stop on it soon and see if their is a noticeable rebound. Anyway, if cost is a concern, you can get Powerfull in bulk from Nutraplanet. Some care is required in taking this... it must be taken on an empty stomach, 30 minutes before eating. And it should be spread out in multiple doses. The suggested dosing is three times per day, with the last dose at bedtime. On workout days, one of the doses should be 30 minutes before exercise (if that can be on an empty stomach... Powerfull is really not effective otherwsie).

Deprenyl is an MAO-B inhibitor, and so it's a lot more complicated than simply boosting dopamine. There are other benefits with deprenyl, having to do with neuro-protective effects, so I'm not knocking it. But it is expensive, difficult to obtain, and potentially more complex in its spectrum of effects.

 

[Ziricote]

Hmm, L-Dopa? ;P
USPLabs "1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzol(3,4 diol)" aka 1-c is the main active in USPLabs PowerFULL responsible for the GH raising effect. Either PowerFULL or 1-c will work well for increasing GH via Dopamine.

PowerFULL@Nutra
«Genera Bulk 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzol(3,4 diol) - Discount Bodybuilding - Nutritional Supplements

 

[Flaw]

cool.. will the older version of powerfull work as well?

PowerFULL [130 Capsules] - $34.99$14.99

or this version does not contain the ingredients in the new one?

 

[Flaw]

USPLab's Powerfull is a direct dopamine supplement (herbal source of dopamine). It is not an MAOI. I've been using it for a month now, and the effects are striking -- so much so that I'm concerned about long-term adjustment of my natural dopamine levels. I'll try a two-week stop on it soon and see if their is a noticeable rebound. Anyway, if cost is a concern, you can get Powerfull in bulk from Nutraplanet. Some care is required in taking this... it must be taken on an empty stomach, 30 minutes before eating. And it should be spread out in multiple doses. The suggested dosing is three times per day, with the last dose at bedtime. On workout days, one of the doses should be 30 minutes before exercise (if that can be on an empty stomach... Powerfull is really not effective otherwsie).

cool.. do post the results. Very interested in powerfull now. I've used phenibut with some noticable effects on dopamine but it's effects are mainly on increasing gaba. This led me to believe that not only were my gaba receptors weak but possibly my dopamine if just that small amount of phenylalanine.. worked. Haven't tried phenylalanine on it's own. Have tried tyrosine with some noticable effects but i'm looking for something a little more serious but don't wanna go the illegal route. thanks for the info.

 

[Ziricote]

The old version works nicely, I still have ~10 bottles of it that I look forward to using before going onto the new version. I'm not sure I'd say it's as good as the new version but I haven't tried the new yet.

 

[Flaw]

The old version works nicely, I still have ~10 bottles of it that I look forward to using before going onto the new version. I'm not sure I'd say it's as good as the new version but I haven't tried the new yet.

sweet. I think the bulk powder from nutraplanet looks like the best deal. Is there a tolerance to this stuff that you have noticed?

 

[WannaBeHulk]

why do you want to increase dopamine? have you gone through testing to determine neurotransmitter levels? are you depressed?

anyways, besides supps, this can be achieved through diet as well. i know brocolli and bananas have dopamine boosting effects. i know there are many others but im drawing a blank right now.

 

[delton]

cool.. do post the results. Very interested in powerfull now. I've used phenibut with some noticable effects on dopamine but it's effects are mainly on increasing gaba. This led me to believe that not only were my gaba receptors weak but possibly my dopamine if just that small amount of phenylalanine.. worked. Haven't tried phenylalanine on it's own. Have tried tyrosine with some noticable effects but i'm looking for something a little more serious but don't wanna go the illegal route. thanks for the info.

As I said, I've been using it for just one month. In the first two weeks, I noticed some definite tension/alertness that was different than caffeine or ephedrine. This has subsided. I still notice two major effects: 1) Pronounced effect on my sleep... much deeper, and 2) more intense and focused workouts. The sleep effect was more pronounced in the beginning, but it's still there. As recommended, I take a double dose now before exercise, and before sleep.

It's too early to say about the possible GH boost effects... I do notice some body recomposition happening with some new muscle, but I'm also taking Anabolic Pump (muscle-specific insulin mimic), so it's hard to say.

I haven't noticed a testosterone boosting effect. This may be age related (I'm 41). I get more effect from things like Activate, Rebound Reloaded, and (especially) clomid.

Anyway, the effect is very real and noticeable. Just take care to follow the dosing directions (empty stomach, 30 minutes before eating, spread out through the day, before exercise and before sleep).

 

[Sir Savage]

HEAT raises dopamine, among other things. You might look into it when it's back in stock.

 

[Jim Sadler]

HEAT raises dopamine, among other things. You might look into it when it's back in stock.

Is it coming back in its original formula? Are you guys releasing another "fat burner" in parallel?

I always liked HEAT. No caffeine makes it easy to use in conjunction with other products. (Like AMP.)

 

[Sir Savage]

Yeah, HEAT is coming back. We're just out right now.

And yeah, a new thermo/stimulant will be released in parallel.

 

[Vitruvian]

You know I have to chime in....

Applied Nutriceutical's IGF-2

Quote from AN's technical writeup:
L-Dopa and its effects on Testosterone and Human Growth Hormone
Another important chemical mechanism of IGF-2™ is L-Dopa-induced growth hormone (GH) release, and increased testosterone secretion through prolactin inhibition. Prolactin is a hormone that regulates testosterone production, and too much of it can suppress the secretion of gonadotropins, which hinders testosterone production. By inhibiting prolactin, IGF-2 increases endogenous testosterone levels dramatically. The variety of Mucuna Pruriens used in IGF-2™ is standardized to 25% L-Dopa, delivering large amounts of this active ingredient per capsule (27). L-Dopa is a precursor to Dopamine, a powerful biogenic amine, and L-Dopa is the only method of transport of Dopamine through the blood-barrier(3,15,16). Dopamine is a potent GH and testosterone agonist, meaning that dopamine inhibits prolactin release and hypothalamic somatostatin secretion, which allows for a greater stimulatory effect of growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH) and secretion of testosterone by the testes. GHRH signals the pituitary to release GH, a polypeptide hormone produced by the somatotropic cells of the anterior pituitary (3,11,12,14,15,16). GH stimulates skeletal muscle cells to grow and, in some cases, divide. Acting directly, GH mobilizes fats from fat depots and decreases the rate of glucose intake and metabolism. In mammals, GH exerts most of its anabolic effects through being mediated by IGF; IGF is also known as somatomedin, which stimulates the uptake of amino acids from the blood and into skeletal muscle, providing for a variety of anabolic effects in the human body. This is important, as IGF-2™ provides the biochemical stimulus for the aforementioned muscle-building processes.

 

[Flaw]

Very informative post. I could definetly use a dopamine kick.

 

[WannaBeHulk]

You know I have to chime in....

Applied Nutriceutical's IGF-2

Quote from AN's technical writeup:
L-Dopa and its effects on Testosterone and Human Growth Hormone
Another important chemical mechanism of IGF-2™ is L-Dopa-induced growth hormone (GH) release, and increased testosterone secretion through prolactin inhibition. Prolactin is a hormone that regulates testosterone production, and too much of it can suppress the secretion of gonadotropins, which hinders testosterone production. By inhibiting prolactin, IGF-2 increases endogenous testosterone levels dramatically. The variety of Mucuna Pruriens used in IGF-2™ is standardized to 25% L-Dopa, delivering large amounts of this active ingredient per capsule (27). L-Dopa is a precursor to Dopamine, a powerful biogenic amine, and L-Dopa is the only method of transport of Dopamine through the blood-barrier(3,15,16). Dopamine is a potent GH and testosterone agonist, meaning that dopamine inhibits prolactin release and hypothalamic somatostatin secretion, which allows for a greater stimulatory effect of growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH) and secretion of testosterone by the testes. GHRH signals the pituitary to release GH, a polypeptide hormone produced by the somatotropic cells of the anterior pituitary (3,11,12,14,15,16). GH stimulates skeletal muscle cells to grow and, in some cases, divide. Acting directly, GH mobilizes fats from fat depots and decreases the rate of glucose intake and metabolism. In mammals, GH exerts most of its anabolic effects through being mediated by IGF; IGF is also known as somatomedin, which stimulates the uptake of amino acids from the blood and into skeletal muscle, providing for a variety of anabolic effects in the human body. This is important, as IGF-2™ provides the biochemical stimulus for the aforementioned muscle-building processes.

ive wondered this for awhile and it seems appropriate to ask here. would L-dopa desensitize your receptors or would it help upregulate them? if your body becomes accustomed to obtaining L-dopa through supplementation, wouldnt this hinder the natural production of dopamine?

 

[Vitruvian]

ive wondered this for awhile and it seems appropriate to ask here. would L-dopa desensitize your receptors or would it help upregulate them? if your body becomes accustomed to obtaining L-dopa through supplementation, wouldnt this hinder the natural production of dopamine?

Darn good concern and question Hulk.
I'm holding off for rms80 to give you a complete answer.

Hang in there.........

 

[rms80]

ive wondered this for awhile and it seems appropriate to ask here. would L-dopa desensitize your receptors or would it help upregulate them? if your body becomes accustomed to obtaining L-dopa through supplementation, wouldnt this hinder the natural production of dopamine?

Short answer- I would cycle on and off any type of product that uses mucuna pruriens, simply b/c rate-limiting enzymes will reduce the effectiveness of the compound over time, and the conversion of the herb to it "desired" characteristics. I found a couple animal studies that state that L-Dopa administration does not change the DA (dopamine receptor) and its function, at least in the short term- on a few weeks/months type scale.


Neuropharmacology. 1984 May;23(5):545-53. Links
Behavioural and biochemical alterations in the function of dopamine receptors following repeated administration of L-DOPA to rats.

* Hall MD,
* Cooper DR,
* Fleminger S,
* Rupniak NM,
* Jenner P,
* Marsden CD.

Rats received L-DOPA (40 or 200 mg/kg, i.p.) for 14 days, followed by a 3 day withdrawal period. Spontaneous locomotor activity was not altered by repeated administration of L-DOPA. Rats treated with L-DOPA (200 mg/kg) showed identical locomotor hypoactivity in response to small doses of apomorphine when compared to saline-treated control animals. Similarly, the formation of dopamine-stimulated cyclic AMP in homogenates of striatum was unaltered by repeated administration of L-DOPA. Repeated administration of L-DOPA for 14 days in the rat appears to result in altered behaviour mediated by dopamine in the absence of any apparent change in the function of dopamine receptors in the striatum.


NAC and melatonin seem to disallow the auto-oxidation of dopamine and inhibit any type of receptor damage/downregulation


J Pineal Res. 2006 Apr;40(3):204-13.Click here to read Links
Endogenous melatonin protects L-DOPA from autoxidation in the striatal extracellular compartment of the freely moving rat: potential implication for long-term L-DOPA therapy in Parkinson's disease.

There is evidence for receptor downregulation in Parkinson's patients, but the researchers have been unable to determine whether this is from L-Dopa, or from the disease- however, when dopaminergic therapy is withdrawn in Parkinson's patients, there seems to be a renewed proliferation of these downregulated receptors- so there could be possible downregulation, but the receptors actually regenerate themselves. This is all hypothetical, because all I am finding is L-Dopa administration studies with Parkinson's, which is a diseased state- I have not found any studies on healthy individuals- I will look around some more

Certain compounds such as cocaine, estradiol, MDMA (xtc), MDA, and manganese will all cause dopamine receptor down-regulation as well, in healthy subjects

 

[WannaBeHulk]

rms80, thanks for the info. yeah, i looked into it and it seems that L-dopa is a dopamine agonist so, if anything, it should increase the number of receptors and make them more sensitive. for personal feedback, i didnt feel any kind of rebound effect with USPLabs powerfull either. it is still important to maintain a healthy balance so i agree with your statement regarding cycling.

by any chance do you know which of the five dopamine receptors this effects? all of them maybe?

 

[anabolicrhino]

There was a movie Awakenings (1990) in which Robin Williams played DR OLIVER SACKShttp:Oliver Sacks . Welcome to the Official Website, who had success in treating catatonic patients with L-DOPA. The movies ends sadly as the most successful patient played by ROBERT DENIRO slow degenerates back into a catatonic state. This was shown to be from the down regulation of the receptor affinity. The receptors became complacent to the antagonists. So even though the were new receptors being regenerated, they too eventually became less responsive. I have had success with POWERFUL in 2 and 6 week cycles.

 

[delton]

Wow, I really appreciate reading all this. As I posted above, I've been doing Powerfull for about four weeks now, and I've been concerned about long-term effects from continual L-Dopa supplementation. I'll give it another two weeks and then take a break for at least three weeks.

At the end of Awakenings, Deniro gives a very accurate depiction of possible side effects from continuous dosing with large quantities of L-Dopa. But these levels are probably 50x greater than what we're talking about here. Still, it makes ya' think...

 

[rms80]

rms80, thanks for the info. yeah, i looked into it and it seems that L-dopa is a dopamine agonist so, if anything, it should increase the number of receptors and make them more sensitive. for personal feedback, i didnt feel any kind of rebound effect with USPLabs powerfull either. it is still important to maintain a healthy balance so i agree with your statement regarding cycling.

by any chance do you know which of the five dopamine receptors this effects? all of them maybe?

Dopamine has 5 subtypes of receptors- D1, D2, D3, D4, and D5. There are also two families of receptors: D1-like family (D1 and D5), and the D2-like family (D2,D3, and D4).

Cocaine, methamphetamine, and other types of euphoric drugs primarily activate the D1.

I also found this:
D1/D2 DOPAMINE RECEPTOR STIMULATION BY L-DOPA
A[14C]-2-DEOXYGLUCOSE AUTORADIOGRAPHIC STUDY
JOEL. M. TRUGMAN, CHRISTINA L. JAMES and G. FREDERICK WOOTEN

In rats with unilateral 6-hydroxydopamine substantia nigra lesions, the effects of selective D1 and D2 dopamine receptor antagonists on L-DOPA-induced rotation and regional cerebral glucose utilization (RCGU) changes were examined. Contralateral rotation induced by L-DOPA(25mg/kg) was effectively blocked by D1(SCH 23390, 1.0mg/kg)and D2(eticlopride, 2.0 mg/kg) antagonists, in combination, but not by either antagonist alone. This suggests that in the dopamine-depleted rat, L-DOPA administration results in the stimulation of both D1and D2 receptor systems, each capable of independently eliciting a full motor response. L-DOPA altered RCGU in the following brain regions ipsilateral to the lesion: entopeduncular nucleus (EP, +105%), substantia nigra pars reticulata (SNr, +121%), subthalamic nucleus(STN, +32%), deep layers of the superior colliculus (DLSC, +35%), and laternal habenula nucleus (LHN, -52%). The effects in the EP and SNr were blocked completely by D1 antagonist pretreatment but only partially attenuated by D2 antagonist pretreatment, indicating the critical dependence of these changes on D1 stimulation. In contrast, combined D1 and D2 antagonist pretreatment, but neither drug alone, blocked the L-DOPA- induced increases in the STN and DLSC. The effects of L-DOPA in the LHN were attenuated by either SCH 23390 or eticlopride, and blocked completely by the antagonist combination. These results provide evidence that dopamine formed following the decarboxylation of L-DOPA stimulates both D1 and D2 receptors in vivo and that stimulation of each receptor contributes uniquely to its physiological effects. Neural mechanisms of action of L-DOPA are discussed in the context of these findings.

This study states that D2 and D3 (D2-like family) receptors can down-regulate dopamine synthesis, but that D4 does not. So by process of elimination, D1, D2, and D3 definitely have a role in down regulation of some kind, but I have seen contradictory reports about D4.

Inhibition of dopamine synthesis by dopamine D2 and D3 but not D4 receptors

CM O'Hara, A Uhland-Smith, KL O'Malley and RD Todd

Department of Psychiatry, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri, USA.

The goal of the current study was to determine which of the D2-like receptors (D2, D3 or D4) are involved in autoreceptor regulation of dopamine synthesis. We have derived a model system utilizing a mouse mesencephalic cell line, MN9D, which both synthesizes and releases dopamine, to characterize the modulation of tyrosine hydroxylase activity, the rate limiting enzyme in the conversion of tyrosine to dopamine, by the D2-like receptors. Previously, we have shown that stimulation of D2 and D3, but not D4, dopamine receptors transfected into MN9D cells inhibited the release of dopamine. In the current study, we show that quinpirole stimulation of transfected D2 and D3, but not D4, dopamine receptors inhibited K+-stimulated tyrosine hydroxylase activity in a pertussis toxin-sensitive manner, strongly suggesting G-protein coupling as a mechanistic pathway. The D2 receptor effect could be maintained for at least 60 min, whereas the D3 receptor effect desensitized. Treatment with 10 microM forskolin, which raises cyclic AMP levels or with 100 nM okadaic acid, a potent phosphatase inhibitor, had no effect on the D2-or D3-mediated inhibition, suggesting that these effects may be independent of both cyclic AMP- and okadaic acid-sensitive phosphatase activity. Taken together, these data confirm the hypothesis that dopamine D2 and D3 receptors can perform dual roles in autoreceptor regulation.

 

[John Smeton]

Wow, I really appreciate reading all this. As I posted above, I've been doing Powerfull for about four weeks now, and I've been concerned about long-term effects from continual L-Dopa supplementation. I'll give it another two weeks and then take a break for at least three weeks.

At the end of Awakenings, Deniro gives a very accurate depiction of possible side effects from continuous dosing with large quantities of L-Dopa. But these levels are probably 50x greater than what we're talking about here. Still, it makes ya' think...

Yes it does make you think. Im taking Applied Nutri Am and Pm which have 25 % L-dopa in each serving , im doing one serving two times daily. I have about another month's left worth of altogether been I'll be on it six weeks and I wont do any stuff with Mucana Puriens or L-dopa, directly, in it for a while, after this stack is completed. Im taking so much stuff right now Alcar, Subtutiamine, I took pea/hord combo, which I consider a euphoric combo, pea is amphetimine related; however it is one hundred percent clean so this stimulates dopamine? I would think yes,As of now I dont know too much about Pea/hord so Im using it at least every other day, if not longer spaces, I cant really pinpoint exactly the cause but here is an effect I had going today for a good few hours , after taking L-dopa,I got a crazy mental enhancement today I havn't felt in a long time, actually ive never felt this exact way, but I have felt somewhat similar.So My question is does L-Dopa cause one to have enhanced mental awareness? because I noticed myself to be extremely aware today.Fact I took Alcar, Sulbutamine, and The Am formula, which contains L-dopa. I didnt take Pea /Hord but I did take it yesterday, some remains of the mao inhibitor could have been in my system. Im trying to hit the nail on the head here guys and find Cause of the effect.

also it could have been an feeling good from talking to a few girls I like that raised emotions but honestly I'm thinking L-Dopa. I could be wrong but thats my analyses

 

[delton]

...I cant really pinpoint exactly the cause but here is an effect I had going today for a good few hours , after taking L-dopa,I got a crazy mental enhancement today I havn't felt in a long time, actually ive never felt this exact way, but I have felt somewhat similar.So My question is does L-Dopa cause one to have enhanced mental awareness? because I noticed myself to be extremely aware today.Fact I took Alcar, Sulbutamine, and The Am formula, which contains L-dopa. I didnt take Pea /Hord but I did take it yesterday, some remains of the mao inhibitor could have been in my system. Im trying to hit the nail on the head here guys and find Cause of the effect.

also it could have been an feeling good from talking to a few girls I like that raised emotions but honestly I'm thinking L-Dopa. I could be wrong but thats my analyses

Whew, I don't know if you can "hit the nail on the head" in this situation. Too many variables. I've used many nootropics over the years -- alpha-GPC, SAM-e, choline, DMAE, pyroglutamic acid, vinpocetine, theanine, hyderigine, idebenone, Alcar, L-Dopa, and more. In my experience, when several are taken, it's not a simple sum of effects. They can bring out new aspects of each other. I haven't tried sulbutiamine, although it sounds interesting. I read that it can cause euphoric-type reactions. Perhaps that aspect of the sulbutiamine came more to the foreground in conjunction with your emotional context and the L-Dopa and other things. Basically, these things may not cause unusual states in and of themselves, but they make it easier to fall in.

I haven't had a similar euphoric high from the L-Dopa... more like a continual low-level focus effect. Caffeine seems to effect me a little differently as well... a little more focused stimulus.

Starting this morning, I skipped the PowerFull during the day. I plan to take it only at night and before workouts for the next two weeks, then take a hiatus for a few weeks. I have a lot of the bulk PowerFull, so I hope it's something I'll feel comfortable using long term.

 

[WannaBeHulk]

Yes it does make you think. Im taking Applied Nutri Am and Pm which have 25 % L-dopa in each serving , im doing one serving two times daily. I have about another month's left worth of altogether been I'll be on it six weeks and I wont do any stuff with Mucana Puriens or L-dopa, directly, in it for a while, after this stack is completed. Im taking so much stuff right now Alcar, Subtutiamine, I took pea/hord combo, which I consider a euphoric combo, pea is amphetimine related; however it is one hundred percent clean so this stimulates dopamine? I would think yes,As of now I dont know too much about Pea/hord so Im using it at least every other day, if not longer spaces, I cant really pinpoint exactly the cause but here is an effect I had going today for a good few hours , after taking L-dopa,I got a crazy mental enhancement today I havn't felt in a long time, actually ive never felt this exact way, but I have felt somewhat similar.So My question is does L-Dopa cause one to have enhanced mental awareness? because I noticed myself to be extremely aware today.Fact I took Alcar, Sulbutamine, and The Am formula, which contains L-dopa. I didnt take Pea /Hord but I did take it yesterday, some remains of the mao inhibitor could have been in my system. Im trying to hit the nail on the head here guys and find Cause of the effect.

also it could have been an feeling good from talking to a few girls I like that raised emotions but honestly I'm thinking L-Dopa. I could be wrong but thats my analyses

it has been proven that dopamine uptake does effect mood regulation. L-dopa is a direct precursor to dopamine and is converted by decarboxylation. after this process, it is stored in the brain. PEA also stimulates dopamine release when taken with a MAO-B inhibitor. it is also excitatory (i think all dopamine precursors are excitatory but im not sure:think: ) so what im seeing is that dopamine is the dominant chemical that is likely producing feelings of well being. maybe this is leading to increased mental awreness. otherwise, im pretty sure that blocking GABA receptors is the mechanism in which this can be achieved. i havent looked into all the supps mentioned above to determine if this is accomplished.

socializing and connecting with others will neurons in your brain relating to emotion will begin to fire. however, i dont know if i can justify that to enhanced mental awareness.

1 more thing to note is that L-dopa may be an endogenous neurotransmitter itself. as far as i know, receptor and transporter molecules for L-dopa have not been identified yet. i think it has been determined that L-dopa uptake occurs through amino acid transport. so who knows, maybe with all the supps your taking, you found the most efficient mechanism for L-dopa to work.

 

[BigTom]

There's always Modafinil and Dostinex. Makes you feel like you're on low dose cocaine,(not that I would know) and focused as hell. Dost. has some bad press, albeit a one study test which caused heart valve issues in Parkinsons patients... but I eat 'em like skittles and feel gre............r, ah. Oh! I think I'mV-^-V-^V-^-V-^-^VVV-v-v-^VV_V_V_VVVVVVv
VV______V______________V___________________________.

 

[darius]

There's always Modafinil and Dostinex. Makes you feel like you're on low dose cocaine,(not that I would know) and focused as hell. Dost. has some bad press, albeit a one study test which caused heart valve issues in Parkinsons patients... but I eat 'em like skittles and feel gre............r, ah. Oh! I think I'mV-^-V-^V-^-V-^-^VVV-v-v-^VV_V_V_VVVVVVv
VV______V______________V___________________________.

Taking Modafinil and Dostinex together? Or just Dostinex?

Low dose cocaine.. lol. The first time I used AMP it was like twin turboed large dose cocaine and then some.

 

[rms80]

Yes it does make you think. Im taking Applied Nutri Am and Pm which have 25 % L-dopa in each serving , im doing one serving two times daily. I have about another month's left worth of altogether been I'll be on it six weeks and I wont do any stuff with Mucana Puriens or L-dopa, directly, in it for a while, after this stack is completed. Im taking so much stuff right now Alcar, Subtutiamine, I took pea/hord combo, which I consider a euphoric combo, pea is amphetimine related; however it is one hundred percent clean so this stimulates dopamine? I would think yes,As of now I dont know too much about Pea/hord so Im using it at least every other day, if not longer spaces, I cant really pinpoint exactly the cause but here is an effect I had going today for a good few hours , after taking L-dopa,I got a crazy mental enhancement today I havn't felt in a long time, actually ive never felt this exact way, but I have felt somewhat similar.So My question is does L-Dopa cause one to have enhanced mental awareness? because I noticed myself to be extremely aware today.Fact I took Alcar, Sulbutamine, and The Am formula, which contains L-dopa. I didnt take Pea /Hord but I did take it yesterday, some remains of the mao inhibitor could have been in my system. Im trying to hit the nail on the head here guys and find Cause of the effect.

also it could have been an feeling good from talking to a few girls I like that raised emotions but honestly I'm thinking L-Dopa. I could be wrong but thats my analyses

Yeah- you hit it on the head- PEA is a L-phenylalanine precursor, and phenylalanine and L-tyrosine are both dopamine precursors (L-tyr is one step away; L-phen. is two). Add that on top of increased L-Dopa from the mucuna, and yes this probably had something to do with it Silbutamine also causes strong increases in mental focus and memory- it is a weak Ampakine, or an AMPA (there are 4 different AMPA receptors, Ampakine is one) agonist. AMPA is a type of glutamate receptor responsible for controlling new memory. AMPA also works in conjunction with another type of glutamate receptor. NMDA, to allow new memories to link to already established ones. This could have lead to the effects that you were experiencing. Increased dopamine plus AMPA activation will probably equal a reaction similar to amphetamine, which sounds real similar to what you are describing.



PS Hordenine- I am not real familiar to this one.

 

[delton]

There's always Modafinil and Dostinex. Makes you feel like you're on low dose cocaine,(not that I would know) and focused as hell.

I have personal experience with both Provigil (modafinil) and Dostinex (cabergoline). They are completely different (do different things, work in different ways). Cabergoline has something of a reputation as a sex enhancer for men, especially in Europe. It is a long acting dopamine agonist with a high affinity for D2 receptors in the pituitary, and its primary effect is to lower prolactin. It's very effective at lowering prolactin. This in turn causes pro-sexual effects for men. But there's a big catch... prolactin levels rise and fall dramatically as part of the day/night cycle. So cabergoline throws a wrecking ball into this cycle. The result is poor sleep, and being very "foggy-headed" in the first half of the day.

Provigil (modafinil) is in a class by itself... it's a "eugeroic". It increases alertness (vigilance, anyone?) without peripheral physical effects. Although it keeps you awake, you can go to sleep on it if you want to (which you probably wouldn't). The exact mechanism of action is still not understood... it does inhibit dopamine reuptake, but it inhibits norepiniphrine reuptake even more. It inhibits GABA circuits and activates glutamate circuits.

Of the two, I'd say Provigil is a little closer to the effect of L-Dopa, since cabergoline made me foggy-headed and impaired sleep. But Provigil isn't much closer, since L-Dopa is a strong sleeping aid, and Provigil is the exact opposite.

 

[John Smeton]

In my experience, when several are taken, it's not a simple sum of effects. They can bring out new aspects of each other. I haven't tried sulbutiamine, although it sounds interesting. I read that it can cause euphoric-type reactions. Perhaps that aspect of the sulbutiamine came more to the foreground in conjunction with your emotional context and the L-Dopa and other things. Basically, these things may not cause unusual states in and of themselves, but they make it easier to fall in.

Thats where we share our expirence and learn. Thanks. It makes sense that when combined they can bring out new aspects of each other.~

 

[John Smeton]

Yeah- you hit it on the head- PEA is a L-phenylalanine precursor, and phenylalanine and L-tyrosine are both dopamine precursors (L-tyr is one step away; L-phen. is two). Add that on top of increased L-Dopa from the mucuna, and yes this probably had something to do with it Silbutamine also causes strong increases in mental focus and memory- it is a weak Ampakine, or an AMPA (there are 4 different AMPA receptors, Ampakine is one) agonist. AMPA is a type of glutamate receptor responsible for controlling new memory. AMPA also works in conjunction with another type of glutamate receptor. NMDA, to allow new memories to link to already established ones. This could have lead to the effects that you were experiencing. Increased dopamine plus AMPA activation will probably equal a reaction similar to amphetamine, which sounds real similar to what you are describing.PS Hordenine- I am not real familiar to this one.

Wow you know your stuff down to the T, actually the NMDA in this case.=) Thank you! Ive been taking Sulb for two to three months now. I started off at 100 mgs a day, then I went up to a gram, DO NOT DO THIS, I did a gram for about a month and expirenced some serious headaches. Now I am doing about 500 mgs and this is whats working for me. Again everyone is different and youll have to see what the correct dose is for you. But maybe you can take these guidelines for me expirementing with it. This is what the most noticable effect I notice. The Ability to not even think, its like Im on automatic with the ability to talk smoothly, clealy free flow, and have increased mental cogitive function.

Yesterdat I went for a job interview ...Out of nowhere I came up with these big words, I look words up in the dictionary when Im reading a book or dont know the meaning, and I kid you not, I walked out of that office , thought back to what I said during the interview and ACTUALLY IMPRESSED MYSELF with the huge words that were interconnected and woven togegther all in one sentence or connecting the sentence. After i was riding in the car I started laughing out loud real hard and genuiely because I did so good. No joke. Sulb seems to possibly make you mental aggressive or maybe not mentallly aggressive but just everything though,, idea, connecting and flowing almost on automatic.


Hordenine is a mao inhibitor , when combined with PEa it'll work. Basically without an mao inhibitor Pea is useless.

 

[WannaBeHulk]

cabergoline throws a wrecking ball into this cycle. The result is poor sleep, and being very "foggy-headed" in the first half of the day.

i would think this affect could be neutralized by L-tryptophan. i say this cause i would bet it adversely affects seratonin reuptake inhibitors. if im right, melatonin is another option but i cant stand it (loooooooong half-life). cabergoline is solely an MAO-B inhibitor and MAO-A inhibitors shouldnt have this affect. selegine inhibits both pathways so i dont think its a problem for selegine. modafinil does not inhibit the activity of MAO-B. in fact, it doesnt bind to any receptors inducing sleep/wake regulation.

marijuana could be another solution to bad sleep from cabergoline as it lowers dopamine levels:afro: if dopamine levels remain high for too long, it results in reduced capacity for normal pleasure. thats why drugs like meth and cocaine are addictive. users will get too accustomed to the high as a result of exogenous dopamine and feel like ass when their levels are lower when off the drug.

 

[John Smeton]

I plan to cycle off of Alcar, Sulb, and Applied Nutieuticals Am and PM formula, which contain.

The Am formula contains, 600 mgs I beleive, If any Applied Nuticeutical reps want to chime in, I take three capsules.Applied Nutriceuticals is good stuff ,a positive review here.
The Am formula
Green Tea
Mucuna Pruriens(standarized 25 % L-Dopa)
Bacopa Monnieri
and Caffeine(Anhydrous)

Pm formula, the same as above
Green Tea
Mucuna Pruriens(standarized 25 % L-Dopa)
Bacopa Monnieri
Banaba Extract(1% Corosolic Acid)

I plan to cycle off of these, in one month,and "replace" these with clear Edge which I think will Clear Edge me,lol.

 

[delton]

i would think this affect could be neutralized by L-tryptophan. i say this cause i would bet it adversely affects seratonin reuptake inhibitors. if im right, melatonin is another option but i cant stand it (loooooooong half-life). cabergoline is solely an MAO-B inhibitor and MAO-A inhibitors shouldnt have this affect. selegine inhibits both pathways so i dont think its a problem for selegine. modafinil does not inhibit the activity of MAO-B. in fact, it doesnt bind to any receptors inducing sleep/wake regulation.

I don't want to be contrary just to be contrary, but I think this isn't quite right. I'm pretty sure cabergoline is not an MAO-B inhibitor. It is a dopamine agonist, with some receptor selectivity to the D2 dopamine receptor. This stuff causes lots of people a lot of side effects... see a long list of complaints at Ratings for dostinex: side effects and patient comments

The basic problem is that your brain needs your prolactin levels to swing up and down during the day, and cabergoline prevents this.

And selegeline is primarily an MAO-B inhibitor, with very little if any MAO-A inhibition.

 

[WannaBeHulk]

I don't want to be contrary just to be contrary, but I think this isn't quite right. I'm pretty sure cabergoline is not an MAO-B inhibitor. It is a dopamine agonist, with some receptor selectivity to the D2 dopamine receptor. This stuff causes lots of people a lot of side effects... see a long list of complaints at Ratings for dostinex: side effects and patient comments

The basic problem is that your brain needs your prolactin levels to swing up and down during the day, and cabergoline prevents this.

And selegeline is primarily an MAO-B inhibitor, with very little if any MAO-A inhibition.

ok, now i feel embarassed:sad: you are correct in every aspect of this post. for some reason, i was thinking depreynl=cabergoline but it is selegiline and that had me draw false conclusions/theories. they made sense to me but ended up being irrelevant. damn, and i thought i was being intelligent:frustrate

ill hit you up with some reps for being so knowledgeable

 

[John Smeton]

ok, now i feel embarassed:sad: you are correct in every aspect of this post. for some reason, i was thinking depreynl=cabergoline but it is selegiline and that had me draw false conclusions/theorie, they made sense to me but ended up being irrelevant. damn, and i thought i was being intelligent:frustrate

No need to feel sad over mis matched facts ...Take some Sulbutamine and it'll clear this up .:toofunny:

 

[John Smeton]

actually I dont have my facts strait. Sad and embarrassed are two totally different emotions.

so syaing all that to say this. No need to feel embarrassed over mis-matched facts. Ive been told Ive done it before.actually I did it just now didnt I?=)

 

[John Smeton]

still on here wanna-be? I think youve got a few points right on the button reviewing your points, just a few mismatched facts. Keep up the good-work.

 

[rms80]

Wow you know your stuff down to the T, actually the NMDA in this case.=) Thank you! Ive been taking Sulb for two to three months now. I started off at 100 mgs a day, then I went up to a gram, DO NOT DO THIS, I did a gram for about a month and expirenced some serious headaches. Now I am doing about 500 mgs and this is whats working for me. Again everyone is different and youll have to see what the correct dose is for you. But maybe you can take these guidelines for me expirementing with it. This is what the most noticable effect I notice. The Ability to not even think, its like Im on automatic with the ability to talk smoothly, clealy free flow, and have increased mental cogitive function.

Yesterdat I went for a job interview ...Out of nowhere I came up with these big words, I look words up in the dictionary when Im reading a book or dont know the meaning, and I kid you not, I walked out of that office , thought back to what I said during the interview and ACTUALLY IMPRESSED MYSELF with the huge words that were interconnected and woven togegther all in one sentence or connecting the sentence. After i was riding in the car I started laughing out loud real hard and genuiely because I did so good. No joke. Sulb seems to possibly make you mental aggressive or maybe not mentallly aggressive but just everything though,, idea, connecting and flowing almost on automatic.


Hordenine is a mao inhibitor , when combined with PEa it'll work. Basically without an mao inhibitor Pea is useless.

Wow- a gram of Silbutamine in one day? The most I could tolerate was about 700 mg- headaches were ridiculous, plus it really messes with my breathing patterns for some reason- I run track, so I can't really handle that very well. I combined it in a capsule with caffeine- you are right, it does seem to drastically increase your verbal capacity. I still have some of it at the house- one thing I did find is that it makes me very irritable after a few days, and it seems the slightest thing seems to set me off when I take it.

I am on Provigil right now and love it- you do kind of have to mess around to find the right dose- but I guess that is anything. 250 mg/day seems to be just right for me- 300 mg and I can't sleep more than a few hours, and 200 mg, does not really seem to do that much. I also take chocamine (300 mg) first thing in the morning along with it- puts you in a really good mood and is a nice clean energy rush!!
On a more interesting note- I have taken Lipo-PM for months with no issues, and taken it alongside with my Provigil at opposite spectrums of the day (Provigil 1st thing in the morning; Lipo-PM before bedtime). Works great- however, the last week I tried upping my dose of Provigil to 300 mg- big mistake- I quit sleeping, my breathing became real sporadic, and I generally felt like crap. I did this for 3 nights- same result. After the third night of no sleep, I added tyrosine (2g) the next day- I have never been that zoned-in and focused in my entire life (even with no sleep). However, when it wore off, that is probably the worst I have ever felt- so I put my dose back to 250 mg.

Smart drugs are really interesting- but I guess the key thing to note is that they need to used with caution!!

 

[delton]

I am on Provigil right now and love it- you do kind of have to mess around to find the right dose- but I guess that is anything. 250 mg/day seems to be just right for me- 300 mg and I can't sleep more than a few hours, and 200 mg, does not really seem to do that much. I also take chocamine (300 mg) first thing in the morning along with it- puts you in a really good mood and is a nice clean energy rush!!
[...]
Smart drugs are really interesting- but I guess the key thing to note is that they need to used with caution!!

Sorry to go off of the dopamine thread here, but I want to chip in on the Provigil discussion, in case people reading this might be in a position to try it.

I've taken Provigil on a daily basis for three years now. I wouldn't call it a classical smart drug. For one thing, it's a Schedule IV controlled substance (I do have a prescription). It's a stronger beast than most smart drugs.

It also up-regulates the liver enzyme responsible for degrading it, which means that if you take it regularly for a long time, you will gradually need to take more of it... for the simple reason that your liver is chewing it up faster. After three years, I currently take 400 mg/day.

Also, if you don't take it regularly, the effect will be quite a bit stronger. I don't advise anyone to take more than 100 mg of Provigil on a first dose, and don't take it after noon or you may have trouble sleeping. Don't drink alcohol... it'll hit hard and probably give you a hangover. And of course be careful about other stimulants. Allow plenty of time after taking it before deciding how it's affecting you... the onset is typically an hour on an empty stomach, but can be as long as several hours if its taken on a full stomach. The primary effect will last 8 hours, but a residual effect may last twice that long. A headache is the most common side effect, so if you're prone to headaches, be prepared.

Be careful what you feed your head...

 

[WannaBeHulk]

still on here wanna-be? I think youve got a few points right on the button reviewing your points, just a few mismatched facts. Keep up the good-work.

im still here! i love discussing neuroscience. i wish it were a more popular topic around here cause its so interesting. unfortunately, i have a degree in finance but am considering training to become a PA specializing in neurology. my speculations are not based on traditional education but i enjoy reading anything that pertains to this field. just a heads up in case i post inaccurate info again

 

[John Smeton]

Be careful what you feed your head...

How True!

 

[John Smeton]

Wow- a gram of Silbutamine in one day? The most I could tolerate was about 700 mg- headaches were ridiculous, plus it really messes with my breathing patterns for some reason- I run track, so I can't really handle that very well. I combined it in a capsule with caffeine- you are right, it does seem to drastically increase your verbal capacity. I still have some of it at the house- one thing I did find is that it makes me very irritable after a few days, and it seems the slightest thing seems to set me off when I take it.

Smart drugs are really interesting- but I guess the key thing to note is that they need to used with caution!!

Yes after expirenmenting with them on myself like Ive been doing I have noticed some intense things felt I have never felt before. Sometimes it scares me but I use as much research and common sense possible behind these products. Its best to always play it safe. I dont practice what I preach but I do for me. Im a natural risk taker and enjoy the thrill, even if its harmful, just to get the rush, but in the context of the risk I am safe. and of course if need some nuturing Ill play it safe. Life is good to live in the good ol US of A. Ill share as I learn more.
Heres an Interesting Thread
We're much safer than the continued Cigg smokers and Drunks or heavy drinkers

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/62246-study-alcohol-tobacco.html#post760090

 

[BruFan]

. Deprenyl can be quite expensive. Wondering if there's some other cost effective combinations.

Really? Man, I think I spend more on my BCAAs and other aminos than I do on Deprenyl. For dopamine boosting via MAO-B inhibition, you really don't need to take much due to the fact that it's an irreversible inhibitor, meaning it's effects on MAO last 2-3 weeks. I think I pay a little over $35 for 50 tabs at 5mg. I started at 2x5mg per day to get a jump start for the first two weeks, then bumped it down to 1x5mg per day with no noticeable loss of effectiveness. I know some people swear by half a 5mg tab per day. The stuff builds up and you can take less.

For me, the $35 or $45 every other month is well worth it. L-Dep along with low dose Rhodiola 3x per day greatly improves the dopamine boosting effects of Tyrosine, DLPA and Theanine supplements. Nevermind making low dose PEA absolutely wonderful.

And selegeline is primarily an MAO-B inhibitor, with very little if any MAO-A inhibition.

Not to be contrary either, but the selectivity of L-Dep's MAO inhibition is dose dependent. At the recommended dose of the oral version, you're right, it is highly selective to MAO-B, but somewhere in the neighborhood of over 20mg it loses it's selectivity and inhibits MAO-A as well. The new topical delivery system recently approved for major depression in the US, the EMSAM patch, delivers enough for full MAOI action while supposedly avoiding the 'cheese effect' of MAO-A inhibition in the gut.

 

[John Smeton]

Really? Man, I think I spend more on my BCAAs and other aminos than I do on Deprenyl. For dopamine boosting via MAO-B inhibition, you really don't need to take much due to the fact that it's an irreversible inhibitor, meaning it's effects on MAO last 2-3 week I think I pay a little over $35 for 50 tabs at 5mg. I started at 2x5mg per day to get a jump start for the first two weeks, then bumped it down to 1x5mg per day with no noticeable loss of effectiveness. I know some people swear by half a 5mg tab per day. The stuff builds up and you can take less.

For me, the $35 or $45 every other month is well worth it. L-Dep along with low dose Rhodiola 3x per day greatly improves the dopamine boosting effects of Tyrosine, DLPA and Theanine supplements. Nevermind making low dose PEA absolutely wonderful.

Not to be contrary either, but the selectivity of L-Dep's MAO inhibition is dose dependent. At the recommended dose of the oral version, you're right, it is highly selective to MAO-B, but somewhere in the neighborhood of over 20mg it loses it's selectivity and inhibits MAO-A as well. The new topical delivery system recently approved for major depression in the US, the EMSAM patch, delivers enough for full MAOI action while supposedly avoiding the 'cheese effect' of MAO-A inhibition in the gut.

What is the Cheese effect? Smiling all the time, if so count me in Ill look like a retard if it makes me feel good. I was reading today in a Tantra book about when you smile externally lots of positive things happen with your body. Smiling Internally is the key. Look at yourself in a mirror and smile the biggets smile you can smile, then imagine that smile on the inside of you, down in your solar plexus, or whatever chakra you want them in, and imagine it in the back of your brain, ONLY BIGGER AND MORE CHEESING THAN THE SMILE YOU SMILED EXTERALLY IN THE MIRROR. Good exercise!=)

 

[BruFan]

What is the Cheese effect?

The Cheese Effect is the downside to conventional non-selective MAOIs... If you inhibit MAO-A in the gut, you've got to switch to a diet that precludes any tyramine containing foods like cheese, wine, etc.... or risk hypertensive crisis.

Cheese syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Monoamine oxidase inhibitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Selegiline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[John Smeton]

The Cheese Effect is the downside to conventional non-selective MAOIs... If you inhibit MAO-A in the gut, you've got to switch to a diet that precludes any tyramine containing foods like cheese, wine, etc.... or risk hypertensive crisis.

Cheese syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Monoamine oxidase inhibitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Selegiline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

do you know if hordinene is a non-selective MAOI? I dont not see it listed.

 

[BruFan]

do you know if hordinene is a non-selective MAOI? I dont not see it listed.

I'm not 100% sure. I can tell you that while on L-Dep, a standard dose of Basic Cuts which has Hordenine and PEA seems to work very well without any hypertensive impact for me... it may not be the same for everyone.

from : Basic Cuts (120 caps) By Designer Supplements
Hordenine
The Monoamine Oxidases, MAO-A and MAO-B, are two enzymes principally involved in catalyzing the oxidation (metabolism) of the monoamines. MAO-A is commonly thought to break down the neurochemicals serotonin and norepinephrine while MAO-B generally catalyzes the break down of dopamine and PEA (as stated above). Hordenine is included in BASIC CUTS™ due to its ability to inhibit MAO-B and thereby make PEA orally bioavailable thus allowing all the intriguing effects of stimulation and mood enhancement mentioned above to become a reality. As a consequence of hordenine’s MAO-B inhibition, dopamine activity is also prolonged. During dieting, dopamine is of particular importance because it is generally theorized to be the body’s means of communication between the brain and the anti-starvation hormone Leptin. Additionally, dopamine is also associated with nutrient partitioning (where the calories you consume go), mood, appetite and a whole host of other biochemical functions. Unfortunately, when you diet, dopamine also happens to decrease quite significantly, thus some means of ensuring adequate dopamine output should be paramount (hint: hordenine helps).

As if its efficacy in increasing PEA availability and dopaminergic tone weren’t enough, there is also credible evidence that hordenine not only “liberates” norepinephrine, but also inhibits its metabolism, leading to increased stimulation. As many know, norepinephrine and epinephrine collectively form the catecholamines – the means through which the popular supplement ephedrine indirectly exerts its stimulatory effect on the central nervous system and improves lipolysis (fat burning).

 

[BruFan]

I can tell you that while on L-Dep, a standard dose of Basic Cuts which has Hordenine and PEA seems to work very well without any hypertensive impact for me... it may not be the same for everyone.

Umm... hell, it could be dangerous for some.

 

[rms80]

Sorry to go off of the dopamine thread here, but I want to chip in on the Provigil discussion, in case people reading this might be in a position to try it.

I've taken Provigil on a daily basis for three years now. I wouldn't call it a classical smart drug. For one thing, it's a Schedule IV controlled substance (I do have a prescription). It's a stronger beast than most smart drugs.

It also up-regulates the liver enzyme responsible for degrading it, which means that if you take it regularly for a long time, you will gradually need to take more of it... for the simple reason that your liver is chewing it up faster. After three years, I currently take 400 mg/day.

Also, if you don't take it regularly, the effect will be quite a bit stronger. I don't advise anyone to take more than 100 mg of Provigil on a first dose, and don't take it after noon or you may have trouble sleeping. Don't drink alcohol... it'll hit hard and probably give you a hangover. And of course be careful about other stimulants. Allow plenty of time after taking it before deciding how it's affecting you... the onset is typically an hour on an empty stomach, but can be as long as several hours if its taken on a full stomach. The primary effect will last 8 hours, but a residual effect may last twice that long. A headache is the most common side effect, so if you're prone to headaches, be prepared.

Be careful what you feed your head...

Good post! I have been on Provigil for about 4 months, and you learn a lot of what you just mentioned pretty quickly just from feeling like **** And I absolutely agree- be careful with anything you put in your body!!

 

[delton]

Good post! I have been on Provigil for about 4 months, and you learn a lot of what you just mentioned pretty quickly just from feeling like **** And I absolutely agree- be careful with anything you put in your body!!

rms80, PM me and I'll share more tips on taking Provigil, based on my three years of experience.