Negatives of CEE?

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    Negatives of CEE?


    Hey guys,

    I joined the boards about a month ago and I didn't want to ask this question until I had thoroughly researched, but I have either not looked carefully enough or there isn't a definate answer on this, but here it goes...

    I've taken Creatine Ethyl Ester in the past (bulk CEE from CNW) and I was curious as to the shelf life of this powder as well as the potential side effects of taking CEE.

    I know how to cycle it (2 months or so on, a couple weeks off, then another cycle if I want) and I am going on a 6 month bulk so I will have roughly over two cycles of CEE, but I was reading that CEE may cause some kidney problems down the road? Any substantiation out there as to the health risks of CEE?

    Thanks in advance!

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanity
    "I was reading that CEE may cause some kidney problems down the road? Any substantiation out there as to the health risks of CEE?"

    For myself, as far as sides are concerned, CEE really doesn't have any sides except for the need of a continuous supply of water, but that just means it's working.

    CEE is monohydrate (minus the salt molecule) with an ester attached.

    After ingestion, the ester is cleaved off leaving only pure creatine, so most of the sides associated with monohydrate (even though they are very mild), are eliminated.
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    What about physiological side effects? I don't really have a problem with drinking tons of water, but what about potential problems down the road?
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanity
    What about pysiological side effects? I don't really have a problem with drinking tons of water, but what about potential problems down the road?
    CEE is relatively new so it is hard to say what effects it will/may have. Creatine Mono has been studied and it has been found to have very few negatice effects and it seems that every year, more positive effects are found for creatine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja
    CEE is relatively new so it is hard to say what effects it will/may have. Creatine Mono has been studied and it has been found to have very few negatice effects and it seems that every year, more positive effects are found for creatine.
    It's true that no present studies have been conducted on CEE, but that is only due to the fact that it costs an @ssload to do the research and since CEE and monohydrate are identical once absorbed, the results would be very similar to that of the monohydrate studies, but I'm sure in due time, the truth will be unveiled to all the non-believers. (I'm not saying you fall into that catagory)

    Once the understanding of esterification has been established, the ONLY difference between CEE and monohydrate (prior to absorbtion) is the act of esterification itself. Once the ester is cleaved off, the remaining creatine is identical to the creatine already present in our bodies.
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    Shelf life should be around 3 years after date of manufacture. Estimate a 2 1/2 year shelf life if you buy your bulk powders from a reputable retailer (CNW or Nutraplant).
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    Just a question,does it matter where the CEE is made??

    I got some that I found out was made in China,does that mean it's of lower quality than a powder made in America??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wordz_Worf
    Just a question,does it matter where the CEE is made??

    I got some that I found out was made in China,does that mean it's of lower quality than a powder made in America??
    Almost every bulk powder is sourced from China. Very few supplements are made in America, just like everything nowadays.
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    There are anecdotal reports (some from reputable board members) of kidney issues associated with CEE use. Problems subsided with discontinuation.

    The thing to remember is to NOT DOSE CEE LIKE MONO. You need far far less CEE than mono (people take too much mono to begin with IMHO). Start small, ramp up to your desired dosage, listen to your body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NO HYPE
    It's true that no present studies have been conducted on CEE, but that is only due to the fact that it costs an @ssload to do the research and since CEE and monohydrate are identical once absorbed, the results would be very similar to that of the monohydrate studies, but I'm sure in due time, the truth will be unveiled to all the non-believers.
    If I can get past IRB I will be conducting the first CEE research study in an academic setting. Wish me luck..
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieTrying
    If I can get past IRB I will be conducting the first CEE research study in an academic setting. Wish me luck..

    Most definitely.

    If I may, how in depth of a study would it be?

    In my opinion (not that it's worth anything), I would very much like to see a study that mainly focuses on the more important properties of CEE like enhanced absorbtion rates in comparison to that of monohydrate, or the reduced gastrointestinal side effects.

    Provided there are enough funds, I would like to see other myths proven wrong as well, like the safety of CEE (wich I'm sure will pan out to be almost identical to that of monohydrate).

    Since the only difference between CEE and mono, prior to absorbtion is the process of esterification, I think any studies conducted will prove that once CEE is ingested, the ester is quickly cleaved off and converted to very small amounts of ethanol. This is the reason for my belief that once cell permeation has been achieved, only creatine saturates the cell and not the ester.

    Anyways, good luck and please keep us updated on your progress.
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    Yeah, my biggest concern is safety. Is monohydrate really that safe? I just don't want to use it because of the bloating, but if there might be potential safety issues with CEE then I'm all for bloating.

    I used CEE in the past and I never really paid attention to safety, but I know I used it within the recommended usage, and I only cycled it once.
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanity
    "Yeah, my biggest concern is safety. Is monohydrate really that safe?"

    "I just don't want to use it because of the bloating, but if there might be potential safety issues with CEE then I'm all for bloating."

    We all have creatine present in our bodies prior to supplementation. The only difference between endogenous creatine and creatine monohydrate, is a salt molecule. This molecule is what creates the bloating and is also the reason for a loading phase.

    CEE is esterified in order to remove the extra salt molecule and eliminate those problems. This in turn means that one of the main advantages of CEE is that once absorbed, it is identical to endogenous creatine.

    As far as safety is concerned, the only area that I have ever considered to be questionable is dehydration, but like Yeahright previously pointed out, that is most likely due to overdosing.

    I have played around with CEE and I know first hand that if you dose too high, and you combine that with a lack of hydration, dehydration will soon follow.

    So bottom line.... use it wisely and you'll be set.
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    Getting past the IRB is not going to be easy, but I gonna give it my best shot. I'm meeting with 2 physicians Tuesday.

    I hope to do a randomized, double-blind comparison of creatine monohydrate vs. CEE on measures of anaerobic capacity (probably Wingate), body composition (specifically water retention) and a full blood panel in 30+ resistance trained (>1 yr.) males with no prior history of creatine use (if there are any out there .

    I have not yet developed the exact design as far as time is concerned (long-term training study vs. 5-day load).
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieTrying
    Getting past the IRB is not going to be easy, but I gonna give it my best shot. I'm meeting with 2 physicians Tuesday.

    I hope to do a randomized, double-blind comparison of creatine monohydrate vs. CEE on measures of anaerobic capacity (probably Wingate), body composition (specifically water retention) and a full blood panel in 30+ resistance trained (>1 yr.) males with no prior history of creatine use (if there are any out there .

    I have not yet developed the exact design as far as time is concerned (long-term training study vs. 5-day load).

    This is really great news if it all works out....

    I will be very anxious to here from you again my friend.
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    So how much water should I be drinking to avoid dehydration? I drank around 2 liters of water of day, was that sufficient?
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanity
    So how much water should I be drinking to avoid dehydration? I drank around 2 liters of water of day, was that sufficient?
    Quite honestly, I never really measured, and I don't think there is a set amount.

    I simply drink until I feel as though I should stop. There is no need to go overboard with the CEE dosage, so as long as you stay within the norm (2-4 grams in my experience), you shouldn't have any problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja
    Almost every bulk powder is sourced from China. Very few supplements are made in America, just like everything nowadays.

    Damn,so there is'nt like a CEE made in America by any company??

    Do you think it matters where it is made??

    I have read that Creatine Mono made in America or Germany is always superior to ones from China,is this true?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wordz_Worf

    "I have read that Creatine Mono made in America or Germany is always superior to ones from China,is this true?"

    Not if the ingredients listed on the label are indeed what they say they are.
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    Exactly
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    Quote Originally Posted by NO HYPE
    Not if the ingredients listed on the label are indeed what they say they are.
    So the whole German Creapure thing is just B.S????
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wordz_Worf
    So the whole German Creapure thing is just B.S????

    I don't really know much about that product in particular, but basically, I don't care what hype is touted along with any product.... the label is the law. It's where you can go to bypass all the BS and find the truth.

    If the company says that their creatine is superior to any other, and when you look to the supplemental facts on the label and find that it is reads.... creatine monohydrate .... than that is excactly what it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NO HYPE
    I don't really know much about that product in particular, but basically, I don't care what hype is touted along with any product.... the label is the law. It's where you can go to bypass all the BS and find the truth.

    If the company says that their creatine is superior to any other, and when you look to the supplemental facts on the label and find that it is reads.... creatine monohydrate .... than that is excactly what it is.
    Well, no. In the United States what is on the label is what the manufacturer says is in the product. There is no government testing. It's not uncommon for independent testing of supplements (like Consumer Reports does) to show that some products contain little if any of the actives listed on the label. This is true especially for the smaller companies who don't have a lot of control over their ingredient supply chain.

    I believe the "creapure" label is supposed to be an indication that the product is certified to containthe active at X levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright
    Well, no. In the United States what is on the label is what the manufacturer says is in the product. There is no government testing. It's not uncommon for independent testing of supplements (like Consumer Reports does) to show that some products contain little if any of the actives listed on the label. This is true especially for the smaller companies who don't have a lot of control over their ingredient supply chain.

    I believe the "creapure" label is supposed to be an indication that the product is certified to containthe active at X levels.

    I probably should have worded it differently, but when I stated that the label is the law.... I was referring to the fact that the ingredients themselves must be presented on the label, however I do understand that the manufacturer has the option of not disclosing the actual amounts of the active ingredient or propietary blend.
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