American Ginseng enhances glucose disposal, Better than R-lipoic acid? Comments plz!

windwords7

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<SPAN class=postcolor>davin8r posted this at Avants forums. Please give me your thoughts on this. Here is the link for the full thread http://www.mindandmuscle.net/avantforum/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=1031&s=405be93b8f73f2d83f5c31ab37e9bf0e</SPAN>

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American Ginseng enhances glucose disposal, Better than R-lipoic acid?

<SPAN class=postcolor>"I just posted this over at Elite Fitness, and thought I'd cut/paste it here as well in case anyone finds it helpful:

American Ginseng has demonstrated potent glucose-lowering properties in two published clinical studies, one published in the (relatively prestigious) American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

1. Vuksan V et al. Arch Intern Med 2000;160:1009-1013.
2. Vuksan V et al. Am J Clin Nutr 2001;753-758.

It does exactly what people are trying to do with R-lipoic acid, but at a significant cost savings. In the studies I mentioned, both non-diabetic and diabetic subjects took American Ginseng at various time points before or at the same time as a glucose challenge.

In the non-diabetic subjects (relevant to us), AG administered 40 minutes prior to the glucose challenge lowered the area under the glucose curve by 18% in one study and 15% in the other.

I wanted to point out these studies because of the high cost associated with lipoic acid, especially R-LA, and because of the fact that lipoic acid has not yet been clinically demonstrated to produce acute glucose-lowering effects in healthy humans when administered before or during a meal, although I suspect that this will be the case at high enough doses (and anecdotal evidence on this forum and elsewhere supports this).

BTW, American Ginseng also contains powerful lipid- and water-soluble antioxidants:

Kitts DD et al. Antioxidant properties of a North American ginseng extract. Mol Cell Biochem 2000;203:1-10.

Hope this helps!! </SPAN>

<SPAN class=postcolor>Supnut said this in response:</SPAN>

<SPAN class=postcolor>In this graph we clearly see that when taken with the glucose the herb has no effect and only when taken at least 40min before the test dose the herb have an effect. No greater effect seams to occur when taken in greater advance than 40 min however even at two hours the herb still remains effective.

The results show that the herb is effective at 1 gram when taken at least 40 min before a meal. This would suggest an practicle application to bodybuilding in which the herb would be supplemented before leaving for the gym or upon beggining one's workout with the asumption that the next meal would immediatly follow the workout.

The actuall mechanisms and active principles of the herb are unclear although it apears to have a wide array of effects in the body. I would specualte based on the the herbs ability to effect glucose uptake even when used two hours before the fact that its effects are not drrected through insulin, This would be further supported by the herb's lack of effect when taken with the meal. This asumption if correct would illiminate the concern that chronic dosing could lead to reduced glucose trasnport although this has certainly not been ruled out.

Cost wise the treatment would be very feasible. Penn Herb Co. sells the herb in 475mg x60 bottles for target=_blank>$12.50 which is very affordable for a month's supply. They also carry the product in a bulk powder for target=_blank>$110 which is about half the cost but still a considerable investment. A pound would be enough for about a year and a half.
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Sheesh

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I think i'm gonna add some ginseng to my supplement cabinet. Thanks for the info.
 
TOYFORDOLET

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Effect of ginseng saponins on exercise performance in non-trained rats.

Department of Biological Sciences, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada. [email protected]

Short-term (4 days), but not acute, treatment with ginseng saponin (GS, 10 and 20 mg/kg/day) significantly prolonged the aerobic endurance of non-trained rats exercising at approximately 70% VO2max. Compared to the saline controls, GS treatment significantly increased the plasma free fatty acid (FFA) level and maintained plasma glucose level during exercise. Both the liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels of the GS-treated rats were slightly higher than those of saline-treated controls after exhaustive exercise. These results indicate that GS enhances exercise endurance by altering fuel homeostasis during prolonged exercise, presumably by increasing FFA utilization in preference over glucose for cellular energy demands. To further search for the active components responsible for the ergogenic effect of GS, it was found that a GS preparation devoid of Rg1 and Rb1 failed, whereas injection of either Rg1 or Rb1 enhanced aerobic exercise performance. These results indicate that both Rg1 and Rb1 are key ingredients in GS-mediated enhancement in aerobic endurance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9525104


Not 100% relevant to glucose disposal, but I thought the glycogen sparing effects were interesting.
 
strategicmove

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Quite some serious bump! :D
 
1HP

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lol, a 7 year bump :)

Anyway, I would still take ala for its anti-oxidant capacity. I find Red Korean Ginseng to be king. You need the 6-year old roots. Really nice energy and feel good boost. Gives an edge pre-workout aswell, subtle but there nonetheless. Very expensive though but whats the price for feeling great?
 
justreading

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Hasn't glut-4 pretty much been marginalized as a bodybuilding pathway due to the dual upregulation of intake within muscle and fat thus providing minimal benefit in body composition and really only benefiting long term insulin sensitivity that could be down regulated from over eating due to bodybuilding? Isn't it more of a long term preventative measure rather than an acute recomp pathway?
 
matthias7

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lol, a 7 year bump :)

Anyway, I would still take ala for its anti-oxidant capacity. I find Red Korean Ginseng to be king. You need the 6-year old roots. Really nice energy and feel good boost. Gives an edge pre-workout aswell, subtle but there nonetheless. Very expensive though but whats the price for feeling great?
What dosage are you using?

I've tried small amounts of raw red preserved in date syrup, about 100g a time, but never found it to have much benefit. It didn't seem cost effective.

I've noted the price of 6 year old red - it'll need to be good at that price but alot depends on how much per day. At 1g per day (around $80 for 150g) then its extremely good value - if it works and cheaper than many supps (3 months supply). At 5g per day it starts to become top end range of supps (1 months supply). At 10g per day its no go.
 
1HP

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What dosage are you using?

I've tried small amounts of raw red preserved in date syrup, about 100g a time, but never found it to have much benefit. It didn't seem cost effective.

I've noted the price of 6 year old red - it'll need to be good at that price but alot depends on how much per day. At 1g per day (around $80 for 150g) then its extremely good value - if it works and cheaper than many supps (3 months supply). At 5g per day it starts to become top end range of supps (1 months supply). At 10g per day its no go.
I used ~1.5 gram doses. Its pretty expensive.. I would not call it good value ;)
 
crazyfool405

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Hasn't glut-4 pretty much been marginalized as a bodybuilding pathway due to the dual upregulation of intake within muscle and fat thus providing minimal benefit in body composition and really only benefiting long term insulin sensitivity that could be down regulated from over eating due to bodybuilding? Isn't it more of a long term preventative measure rather than an acute recomp pathway?
alot of them use the PPARy as means of increasing insulin sensitivity as well as blocking adipogenesis.

its definetly something to have, i would take it pre bed to keep NPY levels down in the morning so its easier to do fasting cardio and not be starving your ass off
 
matthias7

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I used ~1.5 gram doses. Its pretty expensive.. I would not call it good value ;)
At a $1 a day its sure cheaper than beer. Depends how much of a punch it packs. Beer packs a punch at about $15 - tolerance depending ;)
 
TOYFORDOLET

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I read a couple studies showing ginseng should be taken at least 40 min. prior to meals to be effective at glucose disposal.
 
crazyfool405

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Yes it takes about an hour to kick in

I take 550mg 1 hour before my meal and 550 with my meal
 
crazyfool405

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vitamin shoppe brand nothing special i dont remember off hand
 
TOYFORDOLET

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It seems that 5% is common, I found a 25% extract (ginsenosides) and I'm thinking 100-200mg before refeed meals .
 
crazyfool405

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Nah before refeed meals... I have my own special stuff lol

Check my cut progress log for a few examples
 
justreading

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alot of them use the PPARy as means of increasing insulin sensitivity as well as blocking adipogenesis.

its definetly something to have, i would take it pre bed to keep NPY levels down in the morning so its easier to do fasting cardio and not be starving your ass off
Interesting... I can't do am cardio when cutting or I throw up from hunger.
 
Outside Backer

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so do I i've always wondered how anyone does anything fasted I get so sick i wanna die
 
crazyfool405

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You can try the ginseng see how it goes.

Also if u wake up for a shake in the middle of the night pop a ginseng as well
 
justreading

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You can try the ginseng see how it goes.

Also if u wake up for a shake in the middle of the night pop a ginseng as well
Peanut butter at night might not be ideal but its what i do, forcive habit almost every night unless cutting on low fat. Ginseng doesn't make sense to me but when I go to cut maybe i'll try it.
 
crazyfool405

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Well it works via the ppary pathway which regulates adipogenesis. So even while bulking it'll serve a nice purpose
 
strategicmove

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Neuro peptide Y is a hormone thats secreted from the hypothalamus the morning which signals hunger for the most part.

Its elevated in the morning...
I remember our Neuro Peptide Y discussion in the Glycobol thread. :D

You had sent me a PM on lyase, beta-oxidation, and all that. I deleted it accidentally before responding to it. Could you resend it?
 
crazyfool405

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Yea I figured it out but ill reswend it lol always good to have another pair of eyes take a look
 

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