19-nor-diol/dione+4AD cycle for beginner [HELP!]
- 08-22-2006, 09:44 PM
19-nor-diol/dione+4AD cycle for beginner [HELP!]
from the creator of "Capsules for M-1-Alphgernon" it's:
"What am I Gonna Do Now?"
for those of you who don't know my previous dalliances with the (albeit legal) dark side: i've done a two-week low-dose cycle of methasteron (superdrol/methyl-masterdrol/revenge SDX/etc.) where i gained 4 pounds, a two-week fairly low-dose cycle of methyl-1-alpha where i gained 10 pounds and kept 4-5 (ended with too much coconut-derived MCT oil which really upset my intestines and had bad diahrreal consequences) and a 10-12 day very low dose halodrol-50 cycle which was 4 pounds after PCT.
so now i'm back at basically baseline maximum "natural" musculature, without the lectins in the standard american diet that are anabolic to adipose tissue for my blood type (O). when i was 19 i bloated up to 169 with standard fare, fatter thighs and bigger butt, smoother body with higher bodyfat. now i'm older, smarter, wiser, with the refined knowledge of how foods effect my body composition and conscioussnes. straight-up hardcore blood-type diet, eating very "clean". eating clean to me is eating as much beef lard as i want, paleolithic meals are still on the menu. i was up to 160, 161.. now i'm 155 (again).
i was going to do an ergomax lmg cycle (straight up 10/10 two-weeker). i was going to do a mixed low-dose methasteron + ergomax but i thought i'd honor the ergo first with its own 2 week blind date.
but now, due to fortuitous circumstance, i've run into two bottles of "Sci-Fit's" "19-Nor Androstack II" which contains:
2 capsules contain:
19-Nor Androstenedione 200mg
tribulus terrestris 250g
saw palmetto 200mg
chrysin (dihydroxyflavone) 200mg
zinc picolinate 50mg (333% RDA)
no thanks to the internet, shops, boards, forums. for nor-testosterone pro-hormones you internet communities SUCK!!!
i've got to do this. my little ectomorphic joints will love this stack. my only regret is the 4-AD (that's what the 4-androstenediol is, right?) and the tribulus. i wish my libido could be completely annihilated! i don't want to care, to want, to.. crave.. i understand the buddhist causes of suffering, the four noble truths.. no more!!!! NO!!!!!
i've got some methylated compounds which wouldn't really need the "ASR Sports" "DHB", which contains 6,7 dihydroxybergamottin (300mg per capsule!) to protect from destruction. i'm probably going to use it on this unmethylated, rare nor stack. that would be the best use of my dreaded cytochrome P450 microsomal enzyme inhibitor.
what i want to know is everyone's opinions/feelings about the 4-androstenediol and the 19-nors. i know the diol is better than the dione, but that both together is better than one or the other, making this a quality supplement. obviousl i won't even be using ZMA, i've got magnesium by itself so no prob.
19-nor takes a long time to kick in, right? so how long of a cycle would this be? what can i expect? i would like to know, by your own accounts, what i can attribute to the 4-ad and to the 19-nor. this stuff expires in the first month of 2007, so i'm basically set on this as my next cycle (i'm up for it, time-wise). i'm excited!
- 08-23-2006, 02:05 PM
those are really low doses. I dont believe dione + diol is better than just diol mg per mg. I dont think the nor is going to take that long to start working either. 4ad will work pretty quick. I would run it for 15 days. that should be 800mg of 4ad and 400mg of nordiol. still low doses. you should get some strength, weight gain and some water weight. depending on how powerful the chrysin is.
08-23-2006, 03:32 PM
your response on this stack's effects are comforting. i felt more optimism and energy this morning at work. i woke up early with more energy, not the best sleep (maybe the storm?). i only had a green tea extract pill (mostly EGCG). i know just this catechin, which boosts fatty acid fuel use, is a mild stimulant and can keep me up past bed time. basically anything that causes my body to burn fat will keep me up. but i felt like there was something more. was that 4-AD? i just got this green coffee extract in and had some of that, so the rest of the day is up for grabs.
but four a day? that's a lot of zinc. i'd have to take taurine with it if i wanted to assimilate all the zinc effectively. what's wrong with staying at the recommended dosage? i've got a light frame, and plenty of time. i don't need to get really buff, really fast.
i've seriously had good results with methasteron at 5mg up to 7.5mg per day, then the last few days at 10mg, on a two week cycle. the halodrol-50 was.. i just can't remember if it was 7 or 8 pills total, over 10-12 days.. but i gained 4 pounds after PCT (of equivalent length). i've got my own scale, and it is an old scale but it seems accurate. i'll be able to watch myself more carefully.
08-24-2006, 01:06 PM
I did not think about the zinc. thats a problem. keep in mind that 4ad and nor have to convert at a rate of about 15%. then the absorbtion on these as an oral is poor, about 15%. so at 2pills a day youre only getting about 4.5mg of test into your body. If you respond well to low doses then this might have an effect. I was taking 1200-1500mg of 4ad to get an effect.
08-25-2006, 04:24 PM
oh, yeah.. i'm gonna have to use the DHB (grapefruit extract) to inhibit p450 fo' sho'.
that means i can't be on stims (currently habituated to about 100-250mg caffeine and dabbling with light doses of homemade ma huang decoction for allergy season).
i'm laying off this stack until i can get more info, but i guess i'm wary of the zinc and will try to enhance absorption with the DHB. i wonder if i can use the EGCG to chelate to the zinc (is that what it gets? turmeric's curcumin chelates to copper.. ?) which would give me some fatty acid oxidation energy and so i could up my dose to three capsules a day? it's no problem breaking the capsules and mixing in the DHB powder, then mixing that in fat. i can prepare it ahead of time for my meals at work.. but i hate the idea of inhibiting my liver's drug and toxic-pollutant detoxification abilities, especially because i live and work in downtown (bike courier for about 20-30 minutes in the downtown area). man, this sucks!
i've been on the ergomax lmg for two days.. good strength at work (fridays are working out at work days as the grocery order comes in). more heat/thermogenesis. a bit of sweating, i'm not much of a sweater. nice mental "sides". only at 10mg/day. don't see much need for more, i wouldn't screw with methasteron at 10mg, after my initial dosing at fractions. halodrol-50 was always smooth and sophisticated, pleasant but not addictive pleasant. this ergo so far is quite nice.. i wonder if it gets better? i know the mental sides i feel within the first two days, that much i can tell very quickly about these legal anabolics. it's the week in, then the two and three weeks in of the cycle that intrigues me. but i'm going for the full 10mg, even though it's fairly anabolic, because it feels good and isn't a hypoglycemicizer. using Nizoral (1% ketoconazole) everyday, maybe i should use it twice a day and leave it on for more than 5 minutes? i start the shower by getting my head wet, then apply to my freshly buzzed head (1/4 inch) and leave on until done with the smelly mucous membranes (pits, crotch) and feet. but i can shower quickly.
09-12-2006, 01:17 PM
in spite of growing a nice juicy zit on the back of my right hand from a few days (foot-wetting) use of the 19-nor stack i went along with the ergomax lmg. just so i could get acquainted with it. i was going to do a 2-3 week cycle but it was cut short due to illness.
i really can't blame the illness on the estrogen suppression from the anabolic.. although it may have played a part. i shocked my body with some sauna time on a friday, so that may have been the beginning.. then a "friend" i was supposed to help move f***ed me over. the move was on sunday.. wasn't weak from anything, sunday.. just not in a good mood, nothing made me happy. i took 20mg synephrine that day, just to uplift myself mildly. i was about 10 days into my ergomax lmg cycle. what makes me angry is i called her a few hours before the move and asked her how much work there would be. she said "you don't want to know." which, given all of my previous experiences with moving i assumed would be a lot of stuff. it was a cool, wet, rainy day. not a hard rain, intermittent, mild rain. but i knew i'd heat up just fine with all the lifting. well, it turns out she was moving maybe 5 boxes, none of them heavy. and a little dresser. she had her boyfriend with her. they lit up cigarettes before moving. then they asked if i had any weed, complaining they hadn't had weed in a long while (i didn't have any, either). she had a car, fit a few boxes in at a time on a trip not more than a mile or so to the new location.
it sucked! i was totally chilly. not shaking, just not warm. i should have brought a good shirt. but no... i had to listen to her and assume that i would actually be working on what i only knew to be strenuous workouts (done at the right pace).
****in' b*tch. i'll never help her again.
so i fought the illness for about five days. only missed one day of work due to mental discomfort and disorientation. i normally would not get sick, certainly not this sick. the sauna was probably the biggest culprit. it was the perfect set-up, plus the crappy weather and the lying "friend's" non-workout move.
the good news is despite the illness i apparently kept all my "gains". since i got this rusty old scale from a yard sale i've been able to weigh myself at any time. over the 10-11 day cycle i gradually dosed up to 2 capsules. no sides. i did 3 one day, no sides that day or the next. very smooth product. not much appetite stimulation but it is there. i gained 2, maybe 2.5 pounds over the 10 days. regular lifting, slightly increasing workload a week into it. by the end, which of course i did not think was the end, i did a more strenuous workout than usual, whole-body 45 minute with some "supersetting" in order to get through the workout faster. one ergopharm AMP pill, just 70mg caffeine. but i respond well to it. still, the ergomax was good in my system, i was a high endurance anaerobic machine. of course heart rate was up, because prolonged anaerobic works the body very well in an aerobic-like fashion, too. strong to the very end, no neural fatigue. i did legs on the full-body session (of course!). that was in the beginning, too! squats and some deadlifts (for warm-up). even after the squats i was like a machine. great endurance and strength throughout when on light dose of stim and smooth ride of the ergomax lmg.
so i gained about two pounds in 10 days. first few days was about half capsule, then bumped up to one, then two, slowly gauging my response and tolerance to "sides", which were basically nonexistent. i didn't notice much libido, not much of the "turned-on" to anything, the enthusiasm. the halodrol and the methasteron (superdrol) were both good, fairly enthused and generally more optimistic. a light wave from underneath gently buoying me up throughout the day.. ergomax was similar, i'm just not rocked by the legal anabolics, i guess. m1a and first few days of even light ATD (novedex) would put me into aggression/irritability and a general funk, as well as orastan-e/prostanozol/mega-zol. i attribute the last few days of no additional subtle happiness to the gestating illness. i had a very effective short (2-3 day) post cycle therapy of 6-OXO, because i wanted my estrogen up as soon as possible and novedex xt and xtreme are too effective. i had an "anabolx plus" (pinnacle) for PCT's PCT, and helps rev up appetite and no AI inhibition. no anhedonia after PCT. no libido problems (would appreciate some). nothing bad to report. short, safe cycle.
ergomax lmg.. maybe i should be disappointed? after all, it WAS 10-11 days and a mere 2 pound gain. that's a pound every five days. i expect more from my legal anabolics. methasteron and m-1-a and halodrol-50 all gave me gains of about a pound for every 3.5 days. yeah, on second thought: ergomax lmg sucks! where were the sides? that's part of the fun! just a pound for every five days? what the hell am i supposed to do with that? grrrrr...
09-12-2006, 11:05 PM
last post written just before leaving for work. i guess i should be more forgiving.
no circadian rhythm disturbances. actually, quite the opposite. i got up early in the day with plenty of energy. at the end of the day (last 4 hours wake time) were pleasantly and appropriately tired and ready to fall asleep; it was a combination of regular exercise schedule and AAS supplementation. but it made me anabolic in a good way, easing me to sleep as well as it boosted me awake, ya know? i thought it might be too androgenic, in the way of keeping me awake. but no, it really boosted anabolism without keeping me up past my alloted waking hours. actually, given my propensity for 25+ hour sleep cycle, i'd say ergomax lmg is a better way of life than normal. boosting the anabolic processes in a non-invasive way, actually managing to facilitate somnambulistic processes.
ergomax LMG is a cool product. although it may not have survived as a continued presence from the generics like it's mate, phera-plex (DMT), it remains as a warm, fuzzy memory in at least one psychonaut's palatial dreamscape.
RIP, Ergomax LMG.
09-15-2006, 01:46 AM
In a previous episode of "19-Nor: A New Beginning"
Originally Posted by GokmogOriginally Posted by wastedwhiteboy2Well, i'm done with the ergomax lmg, and i'll be going back on to this unmethylated stuff with the upcoming expiration date (not stupid enough to assume it will suddenly lose much potency at that arbitrary date, just concerned about its age and gleeful about a pro-hormone that will be outright beneficial for my kind of body).Originally Posted by Gokmog
i really don't get zits on the back of my hand, so that has me excited. i look at the remains of the raspberry telepad on the back of my hand and a surge of excitement courses through me.. and i wonder... will this make me nice and oily all over? i have dry skin to begin with. hell, without non-aromatizing steroids and progestins in my system i'm thinking i could use more estrogen in my system given what i've learned through these kinds of boards about the wh*re-moans.
since it's unmethylated, surely i could run it for 3-4 weeks? i've got 120 capsules to a bottle, and i'm hoping i can do the recommended 2 a day. does anyone have opinions about safety of length of cycle? from my short, light cycles of methasteron and halodrol-50 i've bounced back very quickly and easily with light ATD (novedex xtreme + xt). the m-1-a i screwed up on the damn coconut oil MCT, so i don't even know how i would have done if i were normal. but i react strongly enough and recover quickly with light PCT. i've actually got quite a bit of acne on my lower face and throat, and haven't been doing that much lifting since i cut my ergomax cycle short by 4 days due to illness. some people have better ability to return to normal from a cycle, and i'm wondering if i'm one of them. i seem to be very dependent on physical activity for emotional health and energy anyway, maybe i just snap back into endogenous production from physical stimuli, with some help of the legal PCT products.
since these are pro-hormones, would it be prudent for me to take DHEA? i've got some 25mg capsules from MRM. i thought i'd use them for more intense work out days during my natural training and for cortisol countering experimentation, in addition to the non-hormonal anabolic stacks i've been contemplating.
questions are: 1) cycle length safety/advice? 2) prolonged zinc level advice? would taking copper sebacate with the zinc picolinate block it sufficiently due to mineral absorption antagonism? i've heard different forms of mineral supplements have different interactions with the synergy and antagonism. 3) does the chrysin look adequate, assuming the dose information is correct? this is for SHBG inhibition, right? i do have some avena sativa bulk powder, and also DS's "Activate".
big cat's pro-hormone FAQ says nor-diol is 3 times better at converting to the active target hormone, compared to nor-dione. but he also states that the 19-nor-4-androstenediol and 4-diol (in the section on "Nor-diol (19-Nor-4-androsten-3,17-diol)" compete for the same receptor, so maybe less pro-hormones really will have to be acceptable in the use of Sci-Fit's "19-Nor Andro-Stack II"? i'm referring to the second to last sentence in the second paragraph on nor-diol. he is referring to 4-ad when he writes "4-diol", right? (i cut and pasted all the relevant hormones and pro-hormones from his FAQ into my personal file on anabolic supplements when i bought the Androstack.) or maybe none of this matters, maybe i'll respond to it well enough. maybe i'll get zits on the back of BOTH hands, eh?
oh boy, i can't wait!
on a related note, does Big Cat's opinion that DHEA supplementation actually suppress endogenous testosterone production carry any weight at this point? i thought DHEA was one of the safer ways an aging male could boost endogenous testosterone levels? i know i read that from a Life Extension magazine. i don't see how it would suppress younger people.
i normally wouldn't get this product, not that i have experience with it or am an expert, just that i would rather get the individual parts and put it together myself, with the help of my top-notch team of "bros" (you guys). but, get this:
"you don't go on a pro-hormone cycle with the pro-hormones that you want. you go on a pro-hormone cycle with the pro-hormones that you HAVE."
well gosh golly geewillickers! all i've got is this "19-Nor Androstack II."
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