Citrulline Malate...sharp drop off of energy?

[david4zero8]

So i've been taking xtend for the past couple of weeks but noticed bloat and stomach problems with the product with anything more then 1 serving. Turns out it was the sucralose that has been causing me the problems, so i ordered some bulk bcaa's, glutamine, and citrulline malate in order to mix with one serving of xtend [15g of bcaa's, 4.5g of glutamine, 2g of citrullne malate, and i serving of xtend- 7g of bcaa's, 2.5g of glutamine, and 1g of citrulline malate]. I've been on this mixture the last couple of workouts and have not noticed any problems.

When switching over to this mixture of mine i have noticed something rather weird during my workouts. For the first 20 minutes or so i will have extreme energy, feeling like i cannot fatigue. About the 25 minute mark or so i will notice an INSTANT sharp drop off in energy. Finishing the workout then becomes a choir. I did not notice this while on 3 servings of xtend [had energy throughout the entire workout], nor did i notice this prior to the use of xtend or free form amino acids [fatigue would set in during the workout but it was more linear]. Could it be caused by the reduction of sugar, i believe xtend has 1g or sucralose per serving, or could it actually be the citrulline malate that's causing this problem? I'm at a lost at the moment.

 

[NO HYPE]

could it actually be the citrulline malate that's causing this problem? I'm at a lost at the moment.

Everybody's body has unique reactions, especially to home brews however, I don't think it's the citrulline, but rather the glutamine that's causing the problem. I personally would not use this particular mix but that's just me.

If sustained pumps and energy is what you want, then you need enhanced NO production. This is possible via arginine/citrulline/creatine and norvaline. This in turn increases ATP. (also add a quality B-complex along with NADH for peak performance)

If this were me, I would either make my own home brew, or try to find a good Creatine/NO product with L-norvaline (Nitrobolic Xtreme) or one without caffiene. Make sure that if you choose to home brew, that you incorporate L-norvaline into the mix. This will render the NO depleting enzyme arginase, useless. Thus increasing NO levels by up to 60%.

In any case you should forget about glutamine for pre workout and use it for post workout. L-glutamine is a major component/carrier of ammonia through and out of the body, and because ammonia is the suicide inhibitor of NO, you end up minimizing all of the advantages of NO production.

 

[david4zero8]

Everybody's body has unique reactions, especially to home brews however, I don't think it's the citrulline, but rather the glutamine that's causing the problem. I personally would not use this particular mix but that's just me.

If sustained pumps and energy is what you want, then you need enhanced NO production. This is possible via arginine/citrulline/creatine and norvaline. This in turn increases ATP. (also add a quality B-complex along with NADH for peak performance)

If this were me, I would either make my own home brew, or try to find a good Creatine/NO product with L-norvaline (Nitrobolic Xtreme) or one without caffiene. Make sure that if you choose to home brew, that you incorporate L-norvaline into the mix. This will render the NO depleting enzyme arginase, useless. Thus increasing NO levels by up to 60%.

In any case you should forget about glutamine for pre workout and use it for post workout. L-glutamine is a major component/carrier of ammonia through and out of the body, and because ammonia is the suicide inhibitor of NO, you end up minimizing all of the advantages of NO production.

Thanks for the reply. Everything i've added to my "homebrew" is found on the back of the Xtend label, excluding the Vitamin B6. So from what i understand, you are saying the glutamine is most likely the problem? Xtend has 2.5g of glutamine per serving in it. I did not experience this problem when i was supplementing with 3 servings of xtend. But then again, it's probably not the citrulline malate either seeing as the xtend has 1g of CM per serving.

 

[NO HYPE]

Thanks for the reply. Everything i've added to my "homebrew" is found on the back of the Xtend label, excluding the Vitamin B6. So from what i understand, you are saying the glutamine is most likely the problem? Xtend has 2.5g of glutamine per serving in it. I did not experience this problem when i was supplementing with 3 servings of xtend. But then again, it's probably not the citrulline malate either seeing as the xtend has 1g of CM per serving.

To be perfectly honest, what I stated was the actual science of it all but the reason you are actually having a problem, might not have anything at all to do with what we've discussed. I do know that the typical dosage of arginine is 3-5 grams, and that peak plasma levels last approximately 1-2 hours after oral administration. L-citrulline is the pre cursor to L-arginine. I try to look for mixes with both, but if just one than I would choose L-arginine.... Less conversion = Faster absorbtion rates. I use a Nitrobolic Xtreme and NO-Xplode mix but that isn't very economical really.... but it's damn effective. So play around a little bit and see what works for ya and let us know how it goes.

 

[david4zero8]

I was reading through the little FAQ writeup at bb.com about citrulline malate and found this portion rather interesting:

Unfortunately I think many of the companies currently marketing NO products are missing the boat by not including Citrulline Malate in the current crop of NO supplements. You see, many of Citrulline's functions stem primarily from its ability to increase plasma levels of Arginine endogenously (in the human body).4 And what is really so exciting about Citrulline is that it seems to increase plasma Arginine levels better than taking the amino acid Arginine itself.5 You read correctly!

Research has shown that supplementation of Citrulline raises Arginine levels more effectively than taking the same dose of straight Arginine. Keep in mind that Citrulline Malate's NO enhancing properties are just one of the unique benefits this nutrient offers to athletes. And if the enhanced pumps and improved nutrient delivery properties are the reason you are using Arginine based NO products, you need to pay attention to Citrulline Malate.

 

[jjohn]

Good post. I have been taking Purple Wraath at 2 doses a day, and never experienced problems. Now I orderes Xtend, and don't think I will have problems with it. I'll let ya guys know..

 

[NO HYPE]

I was reading through the little FAQ writeup at bb.com about citrulline malate and found this portion rather interesting:

Hey david4zero8, thanks for the nice words.

The post that you found on bb.com does not suprise me at all. I would be very interested to say the least, in hearing the explanation as to how L-citrulline (the precursor to L-arginine), can increase plasma L-arginine levels better than supplementation of L-arginine itself.

I would enjoy viewing this.... "research"

Untill then, you can check out this link that shows evidence on the contrary to what was stated at bb.com. (sorry but my old iMac sux and I can't post clickable links)

http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/265/6/H1965

The study stated that L-glutamine decreased L-arginine synthesis from extracellular L-citrulline by interfering with it's transport.

This means that L-glutamine interfered with the conversion of L-citrulline to L-arginine. So why bother worrying about conversion? If Nitric Oxide and L-citrulline are constantly generated from L-arginine, than why rely on suplementation of L-arginine's precursors vs. L-arginine itself?

 

[david4zero8]

Hey david4zero8, thanks for the nice words.

The post that you found on bb.com does not suprise me at all. I would be very interested to say the least, in hearing the explanation as to how L-citrulline (the precursor to L-arginine), can increase plasma L-arginine levels better than supplementation of L-arginine itself.

I would enjoy viewing this.... "research"

Untill then, you can check out this link that shows evidence on the contrary to what was stated at bb.com. (sorry but my old iMac sux and I can't post clickable links)

Regulation of L-arginine synthesis from L-citrulline by L-glutamine in endothelial cells -- Wu and Meininger 265 (6): 1965 -- AJP - Heart and Circulatory Physiology

The study stated that L-glutamine decreased L-arginine synthesis from extracellular L-citrulline by interfering with it's transport.

This means that L-glutamine interfered with the conversion of L-citrulline to L-arginine. So why bother worrying about conversion? If Nitric Oxide and L-citrulline are constantly generated from L-arginine, than why rely on suplementation of L-arginine's precursors vs. L-arginine itself?

Interesting. I'll have to read through the study you just posted.

Here's the two referrence text cited by the author of the article i posted above:
4.) Dhanakoti, S. N. et al, Am. J. Physiol. 259:E437-E442, (1990)
5.) Yearick, E.S. et al, (1967)

I have not looked these studies.

I would post the link to the actual article on bb.com, but it's to their Product and Info page so i do not think i'm allowed to do so.